Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Continued

[DarkKnight]

..

Non PK/Empty net goals/points this year:

Marner: 12 goals, 51 points in around 750 minutes.
MacKinnon: 11 goals, 54 points in around 880 minutes.
Rantanen: 17 goals, 45 points in around 850 minutes.

Marner is also top 10 in the NHL for PK icetime for forwards on a top 10 NHL PK.

WIth Matthews back up to speed (and Drai + McDavid lurking in the background), Marner is absolutely in the Hart+Art Ross race ATM.

Also top forward in league for takeaways.

 

[Hellcat]

Two leaf fan blogs and a espn article discussing votes they received in December? Yea very credible. The ESPN one polled a random selection of writers and Marner received just one measely writers vote. Which is meaningless... "Marner received a first-place vote for holding down the fort while Auston Matthews was out with an injury.

Check out the main board Hart discussion, no knowledgeable ubiased fans mentions Marner in the Hart conversarion up to page 5, I havent looked since.

I could be mistaken but didn't you say no one is discussing it? No one is a pretty specific statement, no? Some people are discussing it.

You think that a Hockey forum that has nothing but biased hockey fans is going to suggest a Maple Leaf? Heck the year Matty won I remember this very forum in the main board giving very little chance for him to win... HF is not the place you go to read unbiased opinions.

He is third in the scoring race, one point behind 2nd place and he did that mostly without AM in the lineup. Is he in the discussion? I think anyone in the top 3 in scoring should be in the discussion. Will he win probably not, unless he goes on a stupid scoring streak, then all bets are off. IMO Krill, Connor or Makar would be my top 3.

 

[HellasLEAF]

Marner looks more confident, more physically mature, more commanding and heck, just better in every single way. A lot to like about his game right now. I will say though if Marner who has been vilified in Leafs Nation has half a brain cell he will take a discount (if he wants to stay). He did not deliver on his last contract considering playoff failures even though was given the benefit of the doubt on future with that deal. It did not materialize. Heck fans wanted him gone to start the year many still do. Hope he remembers this.

 

[weems]

Just watched the replays of the goals last night and even though Knies scored the winner, Mitch also deserves some credit for the goal.

Right off the draw Marner heads directly to the crease and plants himself right in front of Fedotov creating almost a double screen with both he and Knies there. If it was just Knies with one of the opposing defenders, it would have been much easier for Fedotov to see around the first screen and track the puck.

Just a small detail but one that shows up bigtime in postseason play where getting traffic around the crease is a big deal.

 

[666]

Marner looks more confident, more physically mature, more commanding and heck, just better in every single way.

No, he pretty well always played this way. He's possibly more noticeable because Matthews has been out so he's playing against the top matchups without Matthews but this is typical Marner given the circumstances.

 

[kevsh]

Marner looks more confident, more physically mature, more commanding and heck, just better in every single way.

Except that nasty habit of trying to be pretty at the wrong time.

Last night his very ill-conceived blind, backhand pass just inside the Flyers' blueline didn't cost them but you could tell from his prolonged expression afterwards he knew he made a bad play. The problem is, he's been doing plays like that for years and still hasn't learned.

With the Leafs you know that even if they win a playoff series it's going to be close and I absolutely believe that Mitch would still make that play late in a tied game, late in a series and it will cost the team.

He has to get that out of his system. Willie too.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Even if those players were 1 and 8 in the playoffs? Hell, the Sharks with Marleau and Thornton were more successful in the playoffs.

The only successful playoff run is a cup, so no, they weren't. Also, players don't have records. Teams have records. And contracts for individual players are not based on their team's playoff series record. If you're upset with the team's playoff series record, that sounds like a reason to get better, not a reason to get worse by losing one of the best players in the league.

 

[DarkKnight]

No, he pretty well always played this way. He's possibly more noticeable because Matthews has been out so he's playing against the top matchups without Matthews but this is typical Marner given the circumstances.

I'd argue he's is more physically engaged this year and a bit more sturdy on his feet as well. Does seem a little more effective on the wall.

 

[666]

I'd argue he's is more physically engaged this year and a bit more sturdy on his feet as well. Does seem a little more effective on the wall.

Maybe a little. The entire team plays different with a coaching change. But I still think that has a lot to do without Matthews not being himself so Marner has to pick up the slack, especially defensively. He's always played great with Matthews out.

edit: I don't trust hits stats but he's on pace for 46 when he had 59 in 69 last season. It's a tough thing to quantify.

 

[Hellcat]

Marner looks more confident, more physically mature, more commanding and heck, just better in every single way. A lot to like about his game right now. I will say though if Marner who has been vilified in Leafs Nation has half a brain cell he will take a discount (if he wants to stay). He did not deliver on his last contract considering playoff failures even though was given the benefit of the doubt on future with that deal. It did not materialize. Heck fans wanted him gone to start the year many still do. Hope he remembers this.

IMO. This is the best version of Mitch, that we have seen.

To be fair players are paid for regular season only, so in that sense he has delivered on his contract. Sub standard goaltending, poor coaching, suspect roster moves all come into play with our lack of success in the playoffs. People say Mitch has failed in the playoffs but over the last three years he has scored at a PPG pace. PPG is pretty good IMO. In the end the lack of playoff success is a team issue not an individual issue. I think it's fair to say Keefe was outcoached in every round except for one. I think it's fair to say our goaltending imploded last year and the year before. If I go down the blame game list, there are probably a half dozen things I would put before Mitch, JT and AM.

 

[Smif]

Just watched the replays of the goals last night and even though Knies scored the winner, Mitch also deserves some credit for the goal.

Right off the draw Marner heads directly to the crease and plants himself right in front of Fedotov creating almost a double screen with both he and Knies there. If it was just Knies with one of the opposing defenders, it would have been much easier for Fedotov to see around the first screen and track the puck.

Just a small detail but one that shows up bigtime in postseason play where getting traffic around the crease is a big deal.

View attachment 958214

Marner shouldn't get any credit for this because Matthews told him what to do right before the faveoff

 

[Gary Nylund]

Marner looks more confident, more physically mature, more commanding and heck, just better in every single way. A lot to like about his game right now. I will say though if Marner who has been vilified in Leafs Nation has half a brain cell he will take a discount (if he wants to stay). He did not deliver on his last contract considering playoff failures even though was given the benefit of the doubt on future with that deal. It did not materialize. Heck fans wanted him gone to start the year many still do. Hope he remembers this.

He looks absolutely fantastic, can he keep it up through a deep playoff run is the question. I had these same thoughts 2 years ago - he's looking better than ever and I remember saying I'm confident that his playoff struggles are behind him. He was great for the first 4 games and then disappeared, as usual. So many people have said that his game is simply not suited for playoff hockey, I hope they're wrong but after all these years I can't say that I'm very optimistic in regard. I made the mistake two years ago of believing his playoff issues are behind him and I'm not falling for it again. I'm hoping he can win me over again but this time around, I need to see it before believing.

IMO. This is the best version of Mitch, that we have seen.

To be fair players are paid for regular season only, so in that sense he has delivered on his contract. Sub standard goaltending, poor coaching, suspect roster moves all come into play with our lack of success in the playoffs. People say Mitch has failed in the playoffs but over the last three years he has scored at a PPG pace. PPG is pretty good IMO. In the end the lack of playoff success is a team issue not an individual issue. I think it's fair to say Keefe was outcoached in every round except for one. I think it's fair to say our goaltending imploded last year and the year before. If I go down the blame game list, there are probably a half dozen things I would put before Mitch, JT and AM.

On the surface that sounds not too bad, however ... the 18 games over the last two playoffs go something like this:

The first 4 games against TB - 9 points.
The next 14 games - 8 points.

I can't be bothered to look up the details now but I believe that's accurate and if you look at 2022, I believe it's similar. He's great for the first few games, the he drops off a cliff and considering how poorly he's performed in the last 2 series we played, it's fair to say that while he's trending well in the regular season, in the playoffs he's trending down.

There's plenty of blame to go around and our playoff failures aren't all on any one person. If I were to make a list though, JT and Marner would occupy the top two slots.

 

[666]

The first 4 games against TB - 9 points.
The next 14 games - 8 points.

I can't be bothered to look up the details now but I believe that's accurate and if you look at 2022, I believe it's similar. He's great for the first few games, the he drops off a cliff and considering how poorly he's performed in the last 2 series we played, it's fair to say that while he's trending well in the regular season, in the playoffs he's trending down.

There's plenty of blame to go around and our playoff failures aren't all on any one person. If I were to make a list though, JT and Marner would occupy the top two slots.

Why the obsession with points when it's only 2% of the game? You might want to think about the other 98% of the game as you're missing a lot.

Ask yourself two simple questions. If Marner is so bad, why haven't his multiple professional coaches reduced his ice time, especially in critical moments after all of these supposed failures? And here's the kicker. What parts of the game are YOU missing that they aren't? Think about it.

 

[thewave]

Looking great this year Mitch my boy, my man. Bring it in the POs and get us to the ECF you little beast.

 

[ToneDog]

From thread on the main boards, no Marner on Athletic's list for Hart or Selke. Has Paul seen this list?

Complaints should be sent to:

 

[Gabriel426]

Why the obsession with points when it's only 2% of the game? You might want to think about the other 98% of the game as you're missing a lot.

Ask yourself two simple questions. If Marner is so bad, why haven't his multiple professional coaches reduced his ice time, especially in critical moments after all of these supposed failures? And here's the kicker. What parts of the game are YOU missing that they aren't? Think about it.

MM along with AM, JT and to some extent Reilly were all chokers in the playoffs. Lets not pretend they were great and it was luck, coaching, supporting players, goalies, fans and the TO traffic that played a part in playoffs failures.

Reilly is our No.1 Dman but is he a No.1 Dman if he plays on Panthers or Lightning or Vegas or Avs? The past 5 Cup Winners. How about the past 5 runner ups, in Lightning, Panthers, Habs, Stars, and Oilers? Just bc someone is playing a lot on a team really doesn’t mean much when comparing to league wide top talents. Tallest of the Hobbits is still short compared to normal human.

We can look at each players points or goals or whatever stats….truth is that collectively they choked and really didn’t improve their playoffs performance.

Mind you MM, JT and AM were all making over 10mil/season and pretty much the top 7 salaries in the league. Expectations for them to deliver in playoffs is justified, esp since only a 1/3 of the teams had players over 10mil, and only four teams ever had players with TWO 10mil plus players, and ONE team ever had THREE 10mil plus players.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Why the obsession with points when it's only 2% of the game? You might want to think about the other 98% of the game as you're missing a lot.

Ask yourself two simple questions. If Marner is so bad, why haven't his multiple professional coaches reduced his ice time, especially in critical moments after all of these supposed failures? And here's the kicker. What parts of the game are YOU missing that they aren't? Think about it.

Points are awarded when goals are scored and at the end of the game, the number of goals scored decides who won the game. You can dismiss the importance as being "only 2% of the game" but when it comes to deciding who wins the game, goals are 100%, there is nothing else.

I never said Marner is "so bad", those are your words, not mine. He's a great player but over the course of his career, his production has dropped after 86 games from 100 point pace to 40 point pace. Why do you think that is?

It seems like you don't care, you shrug it off as if this "only 2%" isn't cause for concern. But those are the facts, and they seem like cause for concern for a huge number of Leaf fans.

MM along with AM, JT and to some extent Reilly were all chokers in the playoffs. Lets not pretend they were great and it was luck, coaching, supporting players, goalies, fans and the TO traffic that played a part in playoffs failures.

Reilly is our No.1 Dman but is he a No.1 Dman if he plays on Panthers or Lightning or Vegas or Avs? The past 5 Cup Winners. How about the past 5 runner ups, in Lightning, Panthers, Habs, Stars, and Oilers? Just bc someone is playing a lot on a team really doesn’t mean much when comparing to league wide top talents. Tallest of the Hobbits is still short compared to normal human.

We can look at each players points or goals or whatever stats….truth is that collectively they choked and really didn’t improve their playoffs performance.

Mind you MM, JT and AM were all making over 10mil/season and pretty much the top 7 salaries in the league. Expectations for them to deliver in playoffs is justified, esp since only a 1/3 of the teams had players over 10mil, and only four teams ever had players with TWO 10mil plus players, and ONE team ever had THREE 10mil plus players.

Rielly was good in 2023 but yeah, last playoffs he was pretty bad. MM, JT and AM are the main culprits for sure because of their massive cap hits, especially JT and MM.

 

[666]

Points are awarded when goals are scored and at the end of the game, the number of goals scored decides who won the game. You can dismiss the importance as being "only 2% of the game" but when it comes to deciding who wins the game, goals are 100%, there is nothing else.

I never said Marner is "so bad", those are your words, not mine. He's a great player but over the course of his career, his production has dropped after 86 games from 100 point pace to 40 point pace. Why do you think that is?

It seems like you don't care, you shrug it off as if this "only 2%" isn't cause for concern. But those are the facts, and they seem like cause for concern for a huge number of Leaf fans.

But what about the other 98%? For example how many goals against did he prevent? Don't they count for anything?

And again. Why haven't his multiple professional coaches reduced his ice time in the playoffs, especially in critical moments after all of these supposed failures?
What parts of the game are YOU missing that they aren't? .

 

[Gary Nylund]

From thread on the main boards, no Marner on Athletic's list for Hart or Selke. Has Paul seen this list?

View attachment 958292


View attachment 958293

Complaints should be sent to:

View attachment 958296

That's interesting. I've always thought that the idea of Marner winning the Selke is absurd, but he's been so good this season that I'd think he'd be in the top 10 for Hart conversation. Not that I care much about individual awards and I don't see him ever winning the Hart but still, I would think he'd be in the conversation.

Then again, this is the Athletic. The same people who rated Kadri and Kerfoot as having almost equal value around the time we traded Kadri so ...

But what about the other 98%? For example how many goals against did he prevent? Don't they count for anything?

And again. Why haven't his multiple professional coaches reduced his ice time in the playoffs, especially in critical moments after all of these supposed failures?
What parts of the game are YOU missing that they aren't? .

I'm happy to answer more questions but how about you answering first. Why do you think Marner goes from 100 point pace to 40 point pace after 86 games?

 

[666]

MM along with AM, JT and to some extent Reilly were all chokers in the playoffs. Lets not pretend they were great and it was luck, coaching, supporting players, goalies, fans and the TO traffic that played a part in playoffs failures.

Reilly is our No.1 Dman but is he a No.1 Dman if he plays on Panthers or Lightning or Vegas or Avs? The past 5 Cup Winners. How about the past 5 runner ups, in Lightning, Panthers, Habs, Stars, and Oilers? Just bc someone is playing a lot on a team really doesn’t mean much when comparing to league wide top talents. Tallest of the Hobbits is still short compared to normal human.

We can look at each players points or goals or whatever stats….truth is that collectively they choked and really didn’t improve their playoffs performance.

Mind you MM, JT and AM were all making over 10mil/season and pretty much the top 7 salaries in the league. Expectations for them to deliver in playoffs is justified, esp since only a 1/3 of the teams had players over 10mil, and only four teams ever had players with TWO 10mil plus players, and ONE team ever had THREE 10mil plus players.

You're missing Nylander's horrid defense but as long as you're disappointed in the core it's all good.

I'm happy to answer more questions but how about you answering first. Why do you think Marner goes from 100 point pace to 40 point pace after 86 games?

It's 2% of the game. We don't know what his responsibilities are. What about the other 98%?

And again. Why haven't his multiple professional coaches reduced his ice time in the playoffs, especially in critical moments after all of these supposed failures?
What parts of the game are YOU missing that they aren't? .

 

[IPS]

From thread on the main boards, no Marner on Athletic's list for Hart or Selke. Has Paul seen this list?

View attachment 958292


View attachment 958293

Complaints should be sent to:

View attachment 958296

I'm all for riling up the Marner PR crew but you really can't be having Reinhart ahead of Marner, that's just not accurate.

For Selke too? Brandon Hagel? Come on now.

All bullshit aside the season Marner is having should easily have him in the Hart conversation.

 

[Lightsol]

The first 4 games against TB - 9 points.
The next 14 games - 8 points.

And yet, doing this twice created the legend of William Nylander, Playoff Hero...

 

[Gary Nylund]

You're missing Nylander's horrid defense but as long as you're disappointed in the core it's all good.

It's 2% of the game. We don't know what his responsibilities are. What about the other 98%?

And again. Why haven't his multiple professional coaches reduced his ice time in the playoffs, especially in critical moments after all of these supposed failures?
What parts of the game are YOU missing that they aren't? .

That's not an answer. Why does Marner go from a ~100 point player for the first 86 games to a ~40 point player the rest of the way?

If you don't want to answer that's fine, but don't expect me to answer more of your questions if you can't even answer that one.

This "2% of the game" stuff is nonsense. With his cap hit, Marner is expected to produce offence, not just kill penalties and play defence. Same goes for all the highest paid forwards in the league, every single one of them.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'm all for riling up the Marner PR crew but you really can't be having Reinhart ahead of Marner, that's just not accurate.

For Selke too? Brandon Hagel? Come on now.

All bullshit aside the season Marner is having should easily have him in the Hart conversation.

I agree. LOL the Athletic, not much else to say on this one.

And yet, doing this twice created the legend of William Nylander, Playoff Hero...

Doing what twice?

In any case, the fact you're comparing Nylander and Marner is pretty telling considering Marner's cap hit has been so much bigger.

 

[666]

That's not an answer. Why does Marner go from a ~100 point player for the first 86 games to a ~40 point player the rest of the way?

Edit: The answer is coaching. Both sides.

Your turn. Why haven't his multiple professional coaches reduced his ice time in the playoffs, especially in critical moments after all of these supposed failures?
What parts of the game are YOU missing that they aren't? .