Mitch Marner (Trade or Keep)?

[Stephen]

The empirical results of the past 3 seasons show Marner to be better. He's already ahead before even getting to things like elite defensive and penalty killing impacts - which of course teams care about. The issue is that you're focusing exclusively on team accomplishments and hitting arbitrary single-season milestones to argue a Marner inferiority narrative, while ignoring 99% of the relevant information and context.

I’m not making the case that Marner is inferior to anyone here. I’m saying they belong to the same tier and should be respected as such.

It’s easy and simple enough to suggest all these players belong in a similar tier and have different strengths and weaknesses to one another to explain the variance in defensive ability, goal scoring, championship winning. Pastrnak came in 2nd in Hart voting. Marner 3rd in Selke. Rantanen was 6th in Hart.

Claiming Marner superiority is just so far off the mark it isn’t funny.

 

[IPS]

Where abouts are we ranking Marner anyway in regards to his 2-way game and how it compares to some of the best from the past?

Where would Marner stack up against a prime Zetterberg? Have we seen Marner do something like Zetterberg has done in the playoffs yet?

 

[Stephen]

Where abouts are we ranking Marner anyway in regards to his 2-way game and how it compares to some of the best from the past?

Where would Marner stack up against a prime Zetterberg? Have we seen Marner do something like Zetterberg has done in the playoffs yet?

Marner’s defense can also take the next level by assuming more centerman responsibilities and being an actual face off option when he’s in a defensive posture. The guy took 4 faceoffs last year.

Compare this to the inferior Rantanen, who is being developed as a center option. He took over 400 faceoffs. Brayden Point, who is a more pure center, but arguably also inferior, took over 900 faceoffs. Even the inferior David Pastrnak took more faceoffs by accident.

If Marner is going to develop into a Zetterberg, he’s going to have to add that to his game.

 

[supermann_98]

Marner’s defense can also take the next level by assuming more centerman responsibilities and being an actual face off option when he’s in a defensive posture. The guy took 4 faceoffs last year.

Compare this to the inferior Rantanen, who is being developed as a center option. He took over 400 faceoffs. Brayden Point, who is a more pure center, but arguably also inferior, took over 900 faceoffs. Even the inferior David Pastrnak took more faceoffs by accident.

If Marner is going to develop into a Zetterberg, he’s going to have to add that to his game.

*Waiting for Dekes long-winded response to why winning faceoffs has no bearing on being a great or Selke nominated forward, and now that Bergeron is retired it's a mere formality that Mitch will win that trophy until he retires

 

[Dekes For Days]

I’m not making the case that Marner is inferior to anyone here. I’m saying they belong to the same tier and should be respected as such.

You're trying to drag Marner down to a lesser tier and lump him in with another group of players, despite him factually being better. You're doing so by pointing exclusively at team accomplishments (which has absolutely nothing to do with individual player quality), and pointing at times they've hit some meaningless single-season mark (which is not only a poor representation of production ability in the first place, but especially so when you're crafting those arbitrary marks to specifically exclude Marner and his strengths). At the end of the 2021-2022 regular season, this little game you're playing would have concluded that Gaudreau, Huberdeau, and Kreider were better players than Mackinnon. It's misleading.
Meanwhile, you're ignoring and dismissing the bigger picture of their production, and literally all other impacts, information, and context.

 

[ACC1224]

I’m not making the case that Marner is inferior to anyone here. I’m saying they belong to the same tier and should be respected as such.

It’s easy and simple enough to suggest all these players belong in a similar tier and have different strengths and weaknesses to one another to explain the variance in defensive ability, goal scoring, championship winning. Pastrnak came in 2nd in Hart voting. Marner 3rd in Selke. Rantanen was 6th in Hart.

Claiming Marner superiority is just so far off the mark it isn’t funny.

This is the rational view. Great players, all of them.

 

[ToneDog]

Game 7 OT, who do you want on your team. 50+ goal scorers Ranta, Pasta, Point, Matthews or Muffin Mitch ??

 

[ACC1224]

Game 7 OT, who do you want on your team. 50+ goal scorers Ranta, Pasta, Point, Matthews or Muffin Mitch ??

Any of them.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Game 7 OT, who do you want on your team. 50+ goal scorers Ranta, Pasta, Point, Matthews or Muffin Mitch ??

All I can say for sure is that M&M are my 4th and 5th choices.

 

[Stephen]

You're trying to drag Marner down to a lesser tier and lump him in with another group of players, despite him factually being better. You're doing so by pointing exclusively at team accomplishments (which has absolutely nothing to do with individual player quality), and pointing at times they've hit some meaningless single-season mark (which is not only a poor representation of production ability in the first place, but especially so when you're crafting those arbitrary marks to specifically exclude Marner and his strengths). At the end of the 2021-2022 regular season, this little game you're playing would have concluded that Gaudreau, Huberdeau, and Kreider were better players than Mackinnon. It's misleading.
Meanwhile, you're ignoring and dismissing the bigger picture of their production, and literally all other impacts, information, and context.

Yes, I am trying to “drag” Marner down into a lesser tier of multiple Stanley Cup winners, 50 and 60 goal scorers, 100 and 110 point producers who have also played on better regular season teams than Toronto.

 

[GoonieFace]

You're trying to drag Marner down to a lesser tier and lump him in with another group of players, despite him factually being better. You're doing so by pointing exclusively at team accomplishments (which has absolutely nothing to do with individual player quality), and pointing at times they've hit some meaningless single-season mark (which is not only a poor representation of production ability in the first place, but especially so when you're crafting those arbitrary marks to specifically exclude Marner and his strengths). At the end of the 2021-2022 regular season, this little game you're playing would have concluded that Gaudreau, Huberdeau, and Kreider were better players than Mackinnon. It's misleading.
Meanwhile, you're ignoring and dismissing the bigger picture of their production, and literally all other impacts, information, and context.

At least you are consistent, consistently wrong, but consistent

 

[leafs in five]

Game 7 OT, who do you want on your team. 50+ goal scorers Ranta, Pasta, Point, Matthews or Muffin Mitch ??

Rantanen and Pastrnak were both on the losing side of game 7s last season. Pastrnak's team lost in OT, Rantanen was on the ice for the GWG. oh well

 

[Arzak]

All I can say for sure is that M&M are my 4th and 5th choices.

I might gamble on Matthews but I don't get the Marner instead of Pasta angle, not even from biased fans.

61 goals - 13 GWG, 113 points (46 more than the second Marchand) leading Bruins to a historical regular season ( which by Marner fans should mean something). He was second in Hart voting,second in Rocket and third for Art Ross trophy.

But forget that for a moment, because he already got major hardware in Rocket he won.

Even if you disregard playoffs how is any of this comparable to 3rd in Selke- which let's face it, is rather minor award compared to 3 mentioned regular season trophies?

PK is great, maybe it's worth all the money.

At the same time,why is our PK average af? with the best PK player on the planet? Stop putting three pylons on PK with Mitch ffs !!!

Edit: One led his team to the historical regular season with his scoring, and the other pushed our PK to 11th in the league by virtue of his elite PKing.

 

[IPS]

This is the rational view. Great players, all of them.

And mitch might honestly be the best of all of them.

 

[Arzak]

And mitch might honestly get paid the best of all of them.

You might be right for once.

 

[IPS]

You might be right for once.

Personally i have Pasta ahead but i dont get bent of shape if they wanna take marner.

 

[Stephen]

Personally i have Pasta ahead but i dont get bent of shape if they wanna take marner.

If we went with the in-house Matthews vs Marner comparison as a starting point, I think the general consensus is Matthews is a more important player for the franchise as an elite goal scorer and center, but Marner has closed the gap at times, is an excellent defensive player, controls the game via playmaking and elevating scorers around him (Tavares, Matthews, van Riemsdyk).

When you take this comparison to Point, Rantanen and Pastrnak, they tend to be a little more on the Matthews side as goal scorers than Marner, but it’s not a perfect comparison. Each one has 50+ goal scoring capability.

Marner is a better defensive player than the others, having finished as high as 3rd for the Selke. However, there’s also a positional gradient to consider for the other 3. One is a natural center (Point), one is center capable (Rantanen) and one is a natural, pure winger (Pastrnak).

So you already can’t compare a primary playmaking winger with defensive ability to 1 sniping center, 1 winger center hybrid who has a big body Matthews type presence and a pure sniping winger.

Finally, I’m not going to touch playoffs track record or contracts. Merely to indicate all four guys are in the same tier.

 

[ToneDog]

If we went with the in-house Matthews vs Marner comparison as a starting point, I think the general consensus is Matthews is a more important player for the franchise as an elite goal scorer and center, but Marner has closed the gap at times, is an excellent defensive player, controls the game via playmaking and elevating scorers around him (Tavares, Matthews, van Riemsdyk).

When you take this comparison to Point, Rantanen and Pastrnak, they tend to be a little more on the Matthews side as goal scorers than Marner, but it’s not a perfect comparison. Each one has 50+ goal scoring capability.

Marner is a better defensive player than the others, having finished as high as 3rd for the Selke. However, there’s also a positional gradient to consider for the other 3. One is a natural center (Point), one is center capable (Rantanen) and one is a natural, pure winger (Pastrnak).

So you already can’t compare a primary playmaking winger with defensive ability to 1 sniping center, 1 winger center hybrid who has a big body Matthews type presence and a pure sniping winger.

Finally, I’m not going to touch playoffs track record or contracts. Merely to indicate all four guys are in the same tier.

I don't know about you but I'll take a 50+ goal/100+ point player over a winger who can barely put up 30 goals and 100 points. Factor in $11m AAV for Marner and it is no contest. f*** the Selke.

 

[Arzak]

If we went with the in-house Matthews vs Marner comparison as a starting point, I think the general consensus is Matthews is a more important player for the franchise as an elite goal scorer and center, but Marner has closed the gap at times, is an excellent defensive player, controls the game via playmaking and elevating scorers around him (Tavares, Matthews, van Riemsdyk).

When you take this comparison to Point, Rantanen and Pastrnak, they tend to be a little more on the Matthews side as goal scorers than Marner, but it’s not a perfect comparison. Each one has 50+ goal scoring capability.

Marner is a better defensive player than the others, having finished as high as 3rd for the Selke. However, there’s also a positional gradient to consider for the other 3. One is a natural center (Point), one is center capable (Rantanen) and one is a natural, pure winger (Pastrnak).

So you already can’t compare a primary playmaking winger with defensive ability to 1 sniping center, 1 winger center hybrid who has a big body Matthews type presence and a pure sniping winger.

Finally, I’m not going to touch playoffs track record or contracts. Merely to indicate all four guys are in the same tier.

How is Matthews being more important than Marner justifying the rest of your spam? Asking for a friend.

Pasta eclipsed Matthews best season and is still a whole Tier below with Marner?


Matthews is the same tier as Pasta .
Point and Rantanen are Tier below.

Marner is 3rd in Selke

 

[francis246]

And mitch might honestly be the best of all of them.

I think pure talent wise as an all around player, Mitch is better/more skilled than all but it’s hard to not want a guy like Pasta or Point in the context of having em on your team. Both can get you 40 or 50 goals.

 

[Stephen]

How is Matthews being more important than Marner justifying the rest of your spam? Asking for a friend.

Pasta eclipsed Matthews best season and is still a whole Tier below with Marner?


Matthews is the same tier as Pasta .
Point and Rantanen are Tier below.

Marner is 3rd in Selke

You’ll notice I didn’t rank Matthews at all with that group other than to say if it’s commonly held belief that Matthews ranks higher than Marner within the Toronto… then how can Marner be a tier ahead of a group of guys who are closer to Matthews as 50 goal scorers and 100 plus point players.

 

[supermann_98]

Rantanen and Pastrnak were both on the losing side of game 7s last season. Pastrnak's team lost in OT, Rantanen was on the ice for the GWG. oh well

Ok now let's talk about Mitch's game 7 performances

 

[leafs in five]

Ok now let's talk about Mitch's game 7 performances

ok sure haven't done that in a while

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

The Leafs should just trade Marner before he holds out for Matthews money again.

It's comment like this: "it's definitely a team sport, you need everyone out there, and we all know that we need to be better" and this: "It's not just four guys on our team. It's a full team effort ... we know we all gotta be better." that make me think the Leafs would be better off without this unaccountable loser anyway.

It's so hard to believe anyone making that kind of money to be a leader would throw his teammates under the bus like that. Marner continues to insist everyone shoulders the blame equally when they lose. Even though the core four suck up the vast majority of the money, ice time, and power play opportunity.

With elite money comes elite responsibility.

Marner burdened himself with that contract. It's his cross to bear. If he can't own up to everything that goes along with it then why is he even on the team?

A lack of accountability is a damn good reason to trade this guy.

 

[Arzak]

Now that we know what #34 got

12.5 x 6 years for Mitch