Mistakes the Jets Still Regret

[Mortimer Snerd]

Hard to believe the Jets were so anxious to sign Pavy that they let that little incident (not informing the Jets of his DUI) slip between the cracks.

Hard to believe anybody thinks that incident was ever that significant.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Thought this was handled very well by Chevy. The only way to have settled the situation quicker was to trade him for a loss which would have been a worse outcome. Would also have opened the door for future power plays by RFA's. Getting Trouba on a fair bridge and playing hockey was a key to maintaining and increasing Trouba's value. Trouba did his part and proved himself to be a top pairing d-man. If nothing else this has greatly upped his trade value if he still wants out.

Pretty much as well as could be.

It is/was a ****** situation. How does anyone think Chevy could have done better?

 

[Vancouver BC]

Biggest of all.

Agree on that!!

 

[Halfy]

Trading basically two firsts in 2016 to draft a dman whose ceiling is bottom pair defender.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Trading basically two firsts in 2016 to draft a dman whose ceiling is bottom pair defender.

I'm on your side but there is no need to exaggerate. If you are saying that 36 is almost a 1st then 22 is almost a 2nd. What was traded was a 1st + a 2nd - a 3rd.

 

[Channelcat]

Trading basically two firsts in 2016 to draft a dman whose ceiling is bottom pair defender.

Pretty much a non event compared to the others listed.

 

[Gm0ney]

• I have nothing against the Buff signing. I believe he rebounds next year, and the duration of the contract is right on the money.
• Burmi was never going to be a Frolik replacement, and if he was mentioned as such by Jets staff/mgmt it was just to placate the loss of Frolik. He was, however, essentially a free signing which could have resulted in having better depth. Low risk/high reward. My only issue is that the team waiting too long in that he was given away on waivers instead of trying to get a return in a trade.
• Signing a player out of college who can play on the fourth line/sit in the press box/be a good player for the AHL team and getting his RFA rights is not a mistake. The mistake was playing him too much and not sending him down earlier.
• Matthias is good depth and can be traded next year for a decent return if the Jets don't make the playoffs again (and covers XD requirements). Nothing wrong here either.

This part underlined, though. I feel there was a lot of turnover after the 2014-15 playoff run season. I'm super curious into looking more into this...

The Jets hired Flaherty as their pro goalie coach in 2011 and sent Moose goalie coach Rick St. Croix to the Ice Caps in St. John's for 2011-12. St. Croix then got hired by Toronto after that season. There was no developmental goalie coach in St. John's for 2012-13 (or maybe Flaherty was filling in since the NHL was locked out until January?). The Moose hired Dusty Imoo for 2013-14 and 14-15. St. Croix was fired in Toronto after 2014-15 and came back to the Moose for 2015-16.

I'm not sure if they let Imoo go because they were getting St. Croix back or if they were letting him go anyway. Maybe he got hired away by LA to be their developmental goalie coach (Imoo lives in BC, so it would be more convenient).

Anyway, while talking about mistakes, I wonder if St. Croix would've been any better for Pavelec than Flaherty was? Not sure why every other humpty dump in the in Moose org got promoted in 2011 except for St. Croix...

 

[Scheifele55]

"Drafting Jimmy Mann"
In hindsight the team could have taken Michel Goulet or Kevin Lowe. They also could have taken Blake Wesley, Mike Perovich or Erral Rausse and ending up in the same position with Wesley or worse with Perovich who didn't play a game in the NHL and Rausse who played 31 games.

"Trading Dave Babych for Ray Neufeld"
This trade is a definite head scratcher. At the time the Winnipeg Jets had former Norris Trophy winner Randy Carlyle, sophmore Dave Ellett, Mario Marois who carried the same offense as Babych for 2 years then declined, Tim Watters, and 1st round selection Bobby Dollas (14th overall) who you forgot to add here was acquired in a trade for Dave Christian!

"Drafting Andrew McBain"
This is another hindsight draft pick which as part of the Winnipeg Jets wasn't THAT bad! His 1st 4 years were garbage. The 1st 3 years for Cam Neely (taken 1 pick later) were not much better. In McBain's 5th season he doubled his 1st 4 years for goal output with 32 goals then followed it up with 37 goals and 40 assists whereas that same season Cam Neely scored 37 goals and 38 assists. THEN he was dealt to Pittsburgh. Winnipeg could have easily dealt Cam Neely that same day had they taken him over McBain.

"Steve Penny Trade"
I get what you are trying to point out here. We dealt Bryan Hayward for Steve Penny. Bryan Hayward won his William Jennings trophies for backing up Patrick Roy. But really, he won the award for playing for a Montreal Canadiens club that was ridiculously DEFENSIVELY oriented! Bryan Hayward's GAA dropped by 2 goals a game upon joining the Canadiens. Upon leaving the team and playing for the San Jose Sharks his GAA jumped by 2 goals a game. In the year before Patrick Roy had his rookie year and playoff run, Steve Penny was a 3.08 GAA goalie with almost identical save % of Bryan Hayward who was a higher GAA. Part of that trade was the acquisition of the rights to Jan Ingman who was a 1981 1st round selection and never came to North America. I don't know anything about Ingman besides the stats I can see but for the Montreal Canadiens to use their 1st round selection on a Swedish player which was unheard of meant he had some potential.

"Drafting Ryan Stewart"
The 1985 Entry Draft ended up being one of if not the worst NHL draft of the 1980's! Ulf Dahlen and Derek King were the ONLY players taken in the 1st round that year to reach 600 points! The 1st round is filled with fringe NHL'ers who made little impact in the league. This selection isn't a mistake they regret! Have a look at the players taken that year and explain to me how passing on Joe Nieuwendyk the only player to get to 700 points (1126) was something the team regret! Hell 18 other teams regret their selection with the exception of Calgary and maybe New York Rangers who took Mike Richter.

"Resigning Ondrej Pavelec"
In hindsight this was a bad move. But what were their options? He came off a strong WHC and the team had hoped he would continue that play. Who were the other options within the system? There were none!

"Drafting Lukas Sutter"
25% of 2nd rounders make the NHL. 22 out of 30 players have 7 or less games under their belt! Jankowski, Subban, Schmaltz and Samuelsson still haven't reached 10 games and they were 1st round picks. The fact he regressed so much is a shame, however, he wasn't a 1st round pick which you could make a case for being a "regret"

"Trading for Eric Fehr"
I disagree. Dannick Paquette's career is in the ECHL and Thomas DiPauli has 21 AHL games under his belt. The team needed scoring depth and even this his scoring touch soured with the Jets, he was a low risk trade.

"Giving Kris Draper Away for a $1"
I feel there is more to this story than meets the eye. Are there other examples of players being traded for $1?" I wonder if the Winnipeg Jets made this move as a favor to the Detroit Red Wings who were owed future considerations in a previous trade and this deal was made to basically fulfill that.

"Paul Ysebaert"
Did this player make the list because we dealt Aaron Ward our 5th overall selection for him? At the time he was previously a 35 then 34 goal scorer for the Red Wings which had him at the scoring touch level of a 1st liner on the team even though they had players like Sheppard, Fedorov, Yzerman, Carson.

TIDBIT: in 1991-92 2 years before joining the Jets he became the 1st Detroit Red Wing EVER to win the +/- award!

Thanks in advance for any help.[/QUOTE]

Now my turn for moves the Winnipeg Jets regret:

Starting in 1979: Using their priority selection on Scott Campbell instead of Kent Nilsson. A line of Lukowich-Hawerchuk-Nilsson could have been quite potent. Unfortunately Scott Campbell suffered from chronic asthma compounded by our climate led to his retirement.

The classic myth/story of the Winnipeg Jets not paying $700,000 to acquire Wayne Gretzky. The most common story involved backgammon, however, he could have been acquired had Winnipeg ponied up more $$ to pay Nelson Skalbania.

Trading Brian Mullen at 25 years old for a 3rd and 5th round pick. He was a career 25 goal scorer.

Trading Dave Christian at 23 years old for a 1st round selection. Dave Christian as a 21 year old rookie tallied 71 points. It made no sense at the time to deal a 23 year old 70 point a year player on a team that would be competitively shortly. It is compounded by the fact that Bobby Dollas who they selected may have played a part in them trading Dave Babych for Ray Neufeld.

Drafting Sergei Bautin. The muffled draft selection was the 1st sign of this head scratcher. In 1992 TSN was broadcasting the draft and couldn't make out the selection. Doug McKenzie did a bit of research and explained that the Winnipeg Jets reached on their selection by taking... Sergei Brylin. If only they really did make that selection. The true intent was for Winnipeg to select 25 year old Russian defenseman Sergei Bautin. Someone please explain to me how a 25 year old was taken in an Entry draft? Isn't this a draft for 18 year olds? Couldn't they just sign him? He played that year for the Winnipeg Jets so he wasn't under some contract that restricted his rights. Atleast the team was able to pawn him off to Detroit in a trade with Bob Essensa to acquire Tim Cheveldaye and Dallas Drake.

Finally, trading Teemu Selanne to Anaheim. He was by far the best player on the team and would be a great selling feature for the Phoenix Coyotes. It was reported that the new owners of the team wanted to shed his salary for their move so the team dealt him to Anaheim for early 1st round selections Chad Kilger and Oleg Tverdovsky. Chad Kilger was a huge bust and Oleg Tverdovsky developed into a very good defenseman but definitely not in the same universe as Teemu Selanne.

I just noticed that you got your list from the Winnipeg Jets Memorial Site.

 

[Scheifele55]

Version 2.0 Regretful decisions. This franchise in Winnipeg is so young that regretful decisions are difficult due to draft picks still pretty much in limbo and their 1st round picks overachieving:

Not trading Kyle Wellwood or Nik Antropov at the 2012 trade deadline. Nik Antropov is a bigger reach than Kyle Wellwood. The reason I state both was because they both started the season very strong, especially Wellwood and after the trade deadline their point preduction was abysmal. At the time I was hopeful that Kevin Cheveldayoff would deal both of them for assets as they were in a sell high situation. Unfortunately, no move was made and their second season in Winnipeg was rotten and they departed. Atleast with Johnny Oduya who they dealt they acquired draft picks.

Not dealing Ron Hainsey at the 2013 trade deadline.
He was slated to become a UFA at the end of the year and even though he had a big contract I was hopeful the team would move him to a playoff team for some assets. The team never bothered to re-sign him and he departed for nothing.

Signing Olli Jokinen
His play was awful, especially his 1st year and ended up being a waste of 8 million dollars. His value was a regret but I understand that signing UFA's to play for the Winnipeg Jets so far in 2.0 has been a case of overpaying as we did the same with Perreault.

Not re-signing Frolik
A solid 2 way player the Winnipeg Jets could use. Our PK is subpar and he was the leader while a member of the team. His 4.2M cap hit is something the team could have handled.

 

[Scheifele55]

If the Thrashers had drafted better in those last 3 years we would not likely have the same forwards we have now. We certainly would not have Armia, Myers, Lemieux, Roslovic - or Boston's 5th.

The theory of the Thrashers drafting better players the last 3 years in my opinion isn't true but a case of Atlanta rushing all their 1st rounders to the NHL. Zach Bogosian played 128 NHL games by the time Alex Pietrangelo played 17! St Louis allowed him to develop in juniors which is the same formula Cheveldayoff has used. OEL didn't play until 19 and Schenn didn't play regularly until 20. Kane was rushed into the NHL. Burmistrov was rushed into the NHL in 2010-11 whereas Granlund taken after him didn't play until 20 and Fowler didn't play until 19. I am sorry but regretting not taking Tarasenko who was taken at #16 whereas we had #8 holds no weight. That is just a hindsight situation. Teams took Dylan McIlrath, Jack Campbell, Brandon Gormley, and Derek Forbort before Tarasenko was taken and Burmistrov is much better than all of those 4 players (not Tarasenko).

 

[Scheifele55]

The #1 mistake the Jets (and their fans) regret:

Not listening to Shenkarow and the various reports and going ahead to build a new arena in the early 1990s, thus preventing the Jets from having to leave town in the first place.

The Winnipeg Jets were losing 20-25 million when they left town. A new arena wasn't going to generate an extra $20-25 million in revenue. Gate receipts in 2015 was 45 million and in the early 1990's Winnipeggers had a hard time paying $22 for the average ticket let alone my speculation of tickets being about $80-$100 to break even when you account for ticket giveaways to players, community clubs. Also, the Winnipeg Jets (1979-96) had the worst fan support of all the Canadian cities. People can make excuses (sight lines, poor performance, etc.) but back then you could go to a Jets game for under $10 courtesy of 7-11. Back then there was no TV revenue like it is today. It was a "treat" to watch a Jets game on CKY or CBC on Saturday night.

 

[Scheifele55]

of course it is always easy to look back and criticize.

"4. Mike smith - bautin pick and running ducky out of town is just the start of the list- yes he did some good things but had some major blunders."

mike smith in my opinion did a better job than john furguson. In 1989 he took stu barnes who he did foolishly give up on. There was a lot of busts in that draft. In the top 9, 6 players had mediocre careers. That year he also took kris draper who like i said in another post may have been dealt to complete a previous deal with detroit involving future considerations. Many times teams didn't announce who the future considerations actually ended up being. He also took evgeny davydov late in the draft. The following year, i don't know the story about him running hawerchuk out of winnipeg but the deal he made got us phil housley and keith tkachuk which shouldn't be a regret. That year he did select alexei zhamnov. In 1992 he screwed up taking bautin which was embarrassing, however he also did take boris mironov shortly after 27th overall and nikolai khabibulin. In 1993 his russian experiment failed with the teams worst draft picks ever in my opinion. I think another site documented this.

10. Elynuik for john druce. In 5 seasons with the jets elynuik had 20+ goals 3 times and 30+ goals twice. Druce scored a whopping 6 goals in a jets uniform.

John druce stayed with the team for 1 year then moved on. If you look at the careers from that trade on, the deal was lopsided the following year then both players careers fell apart, elyniuks more than druce. John druce if you recall had that stupid 1989-90 playoffs where he scored 14 goals in 15 games.

"13. Giving up on stu barnes and trading him for randy gilhen. Barnes went on to play 1136 nhl games totalling 597 points and playing in two cup finals."

i would agree this deal stunk but possesses some hindsight. Stu barnes was 23 at the time of the deal and the jets actually didn't rush him into the nhl as his 1st year with the team he turned 21. He outplayed his junior career, and spent 2 full seasons in the ahl. This is the same stu barnes who at 22 scored 22 points whereas teemu selanne that same year as a 22 year old scored 132 points. Stu barnes by 1993-94 i guarantee would have been touted as a "bust" on this site had the internet been what it is today.

"14. Bob murdoch's playoff goalie rotation"
definitely a stupid move. Bob essensa was in my opinion the best goalie the winnipeg jets have ever had. Some argue khabibulin but essensa was #3 in vezina voting in 1991-92.

15. The hype surrounding paul and perry pooley.
You are very bitter about this free agent signing back in the early-mid 1980's. I saw you made another post about them being all hype and no show. I never even heard of them. I am sure there is no regret in taking a chance on a college player who almost got 100 points.

16. Losing hedberg and nilson to the rangers
sure they regret losing them. They could have signed them for 1 more year and then lost them in the expansion draft or used priority picks on them and then in hindsight we would be talking about not keeping morris lukowich. They both weren't even point a game players. In hindsight keeping lukowich would have worked out better than nilsson or hedberg.

17. Pavelec contract
like i said in another post, he got this contract based on his whc performance and the team having no options had he left.

18. Frolik over stafford
hindsight decision. I do like frolik though but i was of the same opinion of drew stafford. I felt he could have scored 30 goals a year as a jet.

19. Claude noel and wade flaherty
the team was mediocre, it resulted in telegin and burmistrov leaving for russia. Who knows how bad flaherty really is when you consider how bad pavelec has always been.

20. Jets affinity for face punchers
i don't recall the winnipeg jets having a reputation for liking face punchers. Keeping thorburn and stuart? Trading olczyk for king and domi?

"honourable mention - logan stanley pick - i really hope this pic/trade up - works out but will remain a work in progress for sometime. "

the player was taken 1 year ago. How the heck could you even make any mention of a 6'7" lhd who in his draft year was touted as one of the most improved players in the OHL. The guy had a strong progression year this past season and is developing exactly like the organization had projected. He wasn't nik ehlers off the board, he wasn't lukas sutter regression, and he wasn't even luke green slow progression.

I replied in the quote.

 

[Scheifele55]

[*]Not having a pick in the first two rounds of the 2007 draft (they traded for Keith Tkachuk?)

The Keith Tkachuk trade ended up being:

Keith Tkachuk 18 games 7 goals 8 assists - eliminated in 4

in exchange for

Glen Metropolit
2007 1st rounder (Mikael Backlund)
2008 2nd rounder
2007 3rd rounder

You could have added a 2008 1st rounder had they not traded Tkachuk back to St Louis at seasons end.

Atlanta history shouldn't be a part of this because then you have to consider many years back the impact like dealing Heatley for Hossa then dealing Hossa for draft picks.

I can though tell you something the Winnipeg Jets DO NOT regret. Firing Rick Dudley and signing Kevin Cheveldayoff. Imagine a Rick Dudley rushing all of our 1st round picks to the NHL, not taking Trouba because he would return to school and probably taking a Couturier over Scheifele.

 

[Scheifele55]

"drafting Bautin 17th in the first round in 92 (Martin Straka, Valeri Bure and Boris Mironov were selected shortly after)"

The Winnipeg Jets took Boris Mironov. Martin Straka was taken as a 20 year old with risk that he wouldn't leave the Czech republic to play in North America. He also didn't hit his stride until 1998-99. Valeri Bure similarly didn't really hit his stride until 1998-99 and the following year was his best year. Him being taken 16 picks after Bautin is simply a hindsight decision. 15 other teams passed on Bure after Bautin was taken. In hindsight Winnipeg should have taken Nathan Dempsey who went in the 11th round. His NHL career was also better than Sergei Bautin.

 

[Halfy]

I'm on your side but there is no need to exaggerate. If you are saying that 36 is almost a 1st then 22 is almost a 2nd. What was traded was a 1st + a 2nd - a 3rd.

or you can look at it as 22 and 36 for 18 and 79.

looking at it the toddler way:
22+36 = 58
18+79 = 97
(obviously not a great way to look at it but it illustrates a point)

Bad value trade. Bad value pick. Theres a huge difference between the player you'd get at 36 compared to 79 while the difference between 18 and 22 is not very big.

 

[Jets4Life]

Hard to believe anybody thinks that incident was ever that significant.

Do you work in any type of job where you are in the public eye, or any kind of job where driving a vehicle is important? As serious as it was, it was never the fact that Pavelec got caught driving drunk that was the problem. It was the fact that he intentionally hid this fact from the Jets, before signing his big contract. I guarantee every contract in the NHL stipulates that players can be suspended or even have their contract declared null and void, if the player does something (especially criminal), that goes against the best interests of True North or any other organization. This is one of the main reasons I never cared for Pavelec as a person, and I am glad the Jets are rid of him. It's the way he conducted himself in Winnipeg as a player. Constantly pouting when Helle or Hutch were on a roll and he was riding the pine, glaring at his defensemen if he let in a bad goal. Just like the DUI, it gives the average person a bad impression of him.

If the Jets had realized that the contract they offered Pavelec was a mistake, they could have moved to have it declared null and void, and released him. It's happened before, and it will happen again in the NHL. Many of us have no love for Pavelec due to these circumstances. Maybe you think hiding a DUI (or any other criminal charge for that matter), when negotiating a contract with your employer is no big deal, but you are in the minority. Most of us I'm sure, think it is an underhanded and slimy thing to do. It can be argued that the only reason True North overlooked this, is Winnipeg is dead last when it comes to where Free Agents want to play. In other words, beggars can't be choosers.

 

[Jets4Life]

Trading basically two firsts in 2016 to draft a dman whose ceiling is bottom pair defender.

Too early to pass judgement on. For all we know, Stanley could conceivably a future top defenseman for the Jets in three years.

 

[Jets4Life]

I can though tell you something the Winnipeg Jets DO NOT regret. Firing Rick Dudley and signing Kevin Cheveldayoff. Imagine a Rick Dudley rushing all of our 1st round picks to the NHL, not taking Trouba because he would return to school and probably taking a Couturier over Scheifele.

To be fair to Dudley, that seemed to be the overall consensus between 2011-13. At the time, many were critical of Chevy and stated Couturier would have been a better pick.

 

[Halfy]

Too early to pass judgement on. For all we know, Stanley could conceivably a future top defenseman for the Jets in three years.

he could become the greatest defenceman of all time and at the time, it would still be a bad pick. Bad value, given what we know now and at the time.

 

[Jets4Life]

"Drafting Lukas Sutter"
25% of 2nd rounders make the NHL. 22 out of 30 players have 7 or less games under their belt! Jankowski, Subban, Schmaltz and Samuelsson still haven't reached 10 games and they were 1st round picks. The fact he regressed so much is a shame, however, he wasn't a 1st round pick which you could make a case for being a "regret"

I guarantee that Lukas Sutter was drafted more than anything due to name recognition. The Sutters have a really good reputaion in Western Canada, and it's more than likely the Jets rolled the dice, banking on him living up to the DNA in his blood. One good WHL season hardly justifies selecting Sutter in the 2nd round, especially considering most scouts had him going 3rd round tops.

 

[Jets4Life]

he could become the greatest defenceman of all time and at the time, it would still be a bad pick. Bad value, given what we know now and at the time.

If he becomes the greatest defenseman of all-time, it would be a great pick, not a bad pick.

 

[Evil Little]

If he becomes the greatest defenseman of all-time, it would be a great pick, not a bad pick.

I'm not sure you're aware of this, but Garret made some charts.

 

[Whileee]

or you can look at it as 22 and 36 for 18 and 79.

looking at it the toddler way:
22+36 = 58
18+79 = 97
(obviously not a great way to look at it but it illustrates a point)

Bad value trade. Bad value pick. Theres a huge difference between the player you'd get at 36 compared to 79 while the difference between 18 and 22 is not very big.

#newmath...

Actually, you're wrong based on previous analyses. On average, the difference between #22 and #18 is almost the same as between #36 and #79.

There are actually evidence based value charts for picks, and the value of the picks traded was almost the same as the value of the picks acquired (about 1% different). In fact, the Yotes trade up to get Chychrun was lopsided in favour of the Wings based purely on pick value.

The issue was who the Jets selected, not the difference in pick values.

 

[Halfy]

#newmath...

Actually, you're wrong based on previous analyses. On average, the difference between #22 and #18 is almost the same as between #36 and #79.

There are actually evidence based value charts for picks, and the value of the picks traded was almost the same as the value of the picks acquired (about 1% different). In fact, the Yotes trade up to get Chychrun was lopsided in favour of the Wings based purely on pick value.

The issue was who the Jets selected, not the difference in pick values.

Ok. Whatever. Still a bad pick and still dumb to trade up to make it.

 

[Halfy]

Can you elaborate, please.

In all the data available to us now and at the time of the draft, the pick was not a good one, yet here you are defending the pick. Call it as it is, a bad pick by our GM and scouting staff.