Mitch Marner discussion thread continued ..

[lottster14]

my take on Marner:

- Top 5-10 in the NHL in terms of pure talent; these playoffs don't change that
- doesn't play a physical game at all and this does not translate well into the playoffs
- the lack of physical game is probably a non-issue if he was able to bury pucks at clutch time in the same way as in the regular season
- in theory, as he ages and matures, he could become a potent playoff performer but it's far from guaranteed seeing as how it's already year 5.
- a big game tomorrow would shut up a ton of critics and anything short of that is probably (close to) the end of his 'untouchable' status in Toronto
- this would be far less of an issue if he were making Sebastian Aho money

All so true. He is like a Patrick Kane who can't quite drive a line and isn't strong on the puck

 

[Farsailor]

Hes been good on PK, but hes not getting paid for being good on the PK. Zero goals in last 17 playoff games is completely unacceptable and I want him traded if we lost tomorrow. Marner + for Eichel.

Eichel had 2 goals in 21 games this season, difficult season i know. But what else should we go by? I have some concerns with his attitude as well. Im not a big fan of him on the leafs.

 

[OppositeLocK]

likeable guy

Who cares. Kessel and Malkin hated each other but worked together to win multiple cups.

When you prioritize winning, nothing else matters. I frankly don't care how he is "in the community".

These people are paid outrageous amounts of money to do one thing. Perform on the ice at a high standard.

 

[Dreakmur]

Joe Thornton

He’s famous as a playoff choker.

Gilmour is the best Leafs example

Gilmour didn’t have a great shot, but he was a threat to score simply because he went to the net like a madman. You don’t need a great shot, but you do need more than one threat.

 

[Gallagbi]

Gilmour didn’t have a great shot, but he was a threat to score simply because he went to the net like a madman. You don’t need a great shot, but you do need more than one threat.

Isn't that the point? That he's an example of a player without a great shot who thrived in playoffs despite that?

 

[Dreakmur]

Isn't that the point? That he's an example of a player without a great shot who thrived in playoffs despite that?

I guess, but my point wasn’t about having a shot.

When you only do one thing, it’s easy to plan against you.

 

[Superstar]

I think Eichel's scared. His neck is NOT getting better and, when you're young, you don't worry about the long term consequences.

Again, I would NEVER let anyone operate on my neck but I'm old and I've been around. Eichel's 24 and has the "confidence of youth" - and that's not a good thing.

Anyway, again, I am off. Be well.

I agree with you that he shouldn't operate on his neck. He needs a good message therapist and chiropractor for calibrations to his neck. He's young, he will heal, but he needs to have faith and patience.

Tell you what, I recently recovered from a pinch nerve in my neck that resulted from a neck sprain...when it happened, my right arm went numb immediately, and for the first month, I could not even hold a tooth brush properly to brush my teeth...couldn't even hold a spatula properly to cook...my hand and fingers lost their dexterity...it was frustrating and scary...couldn't grip anything really hard with my right hand...I probably only had 60% strength with my right arm...it was in the middle of the pandemic and lockdowns just began, so I couldn't get any professional help...I slept with upper right backpains every night, which kept me up alot at night...and yes, I could not lift my right arm straight up over my head...while I was awake, I constantly felt pain and it was like there was a giant fish hook pulling on my neck constantly...this lasted for over 7 months when it slowly got better, the numbness went away and the strength came back...I think I'm pretty much all healed up now, but I've lost a lot of weight over those many months.

As difficult as it was, I had to have faith, perseverance and patience...and I worked at my neck, massaging it with my left hand daily...laid flat on my bed every night to do meditation and relaxation, consciously tucking my chin in and pulling my neck upward to stretch out my spine.

I could empathize with Eichel why he's scared, because it is scary, but he's alot younger than I am, and he could get the professional help he needs without doing surgery...he will recover.

 

[Stephen]

All the guy has done this series is slowly and lazily carry the puck into the zone and get his passes intercepted or straight up turns the puck over.

Not once has he gone into a dirty area to try to retrieve the puck. He’s thrown a couple of hits but with no intent behind them.

To me he’s clearly content with trying to make his same “skill” plays, and if they don’t work it’s no problem for him.

He’s not a leader on this team. He doesn’t drive success. He’s the ultimate passenger. Imagine being his teammate and watching him phone it in all series. How inspirational can it be to watch this guy float around out there and then be expected to go out and battle your next shift? You see it with successful teams - their stars are leading the charge in every area of the ice. We simply don’t have that drive on our team. You can’t have Spezza playing on the 4th line giving it all he has and expect to win.

Everyone in the league probably looks at him and sees this skilled brat pulling junior moves against grown men and they must love it come playoff time when all you have to do is skate in his direction and he’s gifting you a puck over glass.

 

[Gallagbi]

I guess, but my point wasn’t about having a shot.

When you only do one thing, it’s easy to plan against you.

Gotcha, that looks a little different than what you responded to fwiw, but I didn't continue on the thread back further than that one so I'm missing pieces

 

[Gallagbi]

Everyone in the league probably looks at him and sees this skilled brat pulling junior moves against grown men and they must love it come playoff time when all you have to do is skate in his direction and he’s gifting you a puck over glass.

It's what we said last playoff. Hes the guy being hunted instead of hunting.

 

[Stephen]

It's what we said last playoff. Hes the guy being hunted instead of hunting.

Yeah. If he’s prey by nature you gotta move on.

 

[socko]

Everyone in the league probably looks at him and sees this skilled brat pulling junior moves against grown men.

I actually see that from my couch in my living room.

 

[Gallagbi]

Yeah. If he’s prey by nature you gotta move on.

I think we've seen it for some time. From Marchand trolling him on Twitter and embarassing him that playoffs, to bring shutdown and irrelevant vs. CLB to now "working on his shot all summer" and putting up donuts left, right and center.

He's the happy to lucky pushover.

 

[TOGuy14]

After sleeping on it, Marner still retires a Leaf in my books.

Here's why.

Defensively he's been one of the best forwards in the entire playoffs. Nobodies going to deny this so let's move on.

The issue is he's 24 and still 2-3 years away from "doing it all". This guy doesn't suck. He's gassed. Nothing in the tank to produce offence. Playoffs is a rough life especially when you're already worn down from the regular season .

If we want his A+ offence we will need to reduce his defensive responsibilities in the playoffs. Been saying this every year. Take Marner off the PK. Let him go all in offence. Watch the difference it makes. We'll make due on the PK. It's not worth the offensive decline.

Does anyone know if guys like barzal and point have to PK and stuff like Marner?

Matthews has 22 hits in 6 games. The room is there for Marner. Tanks running empty. These coaches are whack and never adjust.

Release Marner as an offensive juggernaut and this team will change over night.

Weak excuse.

1. Marner plays 2:30 of PK time a game, nothing crazy

2. Other top players like Aho, Barkov, Bergeron, Marchand etc all do it as well

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Auston Matthews is playing well below expectations but he never potentially gave the game away on a PK by lobbing the puck into the upper bowl of an arena because he was brain dead or scared. That level of Marnerism isn’t something that can be overlooked so easily.

You might come back and say, this kind of thing happens. But it happens a lot with Marner. Look at the OT giveaway to Tkachuk. No biggie, right? Game 55 in a meaningless game? Well these mistakes are piling up now.

I guess it depends on what you consider playing well below expectations.

In terms of generating, there is still no one better on our team than him right now. He has 32 shots on net, he is getting into the dirty areas more than anyone else really, and he is doing so with Marner struggling to make basic plays (which also means added attention on Matthews as well).

What is frustrating is that Matthews really is not playing like ass or playing stupid/lazy but he is getting a lot less than he deserves (which is probably double what he currently has), which means he is somewhat playing like ass because putting points on the board is a big part of why he gets paid and he should have double what he currently has.

Marner's 4 assists is really more than he deserves right now based on his play. It is a completely different scenario than a guy like Matthews. Marner is lucky he has more than 1 or 2 assists based on how he has played. Ok he is a good PKer, but so is pointless Mikheyev making 1/10th of the money... And it is not like Marner is generating anywhere close to 10x more than Mikheyev is right now. In fact, Marner's individual contribution almost mirrors Mikheyev's right now, but Marner is boosted by playing with Matthews + Hyman.

Effectively, Matthews doesn't need to play "better", he just needs to put pucks in the net. That is pretty much all the coach can tell him to do better right now, and that is not really a helpful correction. Marner genuinely needs to play "better" because he is not even making the plays that will lead to goals like Matthews is currently doing. There is a lot a coach can tell him to do better besides something as frivolous as "put the puck in the net".

 

[Stephen]

I guess it depends on what you consider playing well below expectations.

In terms of generating, there is still no one better on our team than him right now. He has 32 shots on net, he is getting into the dirty areas more than anyone else really, and he is doing so with Marner struggling to make basic plays (which also means added attention on Matthews as well).

What is frustrating is that Matthews really is not playing like ass or playing stupid/lazy but he is getting a lot less than he deserves (which is probably double what he currently has), which means he is somewhat playing like ass because putting points on the board is a big part of why he gets paid and he should have double what he currently has.

Marner's 4 assists is really more than he deserves right now based on his play. It is a completely different scenario than a guy like Matthews. Marner is lucky he has more than 1 or 2 assists based on how he has played. Ok he is a good PKer, but so is pointless Mikheyev making 1/10th of the money... And it is not like Marner is generating anywhere close to 10x more than Mikheyev is right now. In fact, Marner's individual contribution almost mirrors Mikheyev's right now, but Marner is boosted by playing with Matthews + Hyman.

Effectively, Matthews doesn't need to play "better", he just needs to put pucks in the net. That is pretty much all the coach can tell him to do better right now, and that is not really a helpful correction. Marner genuinely needs to play "better" because he is not even making the plays that will lead to goals like Matthews is currently doing. There is a lot a coach can tell him to do better besides something as frivolous as "put the puck in the net".

Playoffs isn’t really a game of percentages though. I think that aspect of the game has always confounded and confused the analytics crowd because they can’t quantify a lot of these anomalies, so a guy who keeps doing what they’re doing with diminishing shooting percentage isn’t necessarily going to be rewarded if they keep at it. Playoffs is often about singular moments of great effort and skill breaking through the deadlock. That’s why guys like Patrick Kane are so special. Why Mats Sundin always seemed to be clutch. And that’s the beauty of the game and what our Big 2 are failing to show.

 

[Gallagbi]

Playoffs isn’t really a game of percentages though. I think that aspect of the game has always confounded and confused the analytics crowd because they can’t quantify a lot of these anomalies, so a guy who keeps doing what they’re doing with diminishing shooting percentage isn’t necessarily going to be rewarded if they keep at it. Playoffs is often about singular moments of great effort and skill breaking through the deadlock. That’s why guys like Patrick Kane are so special. Why Mats Sundin always seemed to be clutch. And that’s the beauty of the game and what our Big 2 are failing to show.

Theoretically this would even out over a certain length of time, but it's a gamble to hope on it.

 

[WillTheThrill]

Eichel had 2 goals in 21 games this season, difficult season i know. But what else should we go by? I have some concerns with his attitude as well. Im not a big fan of him on the leafs.

I dont hold anything against eichel playing in that shit hole of a franchise. He plays a more important position than Mitch and at the very least hes on par with him skill-wise.

 

[Stephen]

Theoretically this would even out over a certain length of time, but it's a gamble to hope on it.

Well by nature a playoff round is a small sample size so it will come down to some lucky bounces, momentum swings and individual feats of heroism. Shooting percentage and every just goes out the window.

 

[Gallagbi]

Well by nature a playoff round is a small sample size so it will come down to some lucky bounces, momentum swings and individual feats of heroism. Shooting percentage and every just goes out the window.

If you look annually, but year-over-year you should see more normalcy, which is where things get concerning for us.

Shit happens. Shit ALWAYS happening isn't normal.

 

[ORRFForever]

I agree with you that he shouldn't operate on his neck. He needs a good message therapist and chiropractor for calibrations to his neck. He's young, he will heal, but he needs to have faith and patience.

Tell you what, I recently recovered from a pinch nerve in my neck that resulted from a neck sprain...when it happened, my right arm went numb immediately, and for the first month, I could not even hold a tooth brush properly to brush my teeth...couldn't even hold a spatula properly to cook...my hand and fingers lost their dexterity...it was frustrating and scary...couldn't grip anything really hard with my right hand...I probably only had 60% strength with my right arm...it was in the middle of the pandemic and lockdowns just began, so I couldn't get any professional help...I slept with upper right backpains every night, which kept me up alot at night...and yes, I could not lift my right arm straight up over my head...while I was awake, I constantly felt pain and it was like there was a giant fish hook pulling on my neck constantly...this lasted for over 7 months when it slowly got better, the numbness went away and the strength came back...I think I'm pretty much all healed up now, but I've lost a lot of weight over those many months.

As difficult as it was, I had to have faith, perseverance and patience...and I worked at my neck, massaging it with my left hand daily...laid flat on my bed every night to do meditation and relaxation, consciously tucking my chin in and pulling my neck upward to stretch out my spine.

I could empathize with Eichel why he's scared, because it is scary, but he's alot younger than I am, and he could get the professional help he needs without doing surgery...he will recover.

I agree with you, 100%. So does Sabres management.

Again, if it was me, I'd lay on the couch until the summer of 2022. I'd watch reruns of Dr. Phil while I had a massage therapist work on my neck daily. Surgery would be my LAST(!!!!) option.

You can replace your knee, your hip, your heart, but you NEVER mess with the spine.

P.S. Sorry you had to go thru that. Sounds awful.

 

[Cor]

I would target LA as a trade partner.

Alex Turcotte, Carl Grundstrom, Dustin Brown and their 2021 1st Round Pick for Mitch Marner and Travis Dermott Turcotte has similar skill set to Marner. We take on Brown's final year to help the cap. Grundstrom and Dermott essentially just a swap.

After bringing back Spezza at 750K, Galch at 1M, Bogosian for 1.5M and a goalie for 2.5M (Halak?) I project us to have 9M in room with 22 man roster, to make improvements.

So whether that's an additional trade(s), or going after a free agent(s).

 

[supermann_98]

Fans might not like this but a Marner for Brady Tkachuk (main piece) would do wonders for the Leafs. Yes the Leafs lose in pure talent but their compete level goes up 100%. BT 's attitude is the closest things to a Doug Gilmour/Gary Roberts mindset that this team needs.

While I doubt Brady is available I’ve heard Matthew Tkachuk is, but I would bet my house that either would’ve have a more positive effect in this this series than Marner has

 

[ORRFForever]

Everyone in the league probably looks at him and sees this skilled brat pulling junior moves against grown men...

He did it in Junior but it worked there. IIRC, he did it at the World Juniors and he still does it. If I was the organization, I would be telling him :

1) Short sure passes;
2) SHOOT the stupid puck;
3) Stop try to do too much or we will bench you.

 

[Mats13]

my take on Marner:

- Top 5-10 in the NHL in terms of pure talent; these playoffs don't change that
- doesn't play a physical game at all and this does not translate well into the playoffs
- the lack of physical game is probably a non-issue if he was able to bury pucks at clutch time in the same way as in the regular season
- in theory, as he ages and matures, he could become a potent playoff performer but it's far from guaranteed seeing as how it's already year 5.
- a big game tomorrow would shut up a ton of critics and anything short of that is probably (close to) the end of his 'untouchable' status in Toronto
- this would be far less of an issue if he were making Sebastian Aho money

He can’t shoot the puck. He most definitely is not top 5-10 in talent.