Mitch Marner "waiting for something good from you" edition part III

[HarryLime]

for me it's all about the last 3 playoff series. idec about this regular season. how is he going to learn to take a body check or not go flying when he gets pushed? i feel like he could fix his shot and learn to make teams pay when they give him space and take his passing lanes away.

 

[Riverfront]

play in traffic; either you can or can't. Brad Marchand can mitch marner can't.

 

[613Leafer]

Everything Holland said was very reasonable. And if Marner had signed a reasonable contract, fans would have reasonable expectations.

Unfortunately for Marner, he signed a remarkably UN reasonable contract. So fan expectations are correctly unreasonable.

He did it to himself. I feel not even the slightest amount of sympathy.

Yea, I get what Holland is trying to say. But it also completely deflects blame from Marner and Dubas onto the fans, and makes it seem like this is strictly a problem fans created.

Look around the league. The Marner and Matthews contracts, especially relative to the contracts signed before the contracts, are head and shoulders above what you'd expect. Matthews contract gets much more of a pass because he's the more dominant player, but his contract isnt good either.

If you use Pastrnak, Gaudreau, Tarasenko, Kucherov, Draisaitl, etc as recent comparisons, or even go further back to guys like Kane, Stamkos, etc and extrapolate to the modern cap ceiling, you don't get ANYWHERE close to 10.9M X 6 years for Marner. Frankly, 6 years X 9.5M would have been noticeably higher than the market suggested, so what he ended up with was ridiculously above what the market suggested.

I don't think fans in general expected a hometown discount. If he had signed a "fair" deal that aligned with the market, he would have faced substantially less pressure/criticism. We'd have had more capspace to improve the depth on the team, and he probably would personally be playing better with less pressure on him.

It's a fine line though, because players certainly deserve criticism at times, but things can get a bit toxic/personal. Though at the end of the day, the root cause of these issues are things Marner and Dubas did, not the fans.

 

[Knies iT]

Yea, I get what Holland is trying to say. But it also completely deflects blame from Marner and Dubas onto the fans, and makes it seem like this is strictly a problem fans created.

Look around the league. The Marner and Matthews contracts, especially relative to the contracts signed before the contracts, are head and shoulders above what you'd expect. Matthews contract gets much more of a pass because he's the more dominant player, but his contract isnt good either.

If you use Pastrnak, Gaudreau, Tarasenko, Kucherov, Draisaitl, etc as recent comparisons, or even go further back to guys like Kane, Stamkos, etc and extrapolate to the modern cap ceiling, you don't get ANYWHERE close to 10.9M X 6 years for Marner. Frankly, 6 years X 9.5M would have been noticeably higher than the market suggested, so what he ended up with was ridiculously above what the market suggested.

I don't think fans in general expected a hometown discount. If he had signed a "fair" deal that aligned with the market, he would have faced substantially less pressure/criticism. We'd have had more capspace to improve the depth on the team, and he probably would personally be playing better with less pressure on him.

It's a fine line though, because players certainly deserve criticism at times, but things can get a bit toxic/personal. Though at the end of the day, the root cause of these issues are things Marner and Dubas did, not the fans.

The fans are part of the reason this team's curse will only worsen.

This fanbase cannot handle a rebuild. They cannot handle the ups and downs of building towards an era of success.

Eventually, the constant eating alive of its own players (Marner, Kessel, Gardiner, etc.) and the general vitriol/chronic negativity towards the team will drive even hometown products from wanting to play here, if it already hasn't. Don't let the pessimists fool you that they're "keeping it real!!" - they'll torch the next management team, they'll find a new scapegoat, they'll point the finger somewhere else. That's what miserable people do. Been on this board long enough to see the cycle.

Fans think by dumping on a guy like Marner daily they're "holding him accountable"

 

[kevsh]

If you want to get a sense of a player, see how they respond after a devastating loss/poor outing, etc.

Last year the Oilers got swept out of the playoffs in a big upset. Judging from how Connor and Leon are playing right now, I'd say they're pretty angry about last year and are taking it out on their opponents. They have carried their team to a 5-0 start. No guarantee anything will change next spring for them in terms of playoff success, of course, but that's how you want your stars and team overall to respond.

Meanwhile, in Leafland ...

 

[ShaneFalco]

The fans are part of the reason this team's curse will only worsen.

This fanbase cannot handle a rebuild. They cannot handle the ups and downs of building towards an era of success.

Eventually, the constant eating alive of its own players (Marner, Kessel, Gardiner, etc.) and the general vitriol/chronic negativity towards the team will drive even hometown products from wanting to play here, if it already hasn't. Don't let the pessimists fool you that they're "keeping it real!!" - they'll torch the next management team, they'll find a new scapegoat, they'll point the finger somewhere else. That's what miserable people do. Been on this board long enough to see the cycle.

Fans think by dumping on a guy like Marner daily they're "holding him accountable"

This blame the fans thing is such nonsense. A player could be a hero here simply giving it his all. It's a cycle of losing and terrible management/decisions most see

 

[Apex Predator]

The fans are part of the reason this team's curse will only worsen.

This fanbase cannot handle a rebuild. They cannot handle the ups and downs of building towards an era of success.

Eventually, the constant eating alive of its own players (Marner, Kessel, Gardiner, etc.) and the general vitriol/chronic negativity towards the team will drive even hometown products from wanting to play here, if it already hasn't. Don't let the pessimists fool you that they're "keeping it real!!" - they'll torch the next management team, they'll find a new scapegoat, they'll point the finger somewhere else. That's what miserable people do. Been on this board long enough to see the cycle.

Fans think by dumping on a guy like Marner daily they're "holding him accountable"

I think we did pretty well and accepted a rebuild when it started. What’s going on now has nothing to do with that rebuild or ups and down of building a successful era.

Dubas dropped the ball and him being so stuck on this core has put them in this position.

 

[NightTrain1]

The fans are part of the reason this team's curse will only worsen.

This fanbase cannot handle a rebuild. They cannot handle the ups and downs of building towards an era of success.

Eventually, the constant eating alive of its own players (Marner, Kessel, Gardiner, etc.) and the general vitriol/chronic negativity towards the team will drive even hometown products from wanting to play here, if it already hasn't. Don't let the pessimists fool you that they're "keeping it real!!" - they'll torch the next management team, they'll find a new scapegoat, they'll point the finger somewhere else. That's what miserable people do. Been on this board long enough to see the cycle.

Fans think by dumping on a guy like Marner daily they're "holding him accountable"

That's the nature of the business of sports and it really has nothing to do with "this fanbase". It's every fanbase in every sport around the world. Toronto's fanbase seems to standout here because its in Canada, the base is huge and the Leafs havent had any semblance of success in 54 years.

It's not just pessimists here anymore. This has been going on for so long now that it is turning everyone negative from moderate right up to the happy joy club. If this team had made the 3rd round like they should have in basically a "gimmie" season things would be different to a large degree.

BTW, how long should a rebuild take exactly? Reilly has been here since 2014, Nylander and Babcock were here in 2015 and the flood of talent came in around then too. One would believe with top of the league type talent making 10+ million a year that we should have seen even just 1 playoff success in 6 years.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Well, somebody's gotta' hold him accountable to the level of play expected from an 11 million dollar player. If management would just do it then the fans wouldn't have to.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

The fans are part of the reason this team's curse will only worsen.

This fanbase cannot handle a rebuild. They cannot handle the ups and downs of building towards an era of success.

Eventually, the constant eating alive of its own players (Marner, Kessel, Gardiner, etc.) and the general vitriol/chronic negativity towards the team will drive even hometown products from wanting to play here, if it already hasn't. Don't let the pessimists fool you that they're "keeping it real!!" - they'll torch the next management team, they'll find a new scapegoat, they'll point the finger somewhere else. That's what miserable people do. Been on this board long enough to see the cycle.

Fans think by dumping on a guy like Marner daily they're "holding him accountable"

Huh?

Leaf fans were perfectly fine with the rebuild. In fact, leaf fans were SCREAMING for a rebuild and were ecstatic when Shanahan said they're doing one. It was actually management that prematurely ended the rebuild (that fans were 100% fine with) after the rookie team snuck into the playoffs.

Now, the reason that you see a cycle of scapegoats and finger pointing is because the team we follow is the biggest humiliation of the league. They not only always fail... but they do so in embarrassing fashion. You do know we have the longest cup drought and longest playoff series win drought, right? THAT'S why people are angry and point fingers. Not the nonsense you're talking about.

And I think the Marner bashing will actually help the team. The message has been sent loud and clear... if you demand to be paid above market value, you better DAMN WELL perform to your contract or your life will be hell here.

 

[Knies iT]

Huh?

Leaf fans were perfectly fine with the rebuild. In fact, leaf fans were SCREAMING for a rebuild and were ecstatic when Shanahan said they're doing one. It was actually management that prematurely ended the rebuild (that fans were 100% fine with) after the rookie team snuck into the playoffs.

Now, the reason that you see a cycle of scapegoats and finger pointing is because the team we follow is the biggest humiliation of the league. They not only always fail... but they do so in embarrassing fashion. You do know we have the longest cup drought and longest playoff series win drought, right? THAT'S why people are angry and point fingers. Not the nonsense you're talking about.

And I think the Marner bashing will actually help the team. The message has been sent loud and clear... if you demand to be paid above market value, you better DAMN WELL perform to your contract or your life will be hell here.

This blame the fans thing is such nonsense. A player could be a hero here simply giving it his all. It's a cycle of losing and terrible management/decisions most see

6 games into the season and people are calling for scorched earth rebuilds (2.0) and cleaning house. The fanbase has severe disappointment fatigue to the point where they overreact to every minuscule loss. "It's not 6 games it's 2+ years!!" after winning the division...

This fanbase has always eaten it's own, are you new? Even a "hero" like Sundin was a whipping boy early in his career. The actual problem is most of you aren't NHL fans, you're Leaf fans only, and don't even watch out of town games. Go look at the most recent rebuilds league wide and point me to a faster success story out of VAN, EDM, NYR, NJD, BUF, ANA, LA, OTT, DET, AZ.

Accepting the rebuild and jumping for joy is one thing when you compile a bunch of shiny new toys - you people cannot handle the process and don't realize how long it can take. It's funny how the people most opposed to this comment are the biggest offenders.

The on-ice product and managerial decisions are obviously 1A/1B to blame, but the obsessive hate from the fanbase will continue to drive hometown players away from here.

 

[supermann_98]

It's all about concessions for the top guys

Exactly, soon as Lou moved on they loosened the facial hair rules, now they loosen the dress code rules. The inmates are running the asylum as they say

 

[JT AM da real deal]

It has not even started to get bad for Mitch yet .. wait til Saturday night at home .. then he will start to really feel da heat it on da bench .. team would be better off not dressing him .. he won't be able to handle it .. it is gonna get really really ugly for Mitch and Dubie and Keefer

 

[Cor]

Exactly, soon as Lou moved on they loosened the facial hair rules, now they loosen the dress code rules. The inmates are running the asylum as they say

Thoughts on the dress code is valid, though it has zero affect on the ice, but it's a professional setting so professional attire should be worn, that's my opinion, but I don't really care either way. Show up in a tux, or show up in a hoodie and sweats, just get the job done.

Restricting facial hair was always dumb. I appreciate Lou's thought process behind it, but there is a reason no other management team in hockey implements that.

 

[Dreakmur]

Thoughts on the dress code is valid, though it has zero affect on the ice, but it's a professional setting so professional attire should be worn, that's my opinion, but I don't really care either way. Show up in a tux, or show up in a hoodie and sweats, just get the job done.

Restricting facial hair was always dumb. I appreciate Lou's thought process behind it, but there is a reason no other management team in hockey implements that.

It’s about discipline. It doesn’t really matter what the rule is - the point is to get the players to buy in. If the players aren’t willing to shave or wear a tie, imagine how unwilling they are to do the actually hard stuff.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Arizona coyotes have a relaxed dress code and were the first team to implement the rule. How about you keep up with the times buddy.

Not sure how significant this dress code deal is, but Arizona isn't exactly the best example to follow.

 

[ShaneFalco]

6 games into the season and people are calling for scorched earth rebuilds (2.0) and cleaning house. The fanbase has severe disappointment fatigue to the point where they overreact to every minuscule loss. "It's not 6 games it's 2+ years!!" after winning the division...

This fanbase has always eaten it's own, are you new? Even a "hero" like Sundin was a whipping boy early in his career. The actual problem is most of you aren't NHL fans, you're Leaf fans only, and don't even watch out of town games. Go look at the most recent rebuilds league wide and point me to a faster success story out of VAN, EDM, NYR, NJD, BUF, ANA, LA, OTT, DET, AZ.

Accepting the rebuild and jumping for joy is one thing when you compile a bunch of shiny new toys - you people cannot handle the process and don't realize how long it can take. It's funny how the people most opposed to this comment are the biggest offenders.

The on-ice product and managerial decisions are obviously 1A/1B to blame, but the obsessive hate from the fanbase will continue to drive hometown players away from here.

Not even worth a response - "you people"

 

[francis246]

1 point, ONE GOD DAMN POINT IN SEVEN, SEVEN GAMES. Enough said. Dude's a locker room cancer and a joke. Plays softer than cottonelle tissue and costs way too much for what he provides. Get his ass out of here and trade him for a 1st line D

speculation at best. Again I refer to people who know best. Both on Steve dangle podcast and on overdrive. They made great points yesterday. Out of the 3 kids Marner definitely cares the most. The pressure will always be the most on him because He’s from Toronto. He can’t escape the pressure. He lives here year r Are people forgetting Matthews took a year less? Matthews is the one that gripped the Leafs by the balls if you really think about it.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Thoughts on the dress code is valid, though it has zero affect on the ice, but it's a professional setting so professional attire should be worn, that's my opinion, but I don't really care either way. Show up in a tux, or show up in a hoodie and sweats, just get the job done.

Restricting facial hair was always dumb. I appreciate Lou's thought process behind it, but there is a reason no other management team in hockey implements that.

I wouldn't care at all if these guys earned concessions. They've been given everything they want, and the GM has backed them almost to a ridiculous level. They can't even put in a full game effort.
Agree with the facial hair thing though that's nuts

 

[Gabriel426]

It’s about discipline. It doesn’t really matter what the rule is - the point is to get the players to buy in. If the players aren’t willing to shave or wear a tie, imagine how unwilling they are to do the actually hard stuff.

It all started with the little things.
Over the summer an Avs player said something about Mack’s diet and how he wanted his whole team to follow that. To me it shows Mack wants to win and will go beyond just hitting the gym to prepare himself and the team to win.

 

[ShaneFalco]

From mapleleafhotstove - I would add in the first game JT went back to play his former team. No effort, no respect:

We need no reminder of the Toronto Maple Leafs’ recent history (recent as in just the last year and a half) in these “it’d sure be embarrassing if they lost!” games, but I guess we’ll do it briefly anyway because game previews require us to write words in them:

• The David Ayres game (which was flaunted by the Canes organization as a lovely cherry-on-top of the Leafs‘ shit sundae on Monday)
• The time when the Leafs led 3-0 in Game 3 vs. CBJ with a chance to take a stranglehold over the series, lost 4-3 in OT, and nearly lost the series in four after a horrible Game 4 performance in which they staged a miraculous 3-0 comeback at the end, only to get shut out in a series-deciding Game 5
• The time when the Leafs were leading 5-1 against Ottawa at home and lost 6-5 in overtime
• The time when the Leafs went into Vancouver as the Canucks were returning from a Covid outbreak that ravaged the team for over three weeks and lost both games
• The time when the Leafs led 3-1 in the series against the Habs and somehow lost three in a row including another shutout loss (basically) in a series-deciding game
• Literally four days ago when the Leafs lost 7-1 to the Wilkes-Barre Penguins

 

[francis246]

Not sure how significant this dress code deal is, but Arizona isn't exactly the best example to follow.

Do you think the leafs give a shit what Arizona does? Organizations operate independently. There was obviously an internal discussion within the Maple Leafs

 

[Dreakmur]

Do you think the leafs give a shit what Arizona does? Organizations operate independently. There was obviously an internal discussion within the Maple Leafs

In that case, they independently made a terrible decision.

 

[Gabriel426]

speculation at best. Again I refer to people who know best. Both on Steve dangle podcast and on overdrive. They made great points yesterday. Out of the 3 kids Marner definitely cares the most. The pressure will always be the most on him because He’s from Toronto. He can’t escape the pressure. He lives here year r Are people forgetting Matthews took a year less? Matthews is the one that gripped the Leafs by the balls if you really think about it.

AM’s term is the problem but it is a 8 yr contract, the AAV will be the same. Then how’s that a problem. We are speculating AM will leave after his contract like JT but what if he doesn’t and extend like Stamkos, Toews, Kane, Kopitar, Sid, Ovie…. The point is that whether AM signs for 4,5,6,7 or 8 yrs, you know his AAV will be between McD and Eichel.
Now, he is also not performing and I think Marner is getting more criticism mainly due to his contract.
Having said that every Leafs with the exception of Spezza, Campbell and even Hutch(as he should not even be in the league but if a team offer you a spot, you just can’t say no), are complete crap over the past few games. There is literally no structure and no urgency. Most of all, the players can’t wait for their shift to be over before getting scored on. That’s completely unacceptable.
As for Marner, to me it was never about he cares or not bc any person getting paid to do a job should care, or his contract- a bad contract is only an underperforming contract, or his words-bc all words are empty words unless back by results, it has more to do with the way he is playing the game, he looks for the highlight reel play all the time instead of just keeping the game simple. He looks for those highlight reel plays bc he wants to win fans back and get critics off his back, but all he needed to do is help the team win and produce.
Keep the game simple, finish your checks, make simple passes, shoot on net when there is a chance, don’t give up on any plays. If a non hockey playing fan can make these observation, I really don’t understand why someone as talented as Marner just couldn’t see it.

 

[NinjaKick]

They will probably trade Nylander before Marner.

I use to start fires as a kid. I think I might get back into that hobby if we trade Nylander.