Mitch Marner (Trade or Keep)?

[Stephen]

I wonder if it's possible to talk about Marner without going through the same rinse and repeat of people dismissing the impacts he brings and dragging him through the mud because he justifiably gets paid more than objectively worse and less valuable players?

When you compare Marner to Point, Rantanen and Pastrnak and try to make the specious claim that he’s superior to all of them… and then realize they have 3x Stanley Cups, 2x 50 goal and 1x 60 goal seasons, 6x 90 point seasons and 2x 100 point seasons between them… you are not doing Marner any favours. Why do you need to stake the claim that he’s better than them when they are all in the class of player?

 

[Stephen]

What's sneaky about it?

Do you wanna go the 5 years from 2019-2023?

They both got 1.22 PPG over that span.

Your statement of Pastrnak "not matching" Marner's production remains laughable.

Nevermind Marner, Pastrnak just leapfrogged Matthews career highs in points and goals last year… but of course that’s inadmissible.

 

[Dekes For Days]

What's sneaky about it?
Do you wanna go the 5 years from 2019-2023?
They both got 1.22 PPG over that span.
Your statement of Pastrnak "not matching" Marner's production remains laughable.

My statement was that Marner produced better over the past 3 years, which is true.
I also said that Marner brings things on top of production that Pastrnak doesn't, which is also true.
I don't think going far back to include years where there was a significant disparity between developmental status and opportunity to be very appropriate.

When you compare Marner to Point, Rantanen and Pastrnak and try to make the specious claim that he’s superior to all of them… and then realize they have 3x Stanley Cups, 2x 50 goal and 1x 60 goal seasons, 6x 90 point seasons and 2x 100 point seasons between them… you are not doing Marner any favours. Why do you need to stake the claim that he’s better than them when they are all in the class of player?

Why do you need to stake the claim that he's in the same class of player with players that are in a class below by refusing to look beyond team successes and arbitrary single-season milestones hit?

 

[Stephen]

My statement was that Marner produced better over the past 3 years, which is true.
I also said that Marner brings things on top of production that Pastrnak doesn't, which is also true.
I don't think going far back to include years where there was a significant disparity between developmental status and opportunity to be very appropriate.

Why do you need to stake the claim that he's in the same class of player with players that are in a class below by refusing to look beyond team successes and arbitrary single-season milestones hit?

Excuse me, 3 Stanley Cups won by 2 different players, 3 separate 50 goal seasons by 3 separate players, 1 60 goal season, 6 separate seasons of 90 point seasons and 2 separate 100 point seasons would indicate a consistent level of high end play by each of Rantanen, Point and Pastrnak beyond “arbitrary milestones.” These guys are hitting goal scoring, team based championships and raw points at a level Marner hasn’t seen. Boston, Colorado and Tampa each have Presidents Trophies so they’re pushing their teams to regular season heights Toronto has not achieved. All we have in this town are regular seasons.

Saying Marner is the same class of these players is a compliment, not an argument.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Excuse me, 3 Stanley Cups won by 2 different players, 3 separate 50 goal seasons by 3 separate players, 1 60 goal season, 6 separate seasons of 90 point seasons and 2 separate 100 point seasons would indicate a consistent level of high end play by each of Rantanen, Point and Pastrnak beyond “arbitrary milestones.”

Nobody disputed that they were high-end players, but hitting X goals/points in a season is the very definition of "arbitrary milestones", and cups are team successes.
It also fails to capture everything in between.

 

[Stephen]

Nobody disputed that they were high-end players, but hitting X goals/points in a season is the very definition of "arbitrary milestones", and cups are team successes.
It also fails to capture everything in between.

Oh yeah. All the other stuff Marner manages to do overshadows winning Stanley Cups, Presidents Trophies, raw goal and point totals.

Penalty killing isn’t worth that much, I’ll tell you that for free.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Oh yeah. All the other stuff Marner manages to do overshadows winning Stanley Cups, Presidents Trophies, raw goal and point totals.
Penalty killing isn’t worth that much, I’ll tell you that for free.

We all want cups, but when discussing contracts for individuals, the quality of an individual is what matters, not team successes. Production matters, but counting up single-season raw goal and point milestones hit and ignoring everything in between is a really lazy way to evaluate the production abilities of an individual. Being one of the best top tier players defensively and one of the best PKers in the league may not carry as much value as production for forwards, but it does still matter, no matter how much you attempt to dismiss it.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I wonder if it's possible to talk about Marner without going through the same rinse and repeat of people dismissing the impacts he brings and dragging him through the mud because he justifiably gets paid more than objectively worse and less valuable players?

He does "get paid more than objectively worse and less valuable players". I don't think anyone disputes that, or begrudges it.

The problem, as has been shown many times, is that he also get paid more than objectively better and more valuable players.

 

[Stephen]

We all want cups, but when discussing contracts for individuals, the quality of an individual is what matters, not team successes. Production matters, but counting up single-season raw goal and point milestones hit and ignoring everything in between is a really lazy way to evaluate the production abilities of an individual. Being one of the best top tier players defensively and one of the best PKers in the league may not carry as much value as production for forwards, but it does still matter, no matter how much you attempt to dismiss it.

At the end of the day, you have to figure elite front line players who have done more in this league in a variety of categories cannot be considered inferior players.

 

[Stephen]

He does "get paid more than objectively worse and less valuable players". I don't think anyone disputes that, or begrudges it.

The problem, as has been shown many times, is that he also get paid more than objectively better and more valuable players.

Yeah at the end of the day Marner’s been an elite and productive player in Toronto with big achievements and big shortcomings. You can debate how much he’s fairly paid, overpaid, if he’s your cup of tea etc. Just don’t see the value in dragging down an entire class of players cause we need to frame that contract a certain favourable way. The man responsible isn’t even a Leaf anymore.

 

[Dekes For Days]

At the end of the day, you have to figure elite front line players who have done more in this league in a variety of categories cannot be considered inferior players.

At the end of the day, you have to figure that elite front line players who have done less overall in this league can be considered inferior players, even if their team found success, or they happened to hit some big arbitrary milestone before.

He does "get paid more than objectively worse and less valuable players". I don't think anyone disputes that, or begrudges it.
The problem, as has been shown many times, is that he also get paid more than objectively better and more valuable players.

Nobody has shown that, because he doesn't.

 

[Stephen]

At the end of the day, you have to figure that elite front line players who have done less overall in this league can be considered inferior players, even if their team found success, or they happened to hit some big milestone before.

So in summary, statistics and accomplishments that occurred in reality do not apply. Can’t wait for the McDavid vs Marner comparisons.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So in summary, statistics and accomplishments that occurred in reality do not apply.

In summary, statistics and individual accomplishments and quality apply. But that's different from the team accomplishments and arbitrary single-season milestones hit that you're attempting to use.

 

[Stephen]

In summary, statistics and individual accomplishments and quality apply. But that's different from team accomplishments and arbitrary single-season milestones hit.

So in your estimation, what does Mikko Rantanen need to do to catch up to Mitch Marner as a superstar player, having only won a Stanley Cup, score 50 goals and 100+ points? Score fewer points, be on worse team and struggle in the playoffs? Take a PK shift here and there?

 

[notDatsyuk]

So in your estimation, what does Mikko Rantanen need to do to catch up to Mitch Marner as a superstar player, having only won a Stanley Cup, score 50 goals and 100+ points? Score fewer points, be on worse team and struggle in the playoffs? Take a PK shift here and there?

For Dekes, all he has to do is become a Leaf, preferably signed by Dubas.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So in your estimation, what does Mikko Rantanen need to do to catch up to Mitch Marner as a superstar player

Improve at 5v5, improve defensively, and bring something extra that makes up for not being one of the best PKers in the league.

 

[Gallagbi]

For Dekes, all he has to do is become a Leaf, preferably signed by Dubas.

Careful in that glass house of yours

 

[Stephen]

Improve at 5v5, improve defensively, and bring something extra that makes up for not being one of the best PKers in the league.

Nice try. No.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Nice try. No.

Those are pretty undeniably the areas where he falls behind.

 

[Stephen]

Those are pretty undeniably the areas where he falls behind.

If we followed your line of thinking that Marner’s defensive brilliance weighs more heavily than winning cups and scoring 50, 60 goals and surpassing 100 points we’d arrive at some pretty funny conclusions.

Like a Selke winner, aka even better defense than Marner should be better than Marner. Is Bergeron better than Marner? Is Bergeron better than a 60 goal scorer? Is he better than Matthews?

 

[Dekes For Days]

If we followed your line of thinking that Marner’s defensive brilliance weighs more heavily than winning cups and scoring 50, 60 goals and surpassing 100 points we’d arrive at some pretty funny conclusions. Like a Selke winner, aka even better defense than Marner should be better than Marner. Is Bergeron better than Marner? Is Bergeron better than a 60 goal scorer? Is he better than Matthews?

I mentioned more than just defense, and nobody said defensive ability weighs more heavily than production ability. In fact, I said the exact opposite.
It's just not dismissed like you're attempting to do, and production ability isn't evaluated in the arbitrary, misleading way you're using.
Bergeron was more valuable and impactful than his production ability.
And I'm not sure why you keep talking about team accomplishments when we're discussing individuals.

 

[Stephen]

Nobody said defensive ability weighs more heavily than production ability. In fact, I said the exact opposite.
It's just not dismissed like you're attempting to do, and production ability isn't evaluated in the arbitrary, misleading way you're using.
Bergeron was more valuable and impactful than his production ability.
And I'm not sure why you keep talking about team accomplishments when we're discussing individual contracts.

More likely you just ignored the empirical results of the last 3 seasons to hold onto the Marner Superiority Narrative. No one cares about defense and penalty killing that much and means it. Aside from the fact that everyone in this group is scoring 90+ points here are some other notable accomplishments:

Last 3 years:

-2023 Rantanen scores 50 goals and 105 points.
-2023 Pastrnak scores 61 goals+ and 113 points, surpassing Matthews totals
-2023 Point scores 51 goals.
-2022 Stanley Cup. (Rantanen)
-2021 Stanley Cup. (Point)
-2020 Stanley Cup. (Point)

-2023 Marner, 3rd in Selke.

He should be honoured to be in the club with these peers.

 

[Gary Nylund]

So in your estimation, what does Mikko Rantanen need to do to catch up to Mitch Marner as a superstar player, having only won a Stanley Cup, score 50 goals and 100+ points? Score fewer points, be on worse team and struggle in the playoffs? Take a PK shift here and there?

Well done!

 

[Dekes For Days]

More likely you just ignored the empirical results of the last 3 seasons to hold onto the Marner Superiority Narrative. No one cares about defense and penalty killing that much and means it. Aside from the fact that everyone in this group is scoring 90+ points here are some other notable accomplishments:

Last 3 years:

-2023 Rantanen scores 50 goals and 105 points.
-2023 Pastrnak scores 61 goals+ and 113 points, surpassing Matthews totals
-2023 Point scores 51 goals.
-2022 Stanley Cup. (Rantanen)
-2021 Stanley Cup. (Point)
-2020 Stanley Cup. (Point)

-2023 Marner, 3rd in Selke.

He should be honoured to be in the club with these peers.

The empirical results of the past 3 seasons show Marner to be better. He's already ahead before even getting to things like elite defensive and penalty killing impacts - which of course teams care about. The issue is that you're focusing exclusively on team accomplishments and hitting arbitrary single-season milestones to argue a Marner inferiority narrative, while ignoring 99% of the relevant information and context.

 

[notdoneyet]

Not many 100 point AND selke nominated forwards in the game today
If I recall correctly Bergeron the selke master only had a couple of ppl seasons
We should enjoy a player of the calibre