Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Continued

[francis246]

I say never say never.

For me the golden grail would be winning the Cup and winning the Conn Smythe. Any player in Toronto who achieves this most rare feat would be paid whatever their asking price is. The Leafs franchise would double their revenue overnight.

Of course, I probably have a better chance of winning the lottery...

Meh I don’t really believe that to be true. Teams walk away from key players after cups all the time. I don’t think blank cheques would be handed out to anyone besides the star players and maybe a Knies.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Meh I don’t really believe that to be true. Teams walk away from key players after cups all the time. I don’t think blank cheques would be handed out to anyone besides the star players and maybe a Knies.

As much as the Leafs franchise is ubiquitous with the terms "poor ownership and perpetual losers", if they did happen to win the Cup and a goalie wins the Conn Smythe trophy, the team would want to repeat. This would mean rewarding what would have most certainly have been the key reason why they won.

Just the optics of losing that player whoever it is wouldn't bode well for the team

 

[keonsbitterness]

He'll be doing himself a favour

If you mean so he can get an eighth year, he didn't care about that before.

I think you missed the point.

The reason we need depth is beause Marner disappears in the playoffs. If we replace him with someone who doesn't, it isn't nearly as important.

Lots of things would have to fall in place for Rantanen to be a Leaf, including giving him more than Matthews. It's more likely Marner would be replaced by overpaid free agents over 30 who probably don't have great playoff histories.

 

[barilko05]

As much as the Leafs franchise is ubiquitous with the terms "poor ownership and perpetual losers", if they did happen to win the Cup and a goalie wins the Conn Smythe trophy, the team would want to repeat. This would mean rewarding what would have most certainly have been the key reason why they won.

Just the optics of losing that player whoever it is wouldn't bode well for the team

I don't know. The whole thing is breaking that drought. If they do it, the deed is done. Do you want to repeat? Absolutely. But if Marner has a good playoff...not a great, Smythe winning one...and goes looking for more $$ than Matthews in FA...I think the Leafs go "Nah. We're over the hump. We're going to take your money, and spread it around and make this team less reliant on 4 top guys." Tavares gets the same treatment. 3.5 to 4m for 3 years. Not this 6 or 7 that's been popping up in the media lately. With a cup win, the pressure will be off, and Tre can re-tool to make this team a TRUE powerhouse for an extended period of time, even if they have to have a down, after Cup-win year.

 

[thusk]

We were primarily a possession based offensive team under Keefe. That's different than a rush based team

Majority of scoring chance from keefe system was coming off the rush and was agressive on transition, resulting in a lot of turnover against ( where let's the leafs beat themself) After blaming like marner, nylander, matthews for those missed on transition but it was the system who was like that.

When leafs having the puck in offensive end and attack of the rush didn't work, yes they became possession team with cycling unstead space open up somewhere. With D doing minimal of thing in the offensive end ( except when trailing). Trying for the perfect play over and over again and basically never taking shot with D. So team just let leafs skating in the outside and protecting the middle and it was over .leafs D was basically never involve come playoff time offensively so its like leafs playing at 3v5 on a possession game

For me they are 2 way to see possession style.
1- Try to keep the puck as much you can when you got him( pretty close of what leafs did under keefe). You get the puck a lot when you got it but leafs was playing much more when they was without the puck before trheybwas struggling to get the puck back

2- Try to get back the puck as much you can by winning puck battle ( closest of Berube system). When you've got the puck you playing less with but at the same time playing less without by winning more battle.

So sorry, im not really sure if keefe system wqs really better for possession especially against good team, where leafs was losing most of the time possession battle.

 

[Leafsfan74]

I don't know. The whole thing is breaking that drought. If they do it, the deed is done. Do you want to repeat? Absolutely. But if Marner has a good playoff...not a great, Smythe winning one...and goes looking for more $$ than Matthews in FA...I think the Leafs go "Nah. We're over the hump. We're going to take your money, and spread it around and make this team less reliant on 4 top guys." Tavares gets the same treatment. 3.5 to 4m for 3 years. Not this 6 or 7 that's been popping up in the media lately. With a cup win, the pressure will be off, and Tre can re-tool to make this team a TRUE powerhouse for an extended period of time, even if they have to have a down, after Cup-win year.

Yeah it's silly for us to even raise the prospect of a Cup, It's a pipe dream.

I've repeated that I don't expect this franchise to win a Cup in my lifetime and I've been watching them since I was 8 years old. Hence my hope that for once they have the brains to do what is right.

In the worst case scenario, they sign him with a full no trade contract. It's not what I would do if I am serious about winning a Cup, absent at least a Final Four finish and him performing like someone who can handle the tight, physical games and pressure cooker of playoffs.

 

[notDatsyuk]

So what do you think he's paid?

Whether we are talking $ or %, I don't think he should be making more than Nylander, so not more than $10M (I don't think Willy should be making more than $10M either).

Particularly if he's going to get more than $12, I would rather he not get it here.

I wouldn't be shocked if he got $13 here or elsewhere.

To be fair Nylander is $2-3M overpaid

He doesn’t make any of his teammates better.

Couldn’t even drive a 3rd line

Nylander has been driving the second line for at least two years.

 

[barilko05]

Yeah it's silly for us to even raise the prospect of a Cup, It's a pipe dream.

I've repeated that I don't expect this franchise to win a Cup in my lifetime and I've been watching them since I was 8 years old. Hence my hope that for once they have the brains to do what is right.

In the worst case scenario, they sign him with a full no trade contract. It's not what I would do if I am serious about winning a Cup, absent at least a Final Four finish and him performing like someone who can handle the tight, physical games and pressure cooker of playoffs.

I think unless Mitch continues as he has been in AM's absense...carrying the team for the most part...he's gone whether we win or not. If we win and he's just another piece, we say "Farewell. Come back and see us at the ring ceremony." If we don't win, then why pay premium dollars to a guy who can't step up when it matters?

 

[Gallagbi]

Majority of scoring chance from keefe system was coming off the rush and was agressive on transition, resulting in a lot of turnover against ( where let's the leafs beat themself) After blaming like marner, nylander, matthews for those missed on transition but it was the system who was like that.

When leafs having the puck in offensive end and attack of the rush didn't work, yes they became possession team with cycling unstead space open up somewhere. With D doing minimal of thing in the offensive end ( except when trailing). Trying for the perfect play over and over again and basically never taking shot with D. So team just let leafs skating in the outside and protecting the middle and it was over .leafs D was basically never involve come playoff time offensively so its like leafs playing at 3v5 on a possession game

For me they are 2 way to see possession style.
1- Try to keep the puck as much you can when you got him( pretty close of what leafs did under keefe). You get the puck a lot when you got it but leafs was playing much more when they was without the puck before trheybwas struggling to get the puck back

2- Try to get back the puck as much you can by winning puck battle ( closest of Berube system). When you've got the puck you playing less with but at the same time playing less without by winning more battle.

So sorry, im not really sure if keefe system wqs really better for possession especially against good team, where leafs was losing most of the time possession battle.

I really don't think your analysis is accurate in any of the above. Rush and possession teams are typically counter to eachother. Your breakdown of possession options 1&2 aren't both possession based teams. Your whole second grouping is about puck recovery, not puck retention (possession). We haven't abandoned possession outright, but we're clearly less focused on it now than under Keefe.

You can argue Keefes system didn't create enough offense in the playoffs. You can say you like what we're doing better now. But it's a really tough sell to say he was a rush based offensive coach. We saw a bit more of it last year because of the personnel and I'd argue that was our worst offensive playoffs. For the most part the Leafs were happy to make possession based choices, not risking possession for a quick opportunity and find space in the offensive through puck movement

 

[Leafsfan74]

I think unless Mitch continues as he has been in AM's absense...carrying the team for the most part...he's gone whether we win or not. If we win and he's just another piece, we say "Farewell. Come back and see us at the ring ceremony." If we don't win, then why pay premium dollars to a guy who can't step up when it matters?

This is the Leafs. They will sign him and the media will celebrate.

Toronto is not a real sports city unfortunately.

 

[capfit9]

If you mean so he can get an eighth year, he didn't care about that before.

Lots of things would have to fall in place for Rantanen to be a Leaf, including giving him more than Matthews. It's more likely Marner would be replaced by overpaid free agents over 30 who probably don't have great playoff histories.

That was a completely different context. This time it will be hard to make up $12M - $13M in lost salary in the latter part of his career even when considering tax implications in different markets. The 8th year is an absolute hammer for the Leafs.

 

[Action Jackson]

Typical reggie season Marner. This is how he earns his cheques.

Wake this thread up in the playoffs, when the men come to play

 

[thusk]

I really don't think your analysis is accurate in any of the above. Rush and possession teams are typically counter to eachother. Your breakdown of possession options 1&2 aren't both possession based teams. Your whole second grouping is about puck recovery, not puck retention (possession).

You can argue Keefes system didn't create enough offense in the playoffs. You can say you like what we're doing better now. But it's a really tough sell to say he was a rush based offensive coach. We saw a bit more of it last year because of the personnel and I'd argue that was our worst offensive playoffs

possession just mean keefe liked to enter in offensive with possession of the puck ( so get scoring chance off the rush) and keep it in a cycling game.

Basically every team except maybe Tampa ( outside of gm 7 in 2022 ) did the same exact thing vs Toronto and was working. Columbus, Montreal, Florida, Boston they all beat the leafs the same way...

Opposite team was just waiting in neutral zone to make it pretty hard for leafs to enter in offensive zone in puck possession ( so at the same time removing scoring chance off the rush). When leafs finally enter in offensive end, they was protecting the net at 5 until a losing puck in the corner where they becoming agressive to get the puck back and won 80-90% of battle.

 

[Gallagbi]

possession just mean keefe liked to enter in offensive with possession of the puck ( so get scoring chance off the rush) and keep it in a cycling game.

That's not what possession means. And moving from a rush opportunity to a cycle rarely occurs. Again, I'd say the style is counter (rush and cycle)

Basically every team except maybe Tampa ( outside of gm 7 in 2022 ) did the same exact thing vs Toronto and was working. Columbus, Montreal, Florida, Boston they all beat the leafs the same way...

Boston, Florida and TB all played us VERY differently than CBJ and MTL. Oddly enough, MTL, was a heavy rush team in how they generated offense.

Boston, especially last year, controlled the majority of the play. TB in their final series was similar to that. Florida put pucks deep and caused turnovers down low as a result. Montreal bled chances, and quality ones in hopes of a counter where they could capitalize. CLB shutdown both ends of the rink, chances were light for both teams and they relied on traffic for goals

 

[barilko05]

Y

That's not what possession means. And moving from a rush opportunity to a cycle rarely occurs. Again, I'd say the style is counter (rush and cycle)


Boston, Florida and TB all played us VERY differently than CBJ and MTL. Oddly enough, MTL, was a heavy rush team in how they generated offense.

Boston, especially last year, controlled the majority of the play. TB in their final series was similar to that. Florida put pucks deep and caused turnovers down low as a result. Montreal bled chances, and quality ones in hopes of a counter where they could capitalize. CLB shutdown both ends of the rink, chances were light for both teams and they relied on traffic for goals

Yeah, lets not lump Montreal in with Tampa and Boston. Montreal didn't beat us...Carey Price did, plain and simple.

 

[thewave]

Y

Yeah, lets not lump Montreal in with Tampa and Boston. Montreal didn't beat us...Carey Price did, plain and simple.

Puck over the boards defeated us

 

[Confucius]

Typical reggie season Marner. This is how he earns his cheques.

Wake this thread up in the playoffs, when the men come to play

5 months from now, you must be joking. Read some posts, people complaining there are so many days between games. I’d think we’d like to win more than we lose .

 

[frizzer1]

Without Matthews this team averaged 1 goal 5 on 5..
And that was mostly marner.
Without Marner it would likely be the same.
Plus… marner is excellent defensively and on the pk.
Without him there is a good chance that they would miss the playoffs.
Good defense an goaltending is fine but with little offense they can’t compete for a cup.

 

[Smif]

Agree but the reason why I’d say I agree with the wave also is cause he was way overpaid on his first deal Nylander over paid on his second deal there shouldn’t be a second over pay


When has he never been able to drive a 3rd line?

Hmmm, I'm not sure Nylander makes his linemates better but he can score on his own despite not having good linemates.

 

[Mr_Fun]

Another 2 points tonight. Hes pacing at 110 pts right now. Had a beauty of an assist 5v5.

Berube needs to move Lorentz or even Robertson into Holmbergs spot. Holmberg is killing JT and MM’s vibe on that line.

 

[Aashir]

Can’t lie, dudes been a beast

Was only able to catch the last few minutes but he has been continuing to produce

The playoffs are an enormous huge question mark no doubt, but there’s nothing he can do about those now, so I’ll take production at this level at the very minimum.

 

[arso40]

Hmmm, I'm not sure Nylander makes his linemates better but he can score on his own despite not having good linemates.

Both things can be true can’t it?

 

[Hallonbroder]

Hi there! Here because of the yearly “Marner’s a beast at racking up assists in the regular season and killing penalties when the ice is bigger, but disappears when it matters and when teams take away Marners ice and space”-thingy.

I’ve noticed how he’s been a big contributor when AM was gone, driving his own line for once as well. Of course the playoffs are far away and all but.. are you Leafs fans really ready to throw 12-14 mil at the guy for doing what he’s usually doing, not knowing if he’s going to take this play with him into the playoffs this year around? If so, what indicated that he’s changed?

There’s q lot of talk about the leafs lack of depth - wouldn’t that be solved by using those millions on exactly that, instead of just doing the same thing year after year?

Are you as leafs fans content on seeing your top players have great regular seasons and then have nothing to show for it at the end?

This kind of baffles me tbh. Like, I can’t find a comparable team and management style anywhere in football (soccer) for example, where the fans would be content on having the top scorer every year but never winning.

I guess what I’m getting at is - do you love the player more than the team?

 

[thewave]

Another 2 points tonight. Hes pacing at 110 pts right now. Had a beauty of an assist 5v5.

Berube needs to move Lorentz or even Robertson into Holmbergs spot. Holmberg is killing JT and MM’s vibe on that line.

Mitch always does this this time of year. Its late January and Feb we need to watch these guys. He is playing balls out for a Dec contract and then will revert.

Holmberg is awful.

 

[thewave]

Hi there! Here because of the yearly “Marner’s a beast at racking up assists in the regular season and killing penalties when the ice is bigger, but disappears when it matters and when teams take away Marners ice and space”-thingy.

I’ve noticed how he’s been a big contributor when AM was gone, driving his own line for once as well. Of course the playoffs are far away and all but.. are you Leafs fans really ready to throw 12-14 mil at the guy for doing what he’s usually doing, not knowing if he’s going to take this play with him into the playoffs this year around? If so, what indicated that he’s changed?

There’s q lot of talk about the leafs lack of depth - wouldn’t that be solved by using those millions on exactly that, instead of just doing the same thing year after year?

Are you as leafs fans content on seeing your top players have great regular seasons and then have nothing to show for it at the end?

This kind of baffles me tbh. Like, I can’t find a comparable team and management style anywhere in football (soccer) for example, where the fans would be content on having the top scorer every year but never winning.

I guess what I’m getting at is - do you love the player more than the team?

Some people on this board seem to love the player more than the team. It's strange to see people arguing to pay a player more money and ignore legitimate flaws.

We know but it's a vast minority doing that.