Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Continued

[DarkKnight]

Finally, a hater with a large sample size. Unfortunately you're completely ignoring Nylander's dismal defence. While using +/- is frowned upon when comparing two right wingers on the same team it's at least a reasonable context and in this case it should give you a hint as to how horrible Nylander is defensively. To even consider comparing Nylander to Marner during the regular season is absurd. Do you guys even watch the defensive zone?

People don't acknowledge D is as important as O, it isn't as sexy I guess. The PK is as important as the PP, yet it's a throw in around here. Coaches get it, but fans tend to just look at offence. Even look when we score a goal, the guy doing all the work to get there isn't mentioned in game threads, just the finish. Marner's defensive contribution is largely a whatever, you mention his Selke 3rd place, the goddam Selke, and it's treated like you're a fanboy exaggerating. Hilarious. Again, hockey people understand to win it's a 200 foot game, fans just look at goals. Marner is the main forward on a great PK this year, that's just as impactful as being the main PP player, which he might be too. Deal haters, I'm just enjoying both of them.

 

[danny90]

Does this look like a $13m player?

View attachment 948686

How about this?

View attachment 948693

wow I cant believe one player would do better than the other in a small sample size

 

[666]

Ofcourse pk time affects plus minus. You can never be assigned a minus while on pk but you can collect pluses. How many free pluses over 2.5 years did Mitch collect? Anyway man I value them both the same. If I’m defending I want Mitch, if I need a goal I want William

What I'm saying is that the even strength stats are the ones used for comparing players for this sort of thing and Nylander is on for significantly more goals against and less goals for in general than Marner is.

As for goals, it's Marners job to use his elite vision and be a playmaker. He's still the cause of more goals for than Nylander is it's just not his role to score them.

Do yourself a favour. The next time that Marner and Nylander don't play on the same line, in the defensive zone, stop watching the puck and only focus on Marner and Nylander and the play in general. You will be blown away by the difference. Offensively watch how many times Nylander gives the puck away with how few touches he gets. Marner will give it away a lot too but not compared to the enormous number of times he touches the puck. Marner is much much better if you watch closely.

 

[666]

People don't acknowledge D is as important as O, it isn't as sexy I guess. The PK is as important as the PP, yet it's a throw in around here. Coaches get it, but fans tend to just look at offence. Even look when we score a goal, the guy doing all the work to get there isn't mentioned in game threads, just the finish. Marner's defensive contribution is largely a whatever, you mention his Selke 3rd place, the goddam Selke, and it's treated like you're a fanboy exaggerating. Hilarious. Again, hockey people understand to win it's a 200 foot game, fans just look at goals. Marner is the main forward on a great PK this year, that's just as impactful as being the main PP player, which he might be too. Deal haters, I'm just enjoying both of them.

Agreed 100% The haters only seem to understand points although Marner is pretty good there too. Unfortunately this league just doesn't measure defence in an easily consumed form so they can't point to an obvious stat. I have no idea what they are doing when they are watching the games but it's pretty clear it's not defence.

 

[DarkKnight]

Agreed 100% The haters only seem to understand points although Marner is pretty good there too. Unfortunately this league just doesn't measure defence in an easily consumed form so they can't point to an obvious stat. I have no idea what they are doing when they are watching the games but it's pretty clear it's not defence.

In three years he will be the all time points leader on an original six team, so ya he's pretty good on offence too lol.

Appreciate what you said about watching the play away from the puck, I enjoy this as well, mostly because I see what coaches are looking at, not just the flash. Marner's IQ is off the hook.

 

[ToneDog]

wow I cant believe one player would do better than the other in a small sample size

Perhaps you can do research for a larger sample size and report back. Maybe you can also include playoffs.

 

[ToneDog]

Im not a hater, jeeze. I just don’t believe in overpaying. Mitch playing all the pk apparently but has only 7 shp compared to William’s 4. William with 17 gwg’s compared to Marner’s 8. We can all point to different angles. I’d say the difference In defence is countered by the difference in goals

My, my, how ironic you being called a hater when you have backed Marner on almost everything. Good times.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Ofcourse pk time affects plus minus. You can never be assigned a minus while on pk but you can collect pluses. How many free pluses over 2.5 years did Mitch collect? Anyway man I value them both the same. If I’m defending I want Mitch, if I need a goal I want William

Short handed goals are “free” pluses??

lol

 

[GoonieFace]

Then you don't understand Marners role or defense. Nylander is a defensive liability all of time. Marner is a defensive superstar all of the time. When Nylander plays with JT they let in more goals than they score. When Marner plays with JT they are as effective as the Matthews line.

You need to watch Nylander closer in the defensive zone. First of all he's alway late getting out of the offensive zone because he's always so tired or lazy getting back. Then, most of the time, he hangs out at the blue line looking for the flashy stretch pass breakaway. When he does rarely contribute he gives the puck away more often than not. You guys really need to pay more attention in the defensive zone.

Playing defence as a winger is no big deal. I’d rather pay a guy that can score goals like Willy. You can find defensively responsible wingers for cheap.

 

[666]

Playing defence as a winger is no big deal. I’d rather pay a guy that can score goals like Willy. You can find defensively responsible wingers for cheap.

You have clearly never played or coached or participated in the game at high level if you think wingers aren't expected to play defensively. It is very difficult to find an elite defensively responsible winger like Marner who also gets close to 100 points per season. In fact, that's usually called a superstar.

 

[GoonieFace]

You have clearly never played or coached or participated in the game at high level if you think wingers aren't expected to play defensively. It is very difficult to find an elite defensively responsible winger like Marner who also gets close to 100 points per season. In fact, that's usually called a superstar.

Well I did play at a high level, but whatever. What I meant to say is the difficulty of playing d as a winger is easy, not like playing d as a centremen. Mitch is great at what he does, but i prefer a winger that can score goals and create his own goals, who may lack the defensive aspect.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Well I did play at a high level, but whatever. What I meant to say is the difficulty of playing d as a winger is easy, not like playing d as a centremen. Mitch is great at what he does, but i prefer a winger that can score goals and create his own goals, who may lack the defensive aspect.

Yeah playing defence has value, but the defensive value a Marner type player brings is nowhere near what astrong defensive Dman or centre brings. Marner's problem is that so far, his offense dies in the playoffs. 100 point player during the season, 70 point player in the playoffs. The scary part is that the first 4 games of the playoffs he's still a 100 point player but after than, he's a 40 point player. On a team that always dies at the end of the 1st round, that stands out like a sore thumb and no, playing defence does not make up it and therefore, at least IMHO he isn't worth his cap hit in the playoffs.

Great regular season player though, he even helps kill penalties. I'll bet he's one of the worlds best shinny hockey payers too and even MacKinnon I think it was said that he sure looks good skating around in the summertime.

 

[DarkKnight]

Tied for seventh in the league in points.

 

[Maple Leaf]

When Marner doesn't score in the playoffs they will say he was elite defensively

 

[ACC1224]

Tied for seventh in the league in points.

Excellent game last night, some of the shifts near the end were incredible.
Hopefully some of the others will follow his lead as the games get more important.

 

[ToneDog]

Yeah playing defence has value, but the defensive value a Marner type player brings is nowhere near what astrong defensive Dman or centre brings. Marner's problem is that so far, his offense dies in the playoffs. 100 point player during the season, 70 point player in the playoffs. The scary part is that the first 4 games of the playoffs he's still a 100 point player but after than, he's a 40 point player. On a team that always dies at the end of the 1st round, that stands out like a sore thumb and no, playing defence does not make up it and therefore, at least IMHO he isn't worth his cap hit in the playoffs.

Great regular season player though, he even helps kill penalties. I'll bet he's one of the worlds best shinny hockey payers too and even MacKinnon I think it was said that he sure looks good skating around in the summertime.

One goal in last 11 games. Pacing for 25g and 100+ points. Playing well and getting his assists but is that production worth his rumored ask of $13-14m?

Johnny Hockey (RIP) has always been his comparable to me. Put up or paced for 100 points in the regular season, and then not much in the playoffs. Would you pay Johnny Hockey (RIP) $13m? Not a chance.

Interesting enough JH (RIP) has scored one more goal than MM in the playoffs in 15 fewer games. He also scored 40 goals and 115 points as a pending UFA and still could not get close to what Dubas gifted Marner.

Mitch has a career average of 27 goals with a high of 35 goals but his goal production since that high is 30, 26 and currently 10 goals.

 

[DarkKnight]

Excellent game last night, some of the shifts near the end were incredible.
Hopefully some of the others will follow his lead as the games get more important.

I'm sure that was missed by many, but the coach will love that tape. He made so many awesome plays at the end there, hockey people get it.

 

[thusk]

Playing defence as a winger is no big deal. I’d rather pay a guy that can score goals like Willy. You can find defensively responsible wingers for cheap.

Between a defensive winger who help to shutdown top offensive weapon game after game vs a scoring winger who only scoring against bad line come playoff time. So you can't play with average depht defensive player because they will need to play a lot vs top offensive line to let Nylander being able to produce.. Who do you really choosing?

ps outside of MTL series im 47 game Nylander having 1 5v5 goal against any top 6 line...Just as exemple, its the same number vs any top 6 line than David Kampf

 

[ACC1224]

I'm sure that was missed by many, but the coach will love that tape. He made so many awesome plays at the end there, hockey people get it.

I think his last shift was almost two minutes and he dove to finally get the puck out so they could get off the ice.
No blowing the zone for empty net goals for this guy.

 

[Gary Nylund]

When Marner doesn't score in the playoffs they will say he was elite defensively

I find it a bit odd that Marner leads the team in scoring, is supposedly a defensive force and yet is only +2 on the season. I just looked it up and was surprised to see that our top 5 forwards in that category are JT, Max Pac and all members of our 3rd line last night.

P.S. Plus minus isn't a good measuring stick, I just found this interesting.

 

[arso40]

Excellent game last night, some of the shifts near the end were incredible.
Hopefully some of the others will follow his lead as the games get more important.

And you wonder where the divide comes from loool

 

[ACC1224]

And you wonder where the divide comes from loool

I don’t wonder anything. Things are pretty obvious when you understand what you’re watching and keep an open mind.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Excellent game last night, some of the shifts near the end were incredible.
Hopefully some of the others will follow his lead as the games get more important.

Considering how Marner goes from a 100 point player to a 40 point player after the first 4 games of the playoffs, hopefully they don't.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Finally, a hater with a large sample size. Unfortunately you're completely ignoring Nylander's dismal defence. While using +/- is frowned upon when comparing two right wingers on the same team it's at least a reasonable context and in this case it should give you a hint as to how horrible Nylander is defensively. To even consider comparing Nylander to Marner during the regular season is absurd. Do you guys even watch the defensive zone?

Ad hominem attack aside, please tell us how many Selke votes their respective centres got.

 

[Confucius]

What I'm saying is that the even strength stats are the ones used for comparing players for this sort of thing and Nylander is on for significantly more goals against and less goals for in general than Marner is.[/yb]

Quite a few Leaf forwards have a better plus/minus than Marner this year, I guess they are more valuable this year