Miscellaneous NHL Discussion XC: Stoppage Time Not Required

[renberg]

Thanks for your answer, Devonator. I don't disagree about Ovechkin as a dynamic superstar. I don't like his cloak of referee invisibility he has worn through his career, including some very questionable hits he has thrown.

The guy has made a career off of basically playing one quarter of the ice. No doubt that he’s got a great shot but the rest of his game isn’t outstanding. Where would he be without Backstrom?

 

[Beef Invictus]

The guy has made a career off of basically playing one quarter of the ice. No doubt that he’s got a great shot but the rest of his game isn’t outstanding. Where would he be without Backstrom?

This is exactly why I fight back against claims he has the best goalscoring peak. I don't know about that at all. Same for Gretzky. They had great support. Guys like Selanne in 92, an Yzerman year early in his career, and Mario (especially before he had teammates) may have better peaks. Great years on bad teams. I say "may" because I really don't know; comparing across eras and factoring in teammate quality as well is really hard.

But as an overall career goalscorer? Yeah, it's him.

 

[TCTC]

For me we should start to define different times in Sports. Its stupid to say Maradona was as good as Messi. Or Ovi is better than Gretzky. Totally other times and the Sport is whole lot different. Its like woman soccer and male soccer. You cant comepare it!

Yeah, I hate comparing eras and often times the "goat" talk is just silly.

That said, breaking Gretzky's record would be a major achievment because in the end the numbers speak for themselves.

 

[sabremike]

This is exactly why I fight back against claims he has the best goalscoring peak. I don't know about that at all. Same for Gretzky. They had great support. Guys like Selanne in 92, an Yzerman year early in his career, and Mario (especially before he had teammates) may have better peaks. Great years on bad teams. I say "may" because I really don't know; comparing across eras and factoring in teammate quality as well is really hard.

But as an overall career goalscorer? Yeah, it's him.

Mike Bossy deserves a mention as well: 9 consecutive 50+ goal seasons and in his 10th and final one he nearly scored 40 despite missing a bunch of games and being half crippled.

Also:

 

[PDX Flyer]

For me we should start to define different times in Sports. Its stupid to say Maradona was as good as Messi. Or Ovi is better than Gretzky. Totally other times and the Sport is whole lot different. Its like woman soccer and male soccer. You cant comepare it!

As long as you agree the two best footballers come from Argentina!

 

[Ironmanrulez]

As long as you agree the two best footballers come from Argentina!

Nope sry bro

 

[Strawberry Fields]

The guy has made a career off of basically playing one quarter of the ice. No doubt that he’s got a great shot but the rest of his game isn’t outstanding. Where would he be without Backstrom?

Probably still scoring about 45-50+ goals a year, like he did his first two years playing with middle six guys like Zubrus and Chris Clark. Or like he did last year (with Backstrom missing a big part of the year) and is pacing for this year (though Kuzy is no slouch either).

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Probably still scoring about 45-50+ goals a year, like he did his first two years playing with middle six guys like Zubrus and Chris Clark. Or like he did last year (with Backstrom missing a big part of the year) and is pacing for this year (though Kuzy is no slouch either).

Yeah pretty sure Backstrom and Kuzy benefit more from playing with one of the greatest goal scorers of all time and how much a player like that sucks defences towards him creating space and passing lanes for his linemates. Not that those two are bad players, but how many of their points have come off OVs plays or from the "gravity" he exerts on defences.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Look at the leading scorers in the league currently. Pretty much all those guys play with another really good player or two either at 5v5 &/or the PP.

 

[Deadpool8812]

Look at the leading scorers in the league currently. Pretty much all those guys play with another really good player or two either at 5v5 &/or the PP.

But do they play with Kevin Hayes?

 

[Deadpool8812]

The guy has made a career off of basically playing one quarter of the ice. No doubt that he’s got a great shot but the rest of his game isn’t outstanding. Where would he be without Backstrom?

But you can say the exact same thing about Gretzky: where would he be if other players were allowed to touch him, or if he didn't play against goalies that literally couldnt stop the avg shot?

 

[renberg]

But you can say the exact same thing about Gretzky: where would he be if other players were allowed to touch him, or if he didn't play against goalies that literally couldnt stop the avg shot?

I don’t get into comparing eras. There were differences in both eras that balance out things. One thing about Gretzky that stands out to me over Ovechkin is that Gretzky did play both ends of the ice and was a more complete player. Ovechkin has a harder shot but after that the skill set and play in the game clearly makes Gretzky the superior player and it’s not even close.

 

[Tripod]

But you can say the exact same thing about Gretzky: where would he be if other players were allowed to touch him, or if he didn't play against goalies that literally couldnt stop the avg shot?

Or if he always had a 2nd skill guy with him instead of Semenko and McSorley

Or a whippy stick

Or...

 

[BernieParent]

 

[sabremike]

 

[CutOnDime97]

View attachment 626875

 

[GapToothedWonder]

I don’t get into comparing eras. There were differences in both eras that balance out things. One thing about Gretzky that stands out to me over Ovechkin is that Gretzky did play both ends of the ice and was a more complete player. Ovechkin has a harder shot but after that the skill set and play in the game clearly makes Gretzky the superior player and it’s not even close.

Gretzky playing better in the defensive end ia a pretty airtight point to bring up in a discussion about who's the better goal scorer. Kudos.

 

[DancingPanther]

View attachment 626861

View attachment 626875

Yes they did

 

[renberg]

In 1310 NHL games, Ovechkin has scored 802 goals; agog average of .612. In 702 games, Pavel Bure scored 437 for a gig OG .622. If Bure had been able to come over at age eighteen, Ovechkin would be chasing both him and Gretzky.

 

[Beef Invictus]

But you can say the exact same thing about Gretzky: where would he be if other players were allowed to touch him, or if he didn't play against goalies that literally couldnt stop the avg shot?

Guys were allowed allowed to touch Gretzky, they just couldn't.

 

[DancingPanther]

In 1310 NHL games, Ovechkin has scored 802 goals; agog average of .612. In 702 games, Pavel Bure scored 437 for a gig OG .622. If Bure had been able to come over at age eighteen, Ovechkin would be chasing both him and Gretzky.

And if the queen had balls, she'd be the king

 

[Beef Invictus]

In 1310 NHL games, Ovechkin has scored 802 goals; agog average of .612. In 702 games, Pavel Bure scored 437 for a gig OG .622. If Bure had been able to come over at age eighteen, Ovechkin would be chasing both him and Gretzky.

Bure has to stay healthy though. That's the hard part.

Likewise if Gretzky keeps his back and Mario is healthy, OV isn't close like he is now. But, none of them were as durable. OV has been.

As ive stated though, I deal in overall career for this. Peak is wildly difficult to compare with full accuracy.

Are any of these guys better at their best than the others? You can make an argument for each of them, and throw in Hull, Selanne, maybe Mogilny and Yzerman. It seems like too much work to figure out. So I won't.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

Ovechkin is great no doubt, but my gut just has a hard time actually placing him in the tier of Gretzky, Mario, etc. Even Crosby. I just don't think he impacted the game to their level.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Ovechkin is great no doubt, but my gut just has a hard time actually placing him in the tier of Gretzky, Mario, etc. Even Crosby. I just don't think he impacted the game to their level.

This is why I go granular and separate pure goalscoring over total impact.

 

[Rebels57]

In 1310 NHL games, Ovechkin has scored 802 goals; agog average of .612. In 702 games, Pavel Bure scored 437 for a gig OG .622. If Bure had been able to come over at age eighteen, Ovechkin would be chasing both him and Gretzky.

Bure came over at 20 and finished his career with 437 goals. Are you suggesting he would have scored 400+ goals in his 18 and 19 year old seasons in the NHL?

The reason he didn't crack 500 goals, let alone 800, is because he missed a shit load of games due to injury and then retired at 31 years old.

Ovechkin is great no doubt, but my gut just has a hard time actually placing him in the tier of Gretzky, Mario, etc. Even Crosby. I just don't think he impacted the game to their level.

Agreed. He's the greatest goal scorer of all-time but I don't think I have him in my Top 10 players of all-time.