I would trade Marner for Matthew, but Brady literally is overrated and one of the most undisciplined stars in the league.
Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Continued
- Thread starter SoupNazi
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I would trade Marner for Matthew, but Brady literally is overrated and one of the most undisciplined stars in the league.
See, your take on this is what’s so perplexing to me. Why would you rather keep the same core that can’t seem to get the job done, instead of trying something different? You’re complaining about having guys like Holmberg and Robertson in the lineup, but that’s what you have to do when keeping that core or no n-playoffs performers…?
Vegas went over the cap by 10 million in order to win. No one is replicating that intentionally.
I do agree with that take. But I keep seeing people here and “reporters” such as Kypreos that thinks that Marner should be paid like Draisaitl, and that seems rather crazy tbh
Because history in the NHL says to keep your core or make a trade involving one of your core members. Not walking your best players to UFA. In the cap era there has not been a team that has walked their best player to UFA, signed a bunch of 30+ UFA’s past their primes and won the Stanley cup.
There just hasn’t, there have been teams who have traded players from their core and went to cup finals. But that option doesn’t exist for the leafs.
I don’t know what the option is, but it’s hard for me to believe that letting Marner walk and signing depth guys is going to turn this franchise into a Stanley cup winner. Coaching has been a big issue, I think the Leafs find success with a Berube type. That doesn’t make me a fan of Marner over the leafs. That makes me a leafs fan who is looking at UFA and recognizing there is no one there this year who will make us better. Well just end up with 3 or 4 horrible contracts as opposed to one.
Do you mean McDavid? First,he’s not a lone wolf on a team that consists of Drai, Ekholm, Hyman, Bouchard etc, but he’s also McDavid - the best player in years. He’s not comparable to a Marner-type of player…right?
Leafsfan74
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This is true.
What explains their first year then? They took a team of cast offs and drove them to the Cup.
Culture. That;s the difference.
Toronto has a culture of a Country Club. Win or lose, if you make the big dollars and smile for the camera, you will always get to play. Never benched, never publicly called out. Rarely questioned.
It would seem that Vegas created a culture of meritocracy driven winners right from day one. Similarily, compare the sports culture of the Leafs to the Bruins for instance. This isn't imaginary, it is real and it is based on ownership, management, player personnel and accountability for each other primarily. Everyone who follows sports know that this matters.
I get your point, but isn’t hard for you to see the Leafs winning with same core that underperforms year after year as well?
It sucks 100%. But I might be in the minority that still believes in this core. I think Berube is the right guy to get the most out of this core. I’m still in favour of waiting till after the playoffs. I don’t think we should commit to JT or Marner till we see how the season/playoffs shake out
I believe we severely lacked the proper culture under Dubas and Keefe, I think that has changed now with Treliving and Berube. They're both clearly on the same page.
ACC1224
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Is that what I said? I thought I said he wouldn’t be leaving for nothing…..
Maple Leaf
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Letting him go for nothing is poor asset management but talent can be replaced in free agency
his name is rantanen
Well, Marner is the one that usually gets most of the criticism the last couple of years, right? He’s also the one that is not signed to a long-term, NMC-deal right now. Tavares doesn’t really count since people aren’t throwing 10+ mil on him for his next deal
That is not a good supporting cast... the argument was a pack being better than a lone wolf... that lone wolf took his team to the finals over a bunch of packs, not sure why the name matters when the statement was a blanket statement.
Never said I'd rather keep the core together, I just don't subscribe to change automatically making a team better, you assigning an argument to me.
I also didn't complain about Robertson or Holmberg, what are you going on about?
Non playoff performers? He listed two as a replacement for Marner...
I don't know what you're talking about.
Evilhomer
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I wonder if some of that is the toxicity of the environment he is in. I would be curious to see what kind of player he could become in a well-run organization rather than the tire fire that is Ottawa.
Leafsfan74
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My lengthy take on this lazy Sunday as I type 80 wpms and think at 120 wpms lol.
You think his salary would just allow the signing of one depth player? You're not picking up a Holmberg or two with $11-12M dollars at your disposal.
He and the core were overpaid for these years because Dubas didn't negotiate properly and the pressure from the dipsh*t media in this city made it worse on the once younger GM.
Some of the same media talking heads today saying that you MUST keep and pay heavily for Marner are the same who said that the Leafs MUST overpay for Nylander when he held out rather than losing him for a season.
I try to be diplomatic when I think to myself, "these people have clearly never run a business before". The companies who owned the TV rights to the Leafs cost themselves tens of millions in lost revenue when the Leafs couldn't get past the first round. Great work treating individuals as the team instead of one small piece of a team. There is no player bigger than the team. Gretzky was traded and two years later the Oilers won the Cup yet again.
If Dubas had held the line on Nylander this team would have paid significantly less for their core during these RFA years. This is the reality of sport and it had to be conveyed to the players that there is a cap. All of them were overpaid for the leverage they had, which was basically "come to a reasonable agreement or go play in the KHL since we will always own your NHL rights".
So, knowing that these overpayments ensured that the Leafs couldn't ice a much stronger depth team,. something I said these players were going to learn first hand that their big contracts would ensure that winning a Cup was far more remote; (I asked on here "how many more cars or houses can you buy in exchange for remaining ringless"?) some of the same media are telling the Leafs, "hey make the mistake for another 7-8 years because we can and we will!"
As long as selling jerseys and corporate ads is their focus rather than long term revenue of icing a Cup winner, they will continue to lose.
Also, don't overestimate the opinion of any "sports expert", GM, media talking head or otherwise. Many of them are too close to the players to be objective quite frankly and they live in the echo chamber of their peers. This doesn't allow for them to always make the best prognosis. You, I or anyone else on this board can be just as accurate or even more accurate than they are, it's about the arguments and prior precedence.
Proof in the pudding is how few of us posted on here that we didn't like the overpayments in 2016/2017 and suggested this was going to handcuff the team from building a championship team. I acknowledged that perhaps 4 excessively paid forwards COULD win a Cup, but, it would mean a new paradigm.
Some of us didn't think the Leafs would beat Columbus even though it seemed like a dream matchup. Some of us also screamed that the Leafs make their changes after they lost to the Habs.
We now know the results of the top heavy salary distribution, a perfect pearson correlation value of 1. The solution is to repeat the error? Maybe year 10 and 11 will be different just as some postulated that year 5 or 6 might be different...
All those suggesting, "well the cap goes up so the Leafs will be fine" fail to understand that the cap will go up for every team, so it will be the same situation for the Leafs relative to their competition. Those who use their space best, with the right balance of Gamers, will win.
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1. Have you looked at UFA for 2025? It’s utter dog crap. No playoff performers on that list.
2. UFA is a huge gamble. You have to convince those players to come here. We saw it last year, the leafs were in on about everyone and how many guys said no. Montour told the media he wasn’t that interested. Same with Roy, same with Gudas. Having money to spend doesn’t = that you will automatically sign Bennett and Ehlers. It has to make sense for those players.
I’m curious to know who you would target if you were GM and how much would you pay those players.
Me too but that’s wishful thinking there’s no proof that suggests otherwise but I’m as optimistic as you are my friend
Leafsfan74
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You're not wrong and without question this issue should have been dealt with before their NTCs kicked in. That was the critical time frame and whichever rocket scientist in the front office refused to trade one or two of their core should be publicly shamed for their arrogance and lack of hockey management.
This franchise is a dream for players because it's a clubhouse. The problem is, that same clubhouse reputation deters real Gamers from taking interest in coming here. "To hell with the easy street clubhouse mentality, I want to win the damn Cup!". Thus, as you suggest, they reject coming here. None of the serious Gamers we have are from the UFA pool, such as Knies, McMann, McCabe and Benoit.
Berube has done a good job, maybe even a great job of getting them to play a different brand of hockey. The odd yelling on the bench is welcome and keeps them focused and accountable. I would caution him or the fans to appreciate that two of their core are playing for a big contract, to try and play for Team Canada (admirable it is), and, most importantly; it has been night and day between regular season and playoffs so gauge accordingly.
I don't know the answer to the question that you raise other than to say that players lose favor with other teams and if Leafs have $20M+ in cap space they can squeeze better transactions from team who are looking to shed salary. They don't have to just rely on UFA signings. They will finally have much needed and critical cap space. Even if they started the next year with $15M or more to play with, they can patiently pick their spots.
This is why I was adament that when the UFA situations arise, such as Petrioangelo (who I was big on Leafs trying to pick up as it didn't cost anything more than cash) or others, that the Leafs needed to put loyalty aside for championship pedigree.
Think of the following transactions this year alone: Stolarz, Tanav, Lorentz. How many Leaf fans saw them on the radar, and/or how much did fans underestimate the impact of the signings?
That is what the GM and his teams job is outlined as, "Improve the team and build a Cup winner".
If we look at the responses from the fans, I'm sure many did not like the terms or the pickups. Little star power and Tanev simply brought a warrior mentality which many Leaf fans seem to under appreciate perhaps.
Now, give a GM $20M+ dollars with the increase to the Cap and find similar players. You may lose 100 point player in Marner but you replace him with 2-3 others who fill out the roster.
If you are going to pay top players top dollar they need to show up when the big games arrive otherwise it is a waste of salary cap space and it prevents you from rolling a balanced lineup that makes life difficult for the opposition,.
Listening to Steve dangle and he sad Marner and Rantanen are asking for 14 mil.
Where would he here this from or is he full of it.
Where would he here this from or is he full of it.
ToneDog
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He's probably hearing it from the same source as Kyer and Lebrun. Kyper said Drai money one day and then back tracked the next and said $13.8m. Lebrun says he "expects" Marner to ask for $14m. It was posted earlier this week and some argued Marner was not asking $14m, Rantanen was.
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