Miscellaneous NHL Discussion XCV: Second Round

[MacDonald4MVP]

Dubas has tried everything at this point except changing the core. He's brought in veteran depth players, he's added grit to the lineup, he's changed goalies, but the core stayed the same.

If he gets another chance, which he shouldn't, firing the coach and trading core players is all he can do at this point.

Has to resign Matthews. Thats the priority and if he doesn't then they should can him no matter what.

 

[deadhead]

I love how the synopsis of page 29 goes: “I was right about him who he is and the Flyers don’t have any use for him. The Flyers gave up significant assets to get rid of and replace him but that doesn’t matter, already happened. We don’t need him because his expensive replacements are more talented, talented doesn’t mean better but unfortunately talented and brain dead. So that is why we don’t need Gostisbehere”

My point had nothing to do with the moves involving Ghost, it's simply that my evaluation, which got pooh pooh'd by those convinced Ghost was a top 4 D-man, proved correct. He's the 5th D-man and power play specialist, and was traded at the TDL for a 2025 3rd, less than Braun garnered two years ago.

Doesn't mean Ghost is a "bad" player, just a role player, and wasn't a great loss to a rebuilding team that needs young starters, not a 29 year old specialist.

The real problem wasn't losing Ghost, or even overpaying for Risto, it was the mindset that the team could "aggressively reload," so it spent assets to clear cap room to add a player who couldn't move the needle. Even if Risto was a legitimate top 4 RHD, it wouldn't have made the team much better. TDA was just another reflection of the bill of goods sold to Scott by Barber, that the team could remain competitive while getting younger - so no painful decisions had to be made.

 

[kudymen]

My point had nothing to do with the moves involving Ghost, it's simply that my evaluation, which got pooh pooh'd by those convinced Ghost was a top 4 D-man, proved correct. He's the 5th D-man and power play specialist, and was traded at the TDL for a 2025 3rd, less than Braun garnered two years ago.

Doesn't mean Ghost is a "bad" player, just a role player, and wasn't a great loss to a rebuilding team that needs young starters, not a 29 year old specialist.

The real problem wasn't losing Ghost, or even overpaying for Risto, it was the mindset that the team could "aggressively reload," so it spent assets to clear cap room to add a player who couldn't move the needle. Even if Risto was a legitimate top 4 RHD, it wouldn't have made the team much better. TDA was just another reflection of the bill of goods sold to Scott by Barber, that the team could remain competitive while getting younger - so no painful decisions had to be made.

And my point of the synopsis was that saying “we don’t need him because we have a more talented player which doesn’t mean said player is better but he is also brain dead” is hilarious - and the costs can be left out if you will and it still remains hilarious.

 

[TCTC]

Has to resign Matthews. Thats the priority and if he doesn't then they should can him no matter what.

The easy move would be to just trade Nylander. He had a career year and of all their core players he's probably the most replaceable. But would that be enough?

Matthews and Marner's playoff records aren't terrible, but to me they never look like they're dominating a game. They never look like they're desperate to make things happen like Giroux in his prime or all the other great players that eventually carry their team to a Stanley Cup final.

Some players just don't rise to the occasion, no matter how talented they are.

 

[deadhead]

And my point of the synopsis was that saying “we don’t need him because we have a more talented player which doesn’t mean said player is better but he is also brain dead” is hilarious - and the costs can be left out if you will and it still remains hilarious.

We didn't "need" Ghost for the same reason we didn't need TDA, b/c neither was going to be around in a couple years.
Had we kept Ghost and not traded for TDA, we would have moved him at the TDL b/c no point extending him.
Note that TDA played much better in the second half in the "sheltered" 3rd pair/PP specialist role with Seeler.

Role players are luxury items for rebuilding (or teams that should be rebuilding) teams.

 

[deadhead]

The easy move would be to just trade Nylander. He had a career year and of all their core players he's probably the most replaceable. But would that be enough?

Matthews and Marner's playoff records aren't terrible, but to me they never look like they're dominating a game. They never look like they're desperate to make things happen like Giroux in his prime or all the other great players that eventually carry their team to a Stanley Cup final.

Some players just don't rise to the occasion, no matter how talented they are.

I'd dump JT and Nylander, build around Matthew - Marner - ROR and get some gritty scorers and forecheckers and change the mindset of the team.
Toronto seems to feel that they're more talented, so they just have to show up and skate and the outcome is a foregone conclusion.
Got the same vibe from the Devils.
Of course, a hot goalie helps. Zito's GM IQ went up 20 points b/c Bob finally is playing in the playoffs like a $10M goalie.

Playoff hockey is different, talent matters but it's a more physical grind, mentally intense game.
The difference with TB and Colorado the last few seasons was they had talent, but they also played an intense pressure game, they didn't wait around for a star to score.

 

[kudymen]

Had we kept Ghost and not traded for TDA, we would have moved him at the TDL b/c no point extending him.

Let me say that using your logic where what we gave up doesn’t matter / water under the bridge, this point in fantasy (what would happen if) also doesn’t matter and we are at the point where we in your words have a player who is not better, but is more talented and brain dead.

Ability to put self in such position, now THAT sounds like luxury



This is not a significant hole to die for. But it’s a laughable one.

 

[deadhead]

Let me say that using your logic where what we gave up doesn’t matter, this point in fantasy (what would happen if) also doesn’t matter and we are at the point where we in your words have a player who is not better, but is more talented and brain dead.
Putting self in such position, now THAT sounds like luxury

No, my logic says a bad strategy lead to bad results.
But I can't get excited about losing a 29 year old 3rd pair D-man, this team has far bigger problems.
Ghost is in a great situation for him, b/c he's not asked to do too much.
One of the values of depth is being able to use role players to their best advantage.

 

[kudymen]

No, my logic says a bad strategy lead to bad results.
But I can't get excited about losing a 29 year old 3rd pair D-man, this team has far bigger problems.
Ghost is in a great situation for him, b/c he's not asked to do too much.
One of the values of depth is being able to use role players to their best advantage.

Having bigger problems doesn’t excuse creating minor ones willingly. That’s how they ended up where they are and it has nothing to do with said player himself. That’s been the point for years. You know it. You just ignore it and pretend people simply talk about Gostisbehere instead of horrendous asset management - because it’s easier. Dishonest but easy.


Btw thanks for admitting Chuck Fletcher had bad strategy. Sounds like a mistake.

 

[Beef Invictus]

My point had nothing to do with the moves involving Ghost, it's simply that my evaluation, which got pooh pooh'd by those convinced Ghost was a top 4 D-man, proved correct. He's the 5th D-man and power play specialist, and was traded at the TDL for a 2025 3rd, less than Braun garnered two years ago.

Doesn't mean Ghost is a "bad" player, just a role player, and wasn't a great loss to a rebuilding team that needs young starters, not a 29 year old specialist.

The real problem wasn't losing Ghost, or even overpaying for Risto, it was the mindset that the team could "aggressively reload," so it spent assets to clear cap room to add a player who couldn't move the needle. Even if Risto was a legitimate top 4 RHD, it wouldn't have made the team much better. TDA was just another reflection of the bill of goods sold to Scott by Barber, that the team could remain competitive while getting younger - so no painful decisions had to be made.

No it wasn't.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The easy move would be to just trade Nylander. He had a career year and of all their core players he's probably the most replaceable. But would that be enough?

Matthews and Marner's playoff records aren't terrible, but to me they never look like they're dominating a game. They never look like they're desperate to make things happen like Giroux in his prime or all the other great players that eventually carry their team to a Stanley Cup final.

Some players just don't rise to the occasion, no matter how talented they are.

That was Stamkos, until suddenly he rose to the occasion.

Pittsburgh, Washington, and TB have all shown that sticking with a core pays off if you can build around it

 

[TCTC]

I'd dump JT and Nylander, build around Matthew - Marner - ROR and get some gritty scorers and forecheckers and change the mindset of the team.
Toronto seems to feel that they're more talented, so they just have to show up and skate and the outcome is a foregone conclusion.
Got the same vibe from the Devils.
Of course, a hot goalie helps. Zito's GM IQ went up 20 points b/c Bob finally is playing in the playoffs like a $10M goalie.

Playoff hockey is different, talent matters but it's a more physical grind, mentally intense game.
The difference with TB and Colorado the last few seasons was they had talent, but they also played an intense pressure game, they didn't wait around for a star to score.

You don't get a haul for 32 year old Tavares with a NMC and you don't trade a 80 point player just to get rid of him.

Maybe their problem is that they don't have that one franchise player, so nobody really feels responsible.

 

[TCTC]

That was Stamkos, until suddenly he rose to the occasion.

Pittsburgh, Washington, and TB have all shown that sticking with a core pays off if you can build around it

Those teams at least had some success pretty early. Final appearances and all that. Something to build on.

One second round appearance just to get knocked out in 5 games is embarrassing.

 

[kudymen]

Anyway. There is something really beautiful about how smug the Leafs fans always are, and how this is finally the year they moved from first round, only to see those traditionalists get f***ed by expansion team from the southeast of south. Lol

 

[deadhead]

Having bigger problems doesn’t excuse creating minor ones willingly. That’s how they ended up where they are and it has nothing to do with said player himself. That’s been the point for years. You know it. You just ignore it and pretend people simply talk about Gostisbehere instead of horrendous asset management - because it’s easier. Dishonest but easy.


Btw thanks for admitting Chuck Fletcher had bad strategy. Sounds like a mistake.

Fletcher screwed up, so did Hextall (trade Schenn, then sign JVR, ???).

The problem has always been the FO, Fletcher could have executed a bad strategy better, but it would have merely meant they would have been a 85-90 point team the past two seasons, pick in the teens instead of #5 and #7. Because they didn't have enough core talent to compete, especially after bad injury luck. And that was Holmgren/Scott and the "aggressive reload."

 

[renberg]

That’s not really true, they have constantly added to their depth at the trade deadlines over the years, often giving up high draft picks to do it. They’ve had to be more frugal in other areas, but they’ve also gotten guys to go there for less.

Yes they have tried to fill in their holes but the cap limits get in the way. The money laid out for Tavares is just one side of the cap problems caused by that signing. Nylander then jumped in for a big pay bump followed by Matthews and Marner. All of which, IMO, are overpaid but got that cash due to Tavares netting what he did.
I can’t blame the other Leaf players going for the money. If the FO was going to pay crazy money then the in house guys should get theirs as well. However then there’s not enough cap space left to fill in the roster holes.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

Even if Ghost wasn't a big loss, keep him an the save MULTIPLE high picks

+ 2nd it took to rid him
+ 2nd\3rd to get asstastic TDA
+ 3rd to move him to Carolina

That's a huge trove for a REBUILDING team

 

[kudymen]

Fletcher screwed up, so did Hextall (trade Schenn, then sign JVR, ???).

I didn’t contest the latter, I never even mentioned him. No idea why you put it in a reaction to my post other than minimising blame of Mr One Mistake. Predictable

 

[Curufinwe]

 

[Rebels57]

Vegas fans cheering their team for...not giving up 2 goals on the pp? What

Against the literal best PP in NHL history, that's pretty good actually lol

 

[Beef Invictus]

Those teams at least had some success pretty early. Final appearances and all that. Something to build on.

One second round appearance just to get knocked out in 5 games is embarrassing.

Not Washington

 

[Curufinwe]

We didn't "need" Ghost for the same reason we didn't need TDA, b/c neither was going to be around in a couple years.
Had we kept Ghost and not traded for TDA, we would have moved him at the TDL b/c no point extending him.
Note that TDA played much better in the second half in the "sheltered" 3rd pair/PP specialist role with Seeler

He didn’t play better, he just faced easier competition. And he was a healthy scratch the last FIVE games.

If they had kept Ghost they would have FIVE extra draft picks.

 

[kudymen]

He didn’t play better, he just faced easier competition. And he was a healthy scratch the last FIVE games.

If they had kept Ghost they would have FIVE extra draft picks.

I’ll just eagerly await if today is the day when volume of draft picks is important or if today is the day when said thing is negligible

#HypothesisJeopardy

 

[deadhead]

Even if Ghost wasn't a big loss, keep him an the save MULTIPLE high picks

+ 2nd it took to rid him
+ 2nd\3rd to get asstastic TDA
+ 3rd to move him to Carolina

That's a huge trove for a REBUILDING team

Yes. But that takes a front office that can actually accept the need to rebuild.
Flyers are like a drunk who has to hit rock bottom before he drags himself to an AAA meeting.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

The easy move would be to just trade Nylander. He had a career year and of all their core players he's probably the most replaceable. But would that be enough?

Matthews and Marner's playoff records aren't terrible, but to me they never look like they're dominating a game. They never look like they're desperate to make things happen like Giroux in his prime or all the other great players that eventually carry their team to a Stanley Cup final.

Some players just don't rise to the occasion, no matter how talented they are.

It's hard to win a cup. Look at Jumbo Joe or if it wasn't for Tim Thomas then every broons fan would be bitching and moaning about Bergeron too.
Best way to win is to be consistently one of the top teams and Leafs would be better served to dump Tavares when his owed $$ takes a serious dip after is bonus is payed. Because when it comes to their whole body of work he is the worst playoff performer out of all of them.