Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Continued

[Gilmour1996]

I don't think it's fair judging him on last year's playoffs because he was recovering from a high ankle sprain which is tough to do. Not sure we should even completely question his play under Keefe either. Seems like a far better fit under Berube. I don't like his personality when being interviewed but what he does on the ice is more important. I think I'd like to see him re-signed for less than maximum term, possibly for 5 years or so, assuming the coach and GM agree.

 

[francis246]

Against Edmonton, Mitchy showed up, he took charge, he took responsibility, he led, he shot when he should. I often question his value to Leafs.
I cannot question him in most games this season. I may have to rethink my position on his value.

Marner just needs to bring this in the playoffs damn it. He’s fully capable. All 4 of our big guys are. My hope is that we keep him away from Matthews. Keep the Tavares, McMann and Marner line together. Matthews, Knies and Domi or throw Nylander up there. But if we want success we have to go back to Tampa series. Marner away from Matthews was incredible against Tampa.

You know the NHL changed the rule so any team can talk to players before July 1st? Did you think all these contracts that get signed first thing July 1st happened in 30 seconds? Obviously teams talk to players before July 1st. If you're trading for a players rights, you should be signing him before July 1st.

Let me ask you this then. How much are you willing to pay Marner before you think about walking away? Some people want to hand him a blank cheque for some reason.

I know there’s a negotiation period. But it’s not 2 years in advance. It’s a week or two before UFA. So how can you convince McDavid to come without tampering before that. You risk loosing one good player and missing out on McDavid.

Personally I think anything over 12 is too much. I’m not a delusional fan. I’d like to see him at 11.5 or take any number under 12. Short term at 4 years.

 

[Divine]

I know there’s a negotiation period. But it’s not 2 years in advance. It’s a week or two before UFA. So how can you convince McDavid to come without tampering before that. You risk loosing one good player and missing out on McDavid.

Personally I think anything over 12 is too much. I’m not a delusional fan. I’d like to see him at 11.5 or take any number under 12. Short term at 4 years.

I don't mean start negotiating with McDavid now. Just sign some 1 year contracts, keep some cap space open. Technically we could have both Marner and McDavid, with McDavid replacing Tavares. I think the possibility of McDavid coming to Toronto is greater than people here would like to think. He has lots of connections to here, has publicly commented last season that Toronto is his favourite team to watch, despite knowing Edmonton fans would lose their minds over it and has publicly stated he wishes his family could watch more of his games but they got to go to sleep.

I'm not even sure Marner settles for 12M. I think that's being generous, especially if you want him for 4 years. His last contract he was arguing he's just as valuable as Matthews and held out, and that was as an RFA. He doesn't come across as the kind of guy to take a team friendly contract. He just watched Draisaitl take 14M and Matthews take 13.5M. I would bet his ask is 13.5M, just as his RFA ask was the same as Matthews.

 

[thewave]

Marner just needs to bring this in the playoffs damn it. He’s fully capable. All 4 of our big guys are. My hope is that we keep him away from Matthews. Keep the Tavares, McMann and Marner line together. Matthews, Knies and Domi or throw Nylander up there. But if we want success we have to go back to Tampa series. Marner away from Matthews was incredible against Tampa.



I know there’s a negotiation period. But it’s not 2 years in advance. It’s a week or two before UFA. So how can you convince McDavid to come without tampering before that. You risk loosing one good player and missing out on McDavid.

Personally I think anything over 12 is too much. I’m not a delusional fan. I’d like to see him at 11.5 or take any number under 12. Short term at 4 years.

The NMCs kill the team. I wish they were gone from the league. I get a 10 team list or something like that but no movement is flat out stupid.

 

[Nineteen67]

He looks and is playing more mature right now.

 

[thusk]

I don't mean start negotiating with McDavid now. Just sign some 1 year contracts, keep some cap space open. Technically we could have both Marner and McDavid, with McDavid replacing Tavares. I think the possibility of McDavid coming to Toronto is greater than people here would like to think. He has lots of connections to here, has publicly commented last season that Toronto is his favourite team to watch, despite knowing Edmonton fans would lose their minds over it and has publicly stated he wishes his family could watch more of his games but they got to go to sleep.

I'm not even sure Marner settles for 12M. I think that's being generous, especially if you want him for 4 years. His last contract he was arguing he's just as valuable as Matthews and held out, and that was as an RFA. He doesn't come across as the kind of guy to take a team friendly contract. He just watched Draisaitl take 14M and Matthews take 13.5M. I would bet his ask is 13.5M, just as his RFA ask was the same as Matthews.

Like the chance stamkos to move in Toronto. Mcdavid will stay with his good friend Draisaitl in Edmonton, his life is already in Edmonton, they just reached stanley cup final and mcdavid look pretty happy there. Mcdavid in toronto is closer to a dream of an option

 

[thusk]

The NMCs kill the team. I wish they were gone from the league. I get a 10 team list or something like that but no movement is flat out stupid.

They never asked him to waive it, so why it should had killed the team? NMC matter when you need to ask to waive it and player reject it, outside of it that' just don't have any impact

 

[ACC1224]

There were reports in Marner’s last negotiation that he wanted close to Matthews contract. I doubt he still feels that way. But what I’m saying is people act like only the stars in Toronto want to be paid. No stars across the league want to be paid as well. We just don’t hear about it as much.

From my understanding they were initially looking for 8.5x8 which Dubas wasn’t interested in. Once he signed Matthews the gap between the 8.5 and Matthews was too great and needed to be closer, rightfully so.

The problem potentially this time around could be the Nylander overpay.

 

[Zybalto]

Special teams aside, I hope things like the Domi signing arnt more of the same for the lack of support our big guns get in the playoffs.

Yet more fun stats:

Last 3 years in the playoffs 5v5 /60:

Marner and Rielly on a line:
Goals For: 3.22
Goals Against: 1.46

Marner without Rielly on a line:
Goals For: 2.98
Goals Against: 1.91

Rielly without Marner on a line:
Goals For: 2.99
Goals Against: 1.59

All lines without Rielly and Marner:
Goals For: 1.17
Goals Against: 3.00

Jeezus thats a brutal difference.

Gotta make the right calls with support players and the Leafs have been the worst team in the league at that (not to mention we've started Campbell and Samsonov the last 4 years)

Thowing in Nylander/Tavares and Matthews, the numbers still read:

All lines without the big 5 last 3 years playoffs:
Goals For: 1.39
Goals Against: 2.82

You can expect a little drop off but thats just an insane clip. Its San Jose Sharks level........ for lines that did this during the regular season:

All lines without the big 5 regular season last 3 years:
Goals For: 2.25
Goals Against: 2.22

Gotta pick the right supporting cast for sure.

 

[Divine]

Like the chance stamkos to move in Toronto. Mcdavid will stay with his good friend Draisaitl in Edmonton, his life is already in Edmonton, they just reached stanley cup final and mcdavid look pretty happy there. Mcdavid in toronto is closer to a dream of an option

Just like Tavares to Toronto was a dream until it happened.

To be fair, the Leafs said no to Stamkos’ contract demands - he was willing to come here but people often leave that part out.

 

[Enga Olly]

You complain about my honesty then call me a liar. Do you lack the intelligence to see your own hypocrisy? Get lost and don't answer that since the answer is so obvious.

Never complained about your honesty - how could i?

 

[LeafSteel]

From my understanding they were initially looking for 8.5x8 which Dubas wasn’t interested in. Once he signed Matthews the gap between the 8.5 and Matthews was too great and needed to be closer, rightfully so.

The problem potentially this time around could be the Nylander overpay.

Perfect summation of the missteps that put us where we are today.

Dubas absolutely screwed the pooch on the 1st Marner contract. Marner would have been perfectly place in an 8 x $8.5 contract, and his popularity amongst Leaf fans would be where it should be, with a reasonable contract.

It would have avoided the whole contentious contract negotiation that soured a lot of Leaf fans, as well as the constant expectation that Marner and Matthews be compensated along the same lines.

2nd misstep was Treliving’s contract with Nylander.

Nylander well outplayed his 1st contract, but bumping him to $11.5 was a stupid overpay, particularly if the plan has always been to resign Marner.

Nylander resigned at $9-$9.5m is where we needed to have landed. It’s within market price and would have still been a decent pay raise for him. That also would set the value for Marner’s camp to see. Marner’s camp need to stop comparing his value to Matthews.

Now we have this cluster-fukc of a situation where Nylander has been overpaid and a portion of the fan base are hating on an extremely talented player of the team, almost entirely due to being desperate to not have to overpay him.

I like Mitch Marner at 9.5-$10. I don’t like Mitch Marner at $12-$13m.

Amazing what a mess mismanagement has made with these 2 players. We really didn’t need to be in this position.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Good to see that he’s going to the net a lot more. Still not big on how effective the dispy doodling up high is but it sure is more fun to watch when he’s confident than it is when he’s second guessing.

 

[thusk]

Just like Tavares to Toronto was a dream until it happened.

To be fair, the Leafs said no to Stamkos’ contract demands - he was willing to come here but people often leave that part out.

Tavares was in a bad team who was going anywhere
vs
Mcdavid playing in a contending team who was stanley cup finalist

Stamkos wanted to stay in Tampa and had no interest of leaving tampa unstead he achieve his goal to win a cup there...

 

[thewave]

They never asked him to waive it, so why it should had killed the team? NMC matter when you need to ask to waive it and player reject it, outside of it that' just don't have any impact

This can not be a serious post. I swear of all the things I have read here. This is lol. This pinnacle and anyone who agrees with this I mean flat out lol.

Now unlike the Marner camp I will even explain the why and how.

Once you ask a player to waive the thing they fought for and negotiated into their contract, it damages your relationship going forward. If you can not find a suitable trade you have a ruined relationship. If the deal falls through, ruined relationship and ability to negotiate going forward. This obviously is disadvantagious for the team and kind of stupid vs eliminating NMCs and stop stupid GMs from doing stupid deals going forward.

 

[notdoneyet]

Perfect summation of the missteps that put us where we are today.

Dubas absolutely screwed the pooch on the 1st Marner contract. Marner would have been perfectly place in an 8 x $8.5 contract, and his popularity amongst Leaf fans would be where it should be, with a reasonable contract.

It would have avoided the whole contentious contract negotiation that soured a lot of Leaf fans, as well as the constant expectation that Marner and Matthews be compensated along the same lines.

2nd misstep was Treliving’s contract with Nylander.

Nylander well outplayed his 1st contract, but bumping him to $11.5 was a stupid overpay, particularly if the plan has always been to resign Marner.

Nylander resigned at $9-$9.5m is where we needed to have landed. It’s within market price and would have still been a decent pay raise for him. That also would set the value for Marner’s camp to see. Marner’s camp need to stop comparing his value to Matthews.

Now we have this cluster-fukc of a situation where Nylander has been overpaid and a portion of the fan base are hating on an extremely talented player of the team, almost entirely due to being desperate to not have to overpay him.

I like Mitch Marner at 9.5-$10. I don’t like Mitch Marner at $12-$13m.

Amazing what a mess mismanagement has made with these 2 players. We really didn’t need to be in this position.

First of all you claim the marner negotiations were contentious but there was only one player who missed games and was a contentious signing and that was nylander.
The biggest mistake is giving matthews everything he wants like most money and shortest contract years.

In my opinion we will never win a cup with matthews . Doesn’t have the killer instinct and just wants all the money he can get.

 

[thusk]

This can not be a serious post. I swear of all the things I have read here. This is lol. This pinnacle and anyone who agrees with this I mean flat out lol.

Now unlike the Marner camp I will even explain the why and how.

Once you ask a player to waive the thing they fought for and negotiated into their contract, it damages your relationship going forward. If you can not find a suitable trade you have a ruined relationship. If the deal falls through, ruined relationship and ability to negotiate going forward. This obviously is disadvantagious for the team and kind of stupid vs eliminating NMCs and stop stupid GMs from doing stupid deals going forward.

Even with no trade list, most of team he woukd refuse to play would also be in a no-trade 15 team list ( who probably min recquire for a stars). I just think people overreacting with NMC...

 

[Apex Predator]

Credit is due for marners play with Matthews out.. he had elevated his game!

 

[BraveCanadian]

Imagine being so hung up on Marners deal from years ago when we’re at the point it is time for the next one.

Yeah Dubas screwed up everything with his dumb contracts but that goes for the bunch of them, not just Marner.

At this point it’s history.

Unfortunately the recent ones don’t look much better.

 

[AvroArrow]

I'm so happy Marner is making me shut the f*** up and proving me wrong

He looks different this year. It's not about the points, it's HOW he's playing. The level of intensity on both ends of the ice, he's driving plays, he's engaged physically and along the boards, he's not scared to shoot and he's not forcing passes.

Hoping he can continue this into the playoffs, but he's been hands down our most dominant and complete player this season AINEC

We all talk about "lets see him do it in the playoffs" Based on his intensity and willingness to engage physically this year, I think we will see it translate in the playoffs. Not sure if he's improving because of Berube or maybe his own drive, maybe both, but the guy looks phenomenal every single shift.

 

[Roo]

Frankly, the Marner we are seeing now is the one before he got stapled to Matthews by Keefe. We’re clearly a better team with him driving his own line.

 

[Ports]

Special teams aside, I hope things like the Domi signing arnt more of the same for the lack of support our big guns get in the playoffs.

Yet more fun stats:

Last 3 years in the playoffs 5v5 /60:

Marner and Rielly on a line:
Goals For: 3.22
Goals Against: 1.46

Marner without Rielly on a line:
Goals For: 2.98
Goals Against: 1.91

Rielly without Marner on a line:
Goals For: 2.99
Goals Against: 1.59

All lines without Rielly and Marner:
Goals For: 1.17
Goals Against: 3.00

Jeezus thats a brutal difference.

Gotta make the right calls with support players and the Leafs have been the worst team in the league at that (not to mention we've started Campbell and Samsonov the last 4 years)

Thowing in Nylander/Tavares and Matthews, the numbers still read:

All lines without the big 5 last 3 years playoffs:
Goals For: 1.39
Goals Against: 2.82

You can expect a little drop off but thats just an insane clip. Its San Jose Sharks level........ for lines that did this during the regular season:

All lines without the big 5 regular season last 3 years:
Goals For: 2.25
Goals Against: 2.22

Gotta pick the right supporting cast for sure.

Notice how Berube plays Rielly less than his other top four dman. Bottom six is definitely devoid of scoring. They need to pick up a good two way 3C or have one of Marner or Nylander drive the third line.

 

[francis246]

I'm so happy Marner is making me shut the f*** up and proving me wrong

He looks different this year. It's not about the points, it's HOW he's playing. The level of intensity on both ends of the ice, he's driving plays, he's engaged physically and along the boards, he's not scared to shoot and he's not forcing passes.

Hoping he can continue this into the playoffs, but he's been hands down our most dominant and complete player this season AINEC

We all talk about "lets see him do it in the playoffs" Based on his intensity and willingness to engage physically this year, I think we will see it translate in the playoffs. Not sure if he's improving because of Berube or maybe his own drive, maybe both, but the guy looks phenomenal every single shift.

Excellent post, I think it’s a combination of both. I think this is the perfect blend of coaching staff. When have we had a coaching staff so passionate? Did yall see Marc Savards reaction after the Knies goal? I think this coaching staff demands a lot from the players. In turn the players are driven to be the best the can be.

I hope Marner will continue this past game 82. It’s what we’ve been waiting for

 

[Dekes For Days]

No player has never not hit 40 goals and got 12M dollars. This isn’t even debateable, it’s a fact.

That's not a fact. McDavid got 12.5m with a career high of 30 goals.
And when you don't weirdly use absolute cap numbers...
Crosby, Richards, Tavares, Thornton, Spezza, Drury, Panarin, Forsberg, Gomez, Datsyuk, Kane, Toews, Kopitar, etc.

 

[Ports]

#1 Since Matthews injury, Marner is leafs goal leader (4) and team pts leader (10). Marner shot is not hard but he's accurate. The problem is not his shot, he just don't use it enough and becoming too predictable when he's overthinking because when he overthibking, he always goes for the pass. So like i said, keep it simple and put him on situation to react unstead of overthinking and he will be less predictable. Playing away of Matthews also help because he stop tryong to find Matthews on the ice all game long. Hes doing his own thing.

2- Thornton had 1 year over 25 goal in carreer... Last 4 year marner was producing at a rate of 33 goal/82 game

We are not really at the same place sorry...

3- Leafs best scoring chance on PP had been created by Marner in majority. He could had take more shot but most of the time when he didn't, he created an even better scoring chance. Just too many shot wide of the net, hard to score when you don't even hit the net.

All of Marner’s playoff history may be less of a factor with a new coach and system that forces the Leafs to score from in close around the net and less from the perimeter. I think Marner will adjust and have a break out playoff year. Also, having Knies, McMann and Patches taking bigger roles with their power games can change how the team competes against the heavier teams that have give them trouble in the past.