Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Continued

[Evilhomer]

He was always going to get a big contract from the leafs. All that is happening now is that fans are coming around to wanting him resigned. It's taken less time than I expected.

 

[The Shadow]

He broke up the 2 on 1
And then took it himself to snipe the winner in OT. Nice shot

 

[thusk]

When leafs hired Berube, i said than the guy who will benefit the most of Berube north/south system would be Marner.

Berube system just help Marner to simplify his game. Stop waiting for the perfect play and just goes to the net like he did under babcock (where he had been at his best in playoff)

 

[Racer88]

When leafs hired Berube, i said than the guy who will benefit the most of Berube north/south system would be Marner.

Berube system just help Marner to simplify his game. Stop waiting for the perfect play and just goes to the net like he did under babcock (where he had been at his best in playoff)

I never thought even Berube could straighten out Marners game put it looks like he is having a positive effect on him.
Secondly Marner is way more effective away from Matthews, they should never play on the same line again

 

[DarkKnight]

When leafs hired Berube, i said than the guy who will benefit the most of Berube north/south system would be Marner.

Berube system just help Marner to simplify his game. Stop waiting for the perfect play and just goes to the net like he did under babcock (where he had been at his best in playoff)

I also knew Berube would appreciate Marner's game. It s a great match so far, and he's his horse.

 

[Divine]

He was always going to get a big contract from the leafs. All that is happening now is that fans are coming around to wanting him resigned. It's taken less time than I expected.

Not really.

When you see the cap hit you'll realize that any player at that cap hit would be good.

If we were re-signing him for 8M or under, sign me up. Would the Leafs be a worse team with two 6M players who can each score 20-30 goals and split up the offense?

We need goalscoring not the lowest scoring 12M player in NHL history.

Let's see what Rantanen gets. He's basically a better version of Marner who's physical and has put up 50+ goals... oh and he leads the Avs in playoff scoring nearly every year.

 

[Racer88]

Wtf, can't score 5 on 5, what a bum.

Muffin shot, what a bum.

He is playing like he should be at his price point, let’s hope it keeps up once Matthews comes back.
Hopefully he does not revert back to differing everything to Matthews

 

[Mr_Fun]

I also knew Berube would appreciate Marner's game. It s a great match so far, and he's his horse.

I think Mitch had the misfortune of having a sociopathic coach who he really wasn't inspired to play for and a coach right after who wouldn't keep him in check.

 

[thewave]

He is playing like he should be at his price point, let’s hope it keeps up once Matthews comes back.
Hopefully he does not revert back to differing everything to Matthews

Like to see 10.9m players play like 10.9m players

 

[Racer88]

Like to see 10.9m players play like 10.9m players

That’s all we ask for and to not suck in the playoffs

 

[LeafGrief]

Love to see the guy thriving and playing well for us, but I don’t think points in November are changing anyone’s mind. He’s always money in November.

 

[ORRFForever]

Love to see the guy thriving and playing well for us, but I don’t think points in November are changing anyone’s mind. He’s always money in November.

Sad but true.

 

[DarkKnight]

Welcome to the top 10 in scoring again Mitch.

 

[thusk]

I never thought even Berube could straighten out Marners game put it looks like he is having a positive effect on him.
Secondly Marner is way more effective away from Matthews, they should never play on the same line again

The #1 Marner issu is when he thinking too much. East-West keefe system where the majority of scoring chance was coming off the rush, he was looking too much all the time how he could pass the puck and exemple in 2v1 with JT, he would certainly try to find every way to pass it to tavares... tonight he just keep it simple, he saw an opportunity and he jump on it. Keep it simple, goes to the net and take your chance...

... And chance off the rush is not really Marner strenght, its more Nylander strenght so that why i had more doubt about Nylander under Berube than Marner but it's an other story ( and both doing good job this season)

Marner always had great work ethic, defensive 1st mind and why whatever if it was Babcock, Keefe or Berube... Marner always been #1 player they trust in any kind of situation whatever what. The difference right now is he react to the game unstead or thinking about what he should do. If he can translate it on the playoff, he will be amaizing

 

[Divine]

The #1 Marner issu is when he thinking too much. East-West keefe system where the majority of scoring chance was coming off the rush, he was looking too much all the time how he could pass the puck and exemple in 2v1 with JT, he would certainly try to find every way to pass it to tavares... tonight he just keep it simple, he saw an opportunity and he jump on it. Keep it simple, goes to the net and take your chance...

... And chance off the rush is not really Marner strenght, its more Nylander strenght so that why i had more doubt about Nylander under Berube than Marner but it's an other story ( and both doing good job this season)

Marner always had great work ethic, defensive 1st mind and why whatever if it was Babcock, Keefe or Berube... Marner always been #1 player they trust in any kind of situation whatever what. The difference right now is he react to the game unstead or thinking about what he should do. If he can translate it on the playoff, he will be amaizing

The #1 Marner issue is he doesn't have an NHL shot. When there's no space out there to make passes, he becomes useless.

The #2 Marner issue is his cap hit. We can't afford a player making 12M that is useless out there without space because he never bothered to develop his shot in his entire hockey career. Generally players with Marner's talent put up 40 goals easily. Almost all the good passers can score... except Marner. Marner unfortunately has the Thornton gene of no shot, and we know how that worked out for Thornton in the playoffs - similar stats to Marner.

All the other good passers have scoring ability. That makes their passing game even better because you got to respect the shot. With Marner, teams dare him to shoot. Even Edmonton was giving him the open slot for the shot on the PP tonight and he kept trying to pass it through.

Good teams (playoff teams) will take the 5% chance he beats the goalie clean on a shot over the risk of the cross crease pass for him to find the open man - so they give him space and then block the passing lanes. He develops his shot and he's a way bigger threat, and more in line with his cap hit - like Kucherov, Point, McDavid, Rantanen, Draisaitl, Nylander, Matthews, Aho etc. All of those players can pass AND shoot.

 

[ULF_55]

Repeating myself, but

Hayes: ‘Marner for whatever reason, looks better when he’s not playing with Matthews’​

Hayes: ‘Marner for whatever reason, looks better when he’s not playing with Matthews’ - Video - TSN

Bryan Hayes, Jeff O’Neill and Jamie McLennan discuss the Maple Leafs 3 straight wins without Auston Matthews and why Mitch Marner seems to play better without his longtime linemate.

www.tsn.ca

 

[Leafsfan74]

He is a talented player of course but as with all the core, it is all about the playoffs. Dont mean to burst the bubble after he had a strong game against the Oilers but they arent the Rangers or Florida, they aren't heavy. I have said for years, when the ice disappears, so do the core. Barring a miracle, does anyone want to be a fool for another year? The game is about winning a Cup. Berube has him playing a deeper game than in the past, he is in on the forecheck. His vision stick work and speed are fine, its his will in tight, physical games and his cap hit that is the problem. He isnt alone on this team. Here is hoping he and the team surprise me, I would love to be wrong. I hope he keeps it up, he has looked very confident and assertive lately.

 

[Leafsfan74]

The #1 Marner issue is he doesn't have an NHL shot. When there's no space out there to make passes, he becomes useless.

The #2 Marner issue is his cap hit. We can't afford a player making 12M that is useless out there without space because he never bothered to develop his shot in his entire hockey career. Generally players with Marner's talent put up 40 goals easily. Almost all the good passers can score... except Marner. Marner unfortunately has the Thornton gene of no shot, and we know how that worked out for Thornton in the playoffs - similar stats to Marner.

All the other good passers have scoring ability. That makes their passing game even better because you got to respect the shot. With Marner, teams dare him to shoot. Even Edmonton was giving him the open slot for the shot on the PP tonight and he kept trying to pass it through.

Good teams (playoff teams) will take the 5% chance he beats the goalie clean on a shot over the risk of the cross crease pass for him to find the open man - so they give him space and then block the passing lanes. He develops his shot and he's a way bigger threat, and more in line with his cap hit - like Kucherov, Point, McDavid, Rantanen, Draisaitl, Nylander, Matthews, Aho etc. All of those players can pass AND shoot.

I agree with much of this. I will say about his shot as I have said for a long time, especailly on the PP; just shoot it from the point sometimes. If he can pass as accurelay as he does this means he has an accurate shot too. Blast it once in awhile, or, simply throw.it on net and create a tip in situation, rebound of get the odd seeing eye goal. As long as you have a lane to get the shot through nothing bad even comes from taking such shots on the PP.

 

[thusk]

The #1 Marner issue is he doesn't have an NHL shot. When there's no space out there to make passes, he becomes useless.

The #2 Marner issue is his cap hit. We can't afford a player making 12M that is useless out there without space because he never bothered to develop his shot in his entire hockey career. Generally players with Marner's talent put up 40 goals easily. Almost all the good passers can score... except Marner. Marner unfortunately has the Thornton gene of no shot, and we know how that worked out for Thornton in the playoffs - similar stats to Marner.

All the other good passers have scoring ability. That makes their passing game even better because you got to respect the shot. With Marner, teams dare him to shoot. Even Edmonton was giving him the open slot for the shot on the PP tonight and he kept trying to pass it through.

Good teams (playoff teams) will take the 5% chance he beats the goalie clean on a shot over the risk of the cross crease pass for him to find the open man - so they give him space and then block the passing lanes. He develops his shot and he's a way bigger threat, and more in line with his cap hit - like Kucherov, Point, McDavid, Rantanen, Draisaitl, Nylander, Matthews, Aho etc. All of those players can pass AND shoot.

#1 Since Matthews injury, Marner is leafs goal leader (4) and team pts leader (10). Marner shot is not hard but he's accurate. The problem is not his shot, he just don't use it enough and becoming too predictable when he's overthinking because when he overthibking, he always goes for the pass. So like i said, keep it simple and put him on situation to react unstead of overthinking and he will be less predictable. Playing away of Matthews also help because he stop tryong to find Matthews on the ice all game long. Hes doing his own thing.

2- Thornton had 1 year over 25 goal in carreer... Last 4 year marner was producing at a rate of 33 goal/82 game

We are not really at the same place sorry...

3- Leafs best scoring chance on PP had been created by Marner in majority. He could had take more shot but most of the time when he didn't, he created an even better scoring chance. Just too many shot wide of the net, hard to score when you don't even hit the net.

 

[Divine]

#1 Since Matthews injury, Marner is leafs goal leader (4) and team pts leader (10). Marner shot is not hard but he's accurate. The problem is not his shot, he just don't use it enough and becoming too predictable when he's overthinking because when he overthibking, he always goes for the pass. So like i said, keep it simple and put him on situation to react unstead of overthinking and he will be less predictable. Playing away of Matthews also help because he stop tryong to find Matthews on the ice all game long. Hes doing his own thing.

2- Thornton had 1 year over 25 goal in carreer... Last 4 year marner was producing at a rate of 33 goal/82 game

We are not really at the same place sorry...

3- Leafs best scoring chance on PP had been created by Marner in majority. He could had take more shot but most of the time when he didn't, he created an even better scoring chance. Just too many shot wide of the net, hard to score when you don't even hit the net.

1.) That's because Marner can score easy goals. He's scoring goals on 2 on 1's and rebounds. He can't score goals when there's no space. Why is it in the playoffs his goal scoring disappears? He doesn't even score at a 20 goal pace in the playoffs. He had a good game against Montreal. He scored a 2 on 1 goal tonight in 3v3, another on a 6 on 4 PP. You notice the pattern? Lots of space out there - either due to bad teams, or 3 on 3 hockey. You don't get that in the playoffs.

2.) Marner has scored more than 30 goals twice in his 8 year career. I don't care about his 'pace'. No player in NHL history has made 12M without scoring at least 40 goals on their previous contract contract - this guy barely scores 30.

3.) Yes, Marner is a great passer. So is Kucherov, McDavid, MacKinnon. The difference is, when you pay those guys they can pass AND score 40+ goals for you. Marner can't.

Here's the key point. Marner is a great player - but if you got to pick any player in the league to pay 12M+ to, Marner would be far down that list.

Look at Rantanen, makes less than Marner, is going to be a UFA this offseason also. Scored 50+ goals. Great passer. Physical. Leads the Avs in scoring nearly every playoffs. Guess what? His cap hit is probably going to be lower than Marner's (again). There's the problem with Marner right there. He wants to be one of the top 5 highest paid guys in the league - but every single one of those players can shoot AND pass the puck.

 

[francis246]

1.) That's because Marner can score easy goals. He's scoring goals on 2 on 1's and rebounds. He can't score goals when there's no space. Why is it in the playoffs his goal scoring disappears? He doesn't even score at a 20 goal pace in the playoffs. He had a good game against Montreal. He scored a 2 on 1 goal tonight in 3v3, another on a 6 on 4 PP. You notice the pattern? Lots of space out there - either due to bad teams, or 3 on 3 hockey. You don't get that in the playoffs.

2.) Marner has scored more than 30 goals twice in his 8 year career. I don't care about his 'pace'. No player in NHL history has made 12M without scoring at least 40 goals on their previous contract contract - this guy barely scores 30.

3.) Yes, Marner is a great passer. So is Kucherov, McDavid, MacKinnon. The difference is, when you pay those guys they can pass AND score 40+ goals for you. Marner can't.

Here's the key point. Marner is a great player - but if you got to pick any player in the league to pay 12M+ to, Marner would be far down that list.

Look at Rantanen, makes less than Marner, is going to be a UFA this offseason also. Scored 50+ goals. Great passer. Physical. Leads the Avs in scoring nearly every playoffs. Guess what? His cap hit is probably going to be lower than Marner's (again). There's the problem with Marner right there. He wants to be one of the top 5 highest paid guys in the league - but every single one of those players can shoot AND pass the puck.

I love how you use the 12 million mark as a barometer to talk about the 40 goals. How many players are making 12 million + right now?

In fact go check how many 11 or 10 million players have scored 40. The list is small brother. Panarin I think hit 40 for the first time last year and prior to that he was also barely a 30 goal scorer. Marner has had similar 30 goal seasons like Panarin to be fair.


Let’s look at other high paid forwards who have had less career highs or similar career highs in goals to Marner.

Huberdeau - career high 30 goals twice (10.5 million)
Panarin - career high 42 last year, played a full 82. Prior to that, career high of 32. Didnt score 30 for 3 seasons prior to his 42.
Kopitar - career high of 35
Eichel - career high of 36

People on here milk the 40 goal thing so much. Very few players reach 40 goals. We don’t need Marner to be a 40 goal guy. We need him to drive offense in the playoffs

The issue isn’t even about Marner’s shot. It’s a good shot. The issue is Marner doesn’t shoot enough. And that problem is increased when he plays along side Auston because he is hyper focused on getting Auston the puck. Marner just needs to shoot more, he could be a 35+ goal scorer in his sleep if he did.

 

[Divine]

I love how you use the 12 million mark as a barometer to talk about the 40 goals. How many players are making 12 million + right now?

In fact go check how many 11 or 10 million players have scored 40. The list is small brother. Panarin I think hit 40 for the first time last year and prior to that he was also barely a 30 goal scorer. Marner has had more 30 goal seasons than Panarin to be fair.


Let’s look at other high paid forwards who have had less career highs or similar career highs in goals to Marner.

Huberdeau - career high 30 goals twice (10.5 million)
Panarin - career high 42 last year, played a full 82. Prior to that, career high of 32. Didnt score 30 for 3 seasons prior to his 42.
Kopitar - career high of 35
Eichel - career high of 36

People on here milk the 40 goal thing so much. Very few players reach 40 goals. We don’t need Marner to be a 40 goal guy. We need him to drive offense in the playoffs

I'm not paying Marner 12M+ unless he can score goals himself. You know what happens when Marner gets 12M? The players around him get worse because he's eating most of the cap. The cap isn't infinite - when one player takes up 12M, it means there's less for everyone else. Then you know what's going to happen - you're going to blame the player who's making league minimum for not scoring goals when Marner passes them the puck. If they were talented players, we wouldn't be able to afford them in the first place. Marner would need to turn water to wine to live up to his contract. I blame the 12M guy, not the league min. guy.

Of those contracts you listed - how many of them would you like on your team? Listing a bunch of bad contracts isn't helping your case. The only one of those I would want on my team right now is Panarin... who scored 49 goals last year. No idea why you think Panarin scored 42 last year, although I think we'd both take that from Marner.

 

[francis246]

I'm not paying Marner 12M+ unless he can score goals himself. You know what happens when Marner gets 12M? The players around him get worse because he's eating most of the cap. The cap isn't infinite - when one player takes up 12M, it means there's less for everyone else.

Of those contracts you listed - how many of them would you like on your team? Listing a bunch of bad contracts isn't helping your case.

I would take Marner over all the players I listed to be honest. I really would. I also think the cap thing is over exaggerated at this point. It was a big issue when the cap was flat. But the cap is increasing, looking at the projected cap numbers through 2027. Three players at 11 mill will not hurt us. Especially because I do not believe there is any combination of UFA’s we could get for 12 million that would make us better compared to just keeping Marner. Unless you can get Rantanen to come here. If you could do that I’d let Marner walk and bring in Rantanen in a heart beat. But the chances of that are slim.

The time to reallocate his money was through a trade. That option is gone. Now we’ve got to turn our attention to drafting and developing well. Name me one Stanley Cup winning team that has let one of their star players walk to UFA, rebuilt through UFA and won a Stanley cup in the cap era. The answer is no team has done that. Teams have traded their stars and won.

 

[Divine]

I would take Marner over all the players I listed to be honest. I really would. I also think the cap thing is over exaggerated at this point. It was a big issue when the cap was flat. But the cap is increasing, looking at the projected cap numbers through 2027. Three players at 11 mill will not hurt us. Especially because I do not believe there is any combination of UFA’s we could get for 12 million that would make us better compared to just keeping Marner. Unless you can get Rantanen to come here. If you could do that I’d let Marner walk and bring in Rantanen in a heart beat. But the chances of that are slim.

The time to reallocate his money was through a trade. That option is gone. Now we’ve got to turn our attention to drafting and developing well. Name me one Stanley Cup winning team that has let one of their star players walk to UFA, rebuilt through UFA and won a Stanley cup in the cap era. The answer is no team has done that. Teams have traded their stars and won.

That's not the question I asked. I asked how many of those contracts you want on your team? If you don't want a single contract on your team - then how is that an argument for Marner.

I would not take Marner over Panarin. Panarin is a better passer and goalscorer than Marner. The rest of them are whatever. Maybe Eichel at 10M over Marner at 12M.. but I'd prefer neither.

Marner isn't our 'star'. We got two stars already. Marner is one of 4 pieces we currently have. You can find value in players that are cheaper. Look of UFA signing's in the 5M range that worked out well - Hyman, Strome, Patrick Kane, etc. Just use the money wisely, don't go overpaying for a Mikheyev and you're okay.

If we let both Marner and Tavares walk (or take a massive discount) we can rebuild our entire team. Assuming both Marner and Tavares walk, and Marner wanted 12M+ - that's 23M in cap space. You can sign four 5M dollar players for that amount - or take on contracts across the league without retention. That would give us way more depth than Marner/Tavares.

Both Matthews and Nylander are fine without Marner. Marner is a great player, but he's not worth his contract. He held out for one of the highest RFA contracts of all time his last contract and I expect him to want one of the highest UFA contracts of all time on his next one. He's not worth the cost. Tampa just walked away from their captain who won them 2 Cups and they didn't miss a step - they replaced him with Guentzel - was that a downgrade or upgrade?

 

[thewave]

That's not the question I asked. I asked how many of those contracts you want on your team? If you don't want a single contract on your team - then how is that an argument for Marner.

I would not take Marner over Panarin. Panarin is a better passer and goalscorer than Marner. The rest of them are whatever. Maybe Eichel at 10M over Marner at 12M.. but I'd prefer neither.

Marner isn't our 'star'. We got two stars already. Marner is one of 4 pieces we currently have. You can find value in players that are cheaper. Look of UFA signing's in the 5M range that worked out well - Hyman, Strome, Patrick Kane, etc. Just use the money wisely, don't go overpaying for a Mikheyev and you're okay.

If we let both Marner and Tavares walk (or take a massive discount) we can rebuild our entire team. Assuming both Marner and Tavares walk, and Marner wanted 12M+ - that's 33M in cap space. You can sign six 5M dollar players for that amount - or take on contracts across the league without retention. That would give us way more depth than Marner alone.

Both Matthews and Nylander are fine without Marner. Marner is a great player, but he's not worth his contract. He held out for one of the highest RFA contracts of all time his last contract and I expect him to want one of the highest UFA contracts of all time on his next won. He's not worth the cost. Tampa just walked away from their captain who won them 2 Cups and they didn't miss a step - they replaced him with Guentzel - was that a downgrade or upgrade?

People here get married to names other than The Leafs. Management should hold out until after the POs before doing a deal. They have to have playoff success