Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Continued

[GoonieFace]

Was there a cap in 1993?

Nope, 2005’it was introduced

 

[ToneDog]

Glad to see you back and causing a ruckus

This board needs more agitators than shills. The last thing Leafs management needs is fans bowing down and licking their feet. Its almost 60 years since we won a cup. That is more than 2 generations.

Nope, 2005’it was introduced

Then it sounds like something did change since 1993. No cap, give the choker the CN Tower for all I care. Afterall I heard we are the Yankees of the NHL without the winnings of course.

 

[francis246]

This board needs more agitators than shills. The last thing Leafs management needs is fans bowing down and licking their feet. Its almost 60 years since we won a cup. That is more than 2 generations.


Then it sounds like something did change since 1993. No cap, give the choker the CN Tower for all I care.

Having good discussions/healthy debates is always good. Antro would get on my nerves the conversations were interesting at the least.

 

[thewave]

This board needs more agitators than shills. The last thing Leafs management needs is fans bowing down and licking their feet. Its almost 60 years since we won a cup. That is more than 2 generations.


Then it sounds like something did change since 1993. No cap, give the choker the CN Tower for all I care.

Give them everything. It’s Canada, you can get the Order of Canada for teaching 67 old ladies how to knit.

 

[DarkKnight]

Was there a cap in 1993?

But he was a failure over and over in the playoffs, why bet again on a losing core right? How many times can you guys say that? I’m merely showing how a serial failure player is now beloved and a cup winner, things change, players learn and they get raises. We can afford Marner, and you’re just going to overpay for others in free agency anyways. Yzerman is a good example of not giving up too early, unique talents are just that.

 

[francis246]

Was there a cap in 1993?

Ironically I think this is probably Leafs managements frustration. The cap system has definitely f***ed them. Before you come at me for defending them, I’m just playing devils advocate for the sake of discussion.

Now that I’ve established that lol, I think the leafs would argue that they are punished in this system for simply having good players and wanting to retain them. If the cap was more flexible it wouldn’t be such an issue and a stagnant cap put a strangle hold on their plans.

From a fans perspective my thought is, At the end of the day it’s on the leafs to pivot and adjust if their plan wasn’t working.

 

[thewave]

But he was a failure over and over in the playoffs, why bet again on a losing core right? How’s ay times can you guys say that? I’m merely showing how a serial failure player is now beloved and a cup winner, things change, players learn and they get raises. We can afford Marner, and you’re just going to overpay for others in free agency anyways. Yzerman is a good example of not giving up too early, unique talents are just that.

Ya but with no cap and being Little Ceasar rich you can pay a professional athlete to dance around as a breadstick for 5m a year. There is no consequences to being super rich.

 

[ToneDog]

But he was a failure over and over in the playoffs, why bet again on a losing core right? How’s ay times can you guys say that? I’m merely showing how a serial failure player is now beloved and a cup winner, things change, players learn and they get raises. We can afford Marner, and you’re just going to overpay for others in free agency anyways. Yzerman is a good example of not giving up too early, unique talents are just that.

It is a very good example. The difference is, making Yzerman wealthy did not prohibit the team from bringing in a strong supporting cast or having to throw players overboard like teams have since this lousy cap was introduced.

 

[DarkKnight]

It is a very good example. The difference is, making Yzerman wealthy did not prohibit the team from bringing in a strong supporting cast or having to throw players overboard like teams have since this lousy cap was introduced.

And as I’ve said repeatedly, with a rising cap, we can afford other players now too. People are floating 105 mil for 26-27, with JT off the books, I fail to see how Marner isn’t doable, with additions. What am I missing here? And being a fan isn’t shilling, I just like the player is all. You’re backing a guy who isn’t even a Leafs fan, he’s just trolling, look at his post history, not one Leaf related comment, apart from Marner bashing. That isn’t agitating, that’s garbage.

 

[GoonieFace]

Ironically I think this is probably Leafs managements frustration. The cap system has definitely f***ed them. Before you come at me for defending them, I’m just playing devils advocate for the sake of discussion.

Now that I’ve established that lol, I think the leafs would argue that they are punished in this system for simply having good players and wanting to retain them. If the cap was more flexible it wouldn’t be such an issue and a stagnant cap put a strangle hold on their plans.

From a fans perspective my thought is, At the end of the day it’s on the leafs to pivot and adjust if their plan wasn’t working.

This i agree with. There should have always been something in the CBA about retaining your own players, some sort of cap reduction.

It is a very good example. The difference is, making Yzerman wealthy did not prohibit the team from bringing in a strong supporting cast or having to throw players overboard like teams have since this lousy cap was introduced.

Yzerman winning a cup was more likely a result of having Fedorov and Lidstrom on the team. We definitely do not have a Lidstrom. But who knows, anything is possible

 

[thewave]

This i agree with. There should have always been something in the CBA about retaining your own players, some sort of cap reduction.


Yzerman winning a cup was more likely a result of having Fedorov and Lidstrom on the team. We definitely do not have a Lidstrom. But who knows, anything is possible

The NHL cap system is anti competitive and not at all fair depending on the state or province you play in.

It's a great system for getting good players into growing markets like FL.

 

[HolyCrap]

The NHL cap system is anti competitive and not at all fair depending on the state or province you play in.

It's a great system for getting good players into growing markets like FL.

And that’s all the NHL cares about. Expansion and gaining value for the smaller franchises. I hope it bursts and backfires on them.

 

[thusk]

I've never said this so why respond to my post with this nonsense? You remind me of that guy that keeps changing the subject to Kucherov when he's out of arguments but in any case, this strawman argument adds nothing to the conversation.

As far as Nylander is concerned, he has delivered good value for his cap hit in the playoffs, Marner has not. That fact that Marner and Nylander have been decent compareables over the last few years only shows what a disappointment Marner has been considering he has been making more than 50% more than Nylander which is quite the gap.

1- Did the salary change anything in the fact than Nylander is not the same player playoff vs regular season? That's just telling marner was a better player when it was time for contract extension and Nylander got a late evolution, that's it

ps expectation going with what player doing in regular season, nobody will expect more from Stone because he won 1 M over draisaitl

2-You're the guys always changing the subject... Are you really serious? Move from Marner playing better in a north/south system to regular vs playoff ( an area where almost every leafs player becoming worst)... So just said it was the case with everyone you changing woth by carreer % production and proclamaing it was not the case withNylanderl and just showing it was not the case since he became a ppg player so you're changing it again to value vs result... But go ahead, i'm the guy whos constantly changing the subject...

 

[HellasLEAF]

Reading these reports, talk the cap could be up 19.3% in the next two years. You can afford three “big” contracts with that math, you can also stop using out dated numbers like they have anything to do with reality. I mean it’s your world, but it has nothing to do with what agents and GM’s around the league are computing. Things are changing, inflation is real and certain numbers aren’t as egregious as you argued months ago.

When some fans complain on and on about contracts it's clear some don't understand current NHL economics and the market.

 

[Gary Nylund]

But he was a failure over and over in the playoffs, why bet again on a losing core right? How many times can you guys say that? I’m merely showing how a serial failure player is now beloved and a cup winner, things change, players learn and they get raises. We can afford Marner, and you’re just going to overpay for others in free agency anyways. Yzerman is a good example of not giving up too early, unique talents are just that.

I just looked it up, to this point in his career, Yzerman had 62 points in 57 playoff games, in what world is that a failure?

Just because the team lost, that doesn't mean Yzerman failed. Remember Rielly season before last? HE played great, nobody blamed him for our failures. I remember watching Yzerman play too, he was an absolutely fantastic player and there was zero reason to even think about not keeping him in the fold. And as others have said, if there's no salary cap who cares? Pay Marner 30 million a year, doesn't matter to me.

And as I’ve said repeatedly, with a rising cap, we can afford other players now too. People are floating 105 mil for 26-27, with JT off the books, I fail to see how Marner isn’t doable, with additions. What am I missing here? And being a fan isn’t shilling, I just like the player is all. You’re backing a guy who isn’t even a Leafs fan, he’s just trolling, look at his post history, not one Leaf related comment, apart from Marner bashing. That isn’t agitating, that’s garbage.

Just because something's doable, doesn't mean doing it is the best thing to do for the team.

1- Did the salary change anything in the fact than Nylander is not the same player playoff vs regular season? That's just telling marner was a better player when it was time for contract extension and Nylander got a late evolution, that's it

Salary changes expectations. Do you hold an 11 million dollar player to the same standard as a 7 million dollar player. This is pretty basic stuff.

ps expectation going with what player doing in regular season, nobody will expect more from Stone because he won 1 M over draisaitl

2-You're the guys always changing the subject... Are you really serious? Move from Marner playing better in a north/south system to regular vs playoff ( an area where almost every leafs player becoming worst)... So just said it was the case with everyone you changing woth by carreer % production and proclamaing it was not the case withNylanderl and just showing it was not the case since he became a ppg player so you're changing it again to value vs result... But go ahead, i'm the guy whos constantly changing the subject...

I'm having trouble understanding what it is you're trying to say here.

But back to where we started, when you say stuff like I just don't like double standard acting like Marner was trash and the rest was better, I suggest you don't quote one of my posts. Doing so is nonsense because I never said that and come to think of it, I've never seen anyone else say that either. But if you do see someone say this feel free to quote them and argue with them, but if you're going to quote my posts and post this nonsense, I will most likely say it's nonsense every time.

 

[thewave]

I just looked it up, to this point in his career, Yzerman had 62 points in 57 playoff games, in what world is that a failure?

Just because the team lost, that doesn't mean Yzerman failed. Remember Rielly season before last? HE played great, nobody blamed him for our failures. I remember watching Yzerman play too, he was an absolutely fantastic player and there was zero reason to even think about not keeping him in the fold. And as others have said, if there's no salary cap who cares? Pay Marner 30 million a year, doesn't matter to me.

Just because something's doable, doesn't mean doing it is the best thing to do for the team.

Salary changes expectations. Do you hold an 11 million dollar player to the same standard as a 7 million dollar player. This is pretty basic stuff.

I'm having trouble understanding what it is you're trying to say here.

But back to where we started, when you say stuff like I just don't like double standard acting like Marner was trash and the rest was better, I suggest you don't quote one of my posts. Doing so is nonsense because I never said that and come to think of it, I've never seen anyone else say that either. But if you do see someone say this feel free to quote them and argue with them, but if you're going to quote my posts and post this nonsense, I will most likely say it's nonsense every time.

Well thought out responses. Good post

 

[thusk]

I just looked it up, to this point in his career, Yzerman had 62 points in 57 playoff games, in what world is that a failure?

Just because the team lost, that doesn't mean Yzerman failed. Remember Rielly season before last? HE played great, nobody blamed him for our failures. I remember watching Yzerman play too, he was an absolutely fantastic player and there was zero reason to even think about not keeping him in the fold. And as others have said, if there's no salary cap who cares? Pay Marner 30 million a year, doesn't matter to me.

Just because something's doable, doesn't mean doing it is the best thing to do for the team.

Salary changes expectations. Do you hold an 11 million dollar player to the same standard as a 7 million dollar player. This is pretty basic stuff.

I'm having trouble understanding what it is you're trying to say here.

But back to where we started, when you say stuff like I just don't like double standard acting like Marner was trash and the rest was better, I suggest you don't quote one of my posts. Doing so is nonsense because I never said that and come to think of it, I've never seen anyone else say that either. But if you do see someone say this feel free to quote them and argue with them, but if you're going to quote my posts and post this nonsense, I will most likely say it's nonsense every time.

if salary determine expectation so that's mean you had the same expecatation with Laine and Draisaitl? or same expectation with Josi and Nurse?

Expactation coming with what player showing on the ice

react like they're difference between regular and playoff for Marner but not as much for rest of the team when they all around the same %, for me its a double standard, yes...

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

And as I’ve said repeatedly, with a rising cap, we can afford other players now too. People are floating 105 mil for 26-27, with JT off the books, I fail to see how Marner isn’t doable, with additions. What am I missing here? And being a fan isn’t shilling, I just like the player is all. You’re backing a guy who isn’t even a Leafs fan, he’s just trolling, look at his post history, not one Leaf related comment, apart from Marner bashing. That isn’t agitating, that’s garbage.

What I think most of us miss is the fact that these agents don't go by dollars as much as cap %. That screws the team because there are no bargains. It's almost inflation adjusted...all the time. If Matthews signs for $13.25M and a few years later MM wants a deal...they will go by cap % which ends up giving MM money that is very close to AM if not more just because the cap is up.

Even role players get more because of this oddity. I just doubt that we can pull this trick off without anyone giving us a sweetheart deal. The only guy that gave anything back was Reilly and he isn't even living up to that deal at the moment.

 

[Gary Nylund]

if salary determine expectation so that's mean you had the same expecatation with Laine and Draisaitl? or same expectation with Josi and Nurse?

Expactation coming with what player showing on the ice

react like they're difference between regular and playoff for Marner but not as much for rest of the team when they all around the same %, for me its a double standard, yes...

I don't care about Laine and Draisaitl but I think it's safe to say that those paying Draisaitl were quite happy with what they got for their money whereas the people paying Laine's salary, not so much.

Let's stick to the Leafs shall we? And let's keep it really simple. I believe that the Leafs expected more from 11 million dollar Marner then they did from 7 million Nylander. Would you agree with that statement or not?

Someone did these calculations September 2023 based on the previous 5 years.

Matthews: 18% less points per game in the playoffs vs regular season
Marner: 24% less points per game in the playoffs
Nylander: 2% less points per game in the playoffs
Tavares: 27% less points per game in the playoffs.

Is 24% around the same as 2%? I only ask because they you say "they all around the same %,", you're wrong, period.

P.S. If we added numbers from 2024 into the mix it wouldn't help Marners case. 3 points in 7 games, yikes!

 

[thusk]

I don't care about Laine and Draisaitl but I think it's safe to say that those paying Draisaitl were quite happy with what they got for their money whereas the people paying Laine's salary, not so much.

Let's stick to the Leafs shall we? And let's keep it really simple. I believe that the Leafs expected more from 11 million dollar Marner then they did from 7 million Nylander. Would you agree with that statement or not?

Someone did these calculations September 2023 based on the previous 5 years.

Matthews: 18% less points per game in the playoffs vs regular season
Marner: 24% less points per game in the playoffs
Nylander: 2% less points per game in the playoffs
Tavares: 27% less points per game in the playoffs.

Is 24% around the same as 2%? I only ask because they you say "they all around the same %,", you're wrong, period.

P.S. If we added numbers from 2024 into the mix it wouldn't help Marners case. 3 points in 7 games, yikes!

last 3 year ( since when nylander became a ppg player)

pace/82 game played

Matthews
regular 107pts
playoff 37 89 pts pace drop of 20%

Nylander
regular 89bpts
playoff 74 pts
drop of 20%

marner
regular 104 pts
playoff 82 pts pace
drop of 27%

tavares
regular 76 pts
playoff 52 pts
drop of 46%

At the end the difference between drop is like 1 playoff pts less for marner innplayoff vs regular season vs matthews/nylander drop... Pretty small difference...


my expectation for Nylander stay the same, the only difference for mw is leafs gonna have less money to bring player around them...thats the only difference i see

If leafs want to have succes in playoff, they're only exist one way possible, get everyone playing like they should

 

[ToneDog]

And as I’ve said repeatedly, with a rising cap, we can afford other players now too. People are floating 105 mil for 26-27, with JT off the books, I fail to see how Marner isn’t doable, with additions. What am I missing here? And being a fan isn’t shilling, I just like the player is all. You’re backing a guy who isn’t even a Leafs fan, he’s just trolling, look at his post history, not one Leaf related comment, apart from Marner bashing. That isn’t agitating, that’s garbage.

How did Andropovsky get into this. My position all along is to wait until playoffs to sign if he performs. Worst case, if you must run it back, do not overpay like they did Nylander.

 

[Gary Nylund]

last 3 year ( since when nylander became a ppg player)

pace/82 game played

Matthews
regular 107pts
playoff 37 89 pts pace drop of 20%

Nylander
regular 89bpts
playoff 74 pts
drop of 20%

marner
regular 104 pts
playoff 82 pts pace
drop of 27%

tavares
regular 76 pts
playoff 52 pts
drop of 46%

At the end the difference between drop is like 1 playoff pts less for marner innplayoff vs regular season vs matthews/nylander drop... Pretty small difference...

my expectation for Nylander stay the same, the only difference for mw is leafs gonna have less money to bring player around them...thats the only difference i see

If leafs want to have succes in playoff, they're only exist one way possible, get everyone playing like they should

Yeah Marner got a bunch of points those first few games against TB before withering away but sure, those number make him look better for that same time span. If you look at the last 2 series we played, Marner was really bad against Florida and Boston whereas Nylander was pretty good.

To me, the 2 biggest playoff disappointments have been JT and Marner. Then Matthews is solidly in third place whereas Nylander has been pretty great. Now if Nylander had a cap hit of 11 million I wouldn't be so happy with him but for 7 million, he's been good value, especially when compared to M&M&JT, he's the one highly paid forward on our team who gives value in the playoffs, the only one.

For his career, Marner has been roughly a 100 point pace player for the first 86 games of the season, 82 regular season plus the first 4 playoff games. Then he turns into roughly a 40 point pace player. Do you have an opinion on why that is? Just an irrelevant statistical fluctution?

That disappearing act turns him into a 72 point player overall in the playoffs. Are you happy with that? If you are that's fine, we just disagree that's all. Cheers.

 

[LeafEgo]

Even if we assume the Tavares discount = the Marner raise on their next contracts, adding a Verhaeghe or Hagel would cost Domi + Kampf + Reaves. And that’s their UFA cost after putting up good seasons in the 3-5 mil range.

Again prior to this game the Kampf/Domi/Reaves group at 7-something mil combined had 0 goals, replacing them with minimum wagers would a sideways move at worst. If Domi picks it up from here that changes the calculus but so far we’ve survived 2 months getting minimum wage production from middle class cap hits.

I think that money goes to Knies, so we effectively shift from a 4-0 to 3-2 combination of stars to tier-2s. Another option is 2-4, where we could add a Verhaeghe and a Hagel on top.

I just think the impact is far greater managing the the top 47M in expenditure than the bottom 13M spread across eight players already. Not to mention 64M on forwards may be too rich to begin with. There needs to be a referendum this year on what configuration of resources will work.

I'm all for discovering that we have a winning combination with Tre/Chief at the helm but we're working on borrowed time here. The amigos themselves are going to start wondering if anyone really cares anymore.

 

[thusk]

Yeah Marner got a bunch of points those first few games against TB before withering away but sure, those number make him look better for that same time span. If you look at the last 2 series we played, Marner was really bad against Florida and Boston whereas Nylander was pretty good.

To me, the 2 biggest playoff disappointments have been JT and Marner. Then Matthews is solidly in third place whereas Nylander has been pretty great. Now if Nylander had a cap hit of 11 million I wouldn't be so happy with him but for 7 million, he's been good value, especially when compared to M&M&JT, he's the one highly paid forward on our team who gives value in the playoffs, the only one.

For his career, Marner has been roughly a 100 point pace player for the first 86 games of the season, 82 regular season plus the first 4 playoff games. Then he turns into roughly a 40 point pace player. Do you have an opinion on why that is? Just an irrelevant statistical fluctution?

That disappearing act turns him into a 72 point player overall in the playoffs. Are you happy with that? If you are that's fine, we just disagree that's all. Cheers.

Yeah for sure Nylander had been so great vs florida...
-one puck bouncing of a skate behind the net the jump direct on his stick in the slot, missed his shot who hit the post, hit the back of bobovsky and came back in.
-a pretty bad angle shot from peripheric with goalie just being weak... and those 2 goal are basically everything nylander did...2 lucky goal...Yeah Nylander had been so pretty good vs florida. It's exactly what i said... double standard. He was not even better than the rest of the team.

Boston series is the only in the last 3 year than nylander had been better and honestly i dont think marner was 100% coming back of his high ankle injury but we will probably never know.

If Marner would not be pretty good first few game vs tampa, maybe both series would be over in 4 especially in 2023 in the only series leafs won...game 1 to 4 matter as much than gm 5-6-7. if you're losing 4 of them whatever wich one, you're out. I don't understand the obcession for gm 5 to 7 over gm 1 to 4...

and like i said earlier, im pretty sure a more direct system will really help him in that part of the game. The futur will tel

 

[BraveCanadian]

Here’s a really good article for context. Funny how things change…. Sport.

View attachment 946350

All it takes is one huge playoff and/or win and the narrative will be completely different for our guys too.

One win overrides years and years of losing.