Miscellaneous NHL Discussion LXXXVIII: The Liaison of Doom

[FLYguy3911]

I think everyone understands the risks of the NHL draft. It’s when teams have a shitty process, fans lose faith - Consolidating picks to trade up in the middle rounds, punting on two drafts because of Covid, prioritizing size and strength over pure skill, avoiding undersized defensemen because..., drafting low scoring 20 year old defenseman from the USHL, not prioritizing younger players, don't seem to value draft year production.

 

[renberg]

At least with Hextall there was a rhyme and reason behind his draft. With Fletcher/Flahr it’s become incoherent.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Most of all their drafting has been hurt by the changes in management and coaching. Hextall had a plan to emphasize getting goalies and defensemen first; then go for forwards later. Unfortunately he was short circuited.
IDK what Fletcher wants. It seems to be size and shooting ability. That’s all well and good but if they have skating issues in today’s game it won’t work. The organization across the board has to recognize where the game is today and draft accordingly. Right now that seems to be athleticism not merely strength or size or shooting ability alone.

It’s cool with me if we disagree.

I know the rankings the Flyers were given years back about how good the prospect pool was. I’m just not comfortable stating that it was all due to development/coaching while ignoring long tenured scouts that imo have trouble identifying dynamic talent.

I don’t trust them whatsoever. Putting this team in positions where their own impressions have more power than the community consensus is dangerous.

The draft is where imo your scouts/analytics staff should shine. Both of those departments on the Flyers are dogshit.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I think the NHL’s logic is that they’ve seen places like Tampa Bay, Nashville, Florida, etc. put butts in the seats when those teams were good & had a winning product to sell on the ice. So I think that on top & Arizona being a large media market they’re not willing to let it go that easily. But it’s essentially been musical chairs with their ownership there for a while now. It’s tough to bypass that stink.

 

[Magua]

Moving outside of the top few picks takes a club more away from consensus players, and closer yet to internal evaluation selections.

It would be hard for a team so concerned about optics, to go off the board with a top 3 pick for example. Not impossible - because it is the Flyers, but there is just more room for error when they rely more on their crackhead scouting department.

I understand your premise, on a team with a decent FO, analytics/scouting/developmental staff - being able to find talent outside of near guaranteed spots should be more of a possibility.

I strongly fear them moving into an 8th range. For this team that’s filled with the Gauthier’s, and York’s of the world. Playing “better” is a nice thing for this season, but it matters not if they don’t get a star from this draft.

Of course I'd rather pick higher than lower. I'm just saying that even the very bad teams might be picking 5th overall. And this draft class looks bananas, so it's not a "Bedard or Nothing" scenario.

You mention consensus drafting, and the higher the pick, the less they can f*** it up......but history isn't always kind to consensus drafting. No fanbase should know that better than ours. The Flyers just had a 5th, not 8th, overall pick and selected the consensus 5th overall player, according to McKenzie, who wouldn't have been my 15th overall pick. That was about as much evidence as I need to not trust this front office with any high pick. But you can't say they went off the reservation regarding consensus.

 

[deadhead]

Flyers have drafted pretty well, they've also had more bad luck than most, Patrick, Laberge, Lindblom, Allison up to now.
They found Hart in the 2nd, Allison in the 2nd, Lindblom in the 5th, N Cates in the 5th, Ghost in the 3rd, and so on.
They haven't had terrible misses at the top of the draft and hit on Sanheim at #17 and TK at #24, maybe Frost.

Nor is there a type, TK, Sanheim and Frost were all fast, "undersized" skill player.
Same with York, Brink, Andrae.

The problem has been multiple:
1) failure to commit to a rebuild so few high picks
2) failure to add talent at the margins, young players off waivers and trades for RFAs
3) 5 HCs (and two interim) the last 11 years, Lavi to Berube to Hakstol to Gordon to AV to Yeo to Torts.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Of course I'd rather pick higher than lower. I'm just saying that even the very bad teams might be picking 5th overall. And this draft class looks bananas, so it's not a "Bedard or Nothing" scenario.

You mention consensus drafting, and the higher the pick, the less they can f*** it up......but history isn't always kind to consensus drafting. No fanbase should know that better than ours. The Flyers just had a 5th, not 8th, overall pick and selected the consensus 5th overall player, according to McKenzie, who wouldn't have been my 15th overall pick. That was about as much evidence as I need to not trust this front office with any high pick. But you can't say they went off the reservation regarding consensus.

Was Gauthier the consensus 5th? I thought earlier in the year when I looked a little he wasn't that high, but I will openly defer to those who pay more attention in this department. I thought Jiricek was kind of the guy most would have picked - or at least myself anyway. Choosing York over Caufield was them thinking they know better than the majority, which really is a trend for the Flyers in more than just drafting of young players.

The Patrick pick I do hope people throw out the window. Mystical fairy tales from Clarke about how they wanted Makar instead I don't really believe. It sucks what happened with Nolan, but would any other team have not taken him?

I am not sure I see this as a team that goes with the majority on most things though. Not with the way the league is trending anyway. It will be interesting this year what happens are they forced into utilizing their own scouting department yet again when there is a little more ambiguity of who the "next best" player is.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Of course I'd rather pick higher than lower. I'm just saying that even the very bad teams might be picking 5th overall. And this draft class looks bananas, so it's not a "Bedard or Nothing" scenario.

You mention consensus drafting, and the higher the pick, the less they can f*** it up......but history isn't always kind to consensus drafting. No fanbase should know that better than ours. The Flyers just had a 5th, not 8th, overall pick and selected the consensus 5th overall player, according to McKenzie, who wouldn't have been my 15th overall pick. That was about as much evidence as I need to not trust this front office with any high pick. But you can't say they went off the reservation regarding consensus.

Wasn't Gauthier McKenzie's 5th overall player because his rankings are based off of where he's hearing players will go and not their actual talent level?

 

[deadhead]

Wasn't Nico considered more talented than Makar?

 

[Magua]

Wasn't Gauthier McKenzie's 5th overall player because his rankings are based off of where he's hearing players will go and not their actual talent level?

He surveys 10 NHL scouts. "Though Gauthier played some centre this season, most scouts seem to think he projects more as a pro winger. In our scout survey, Gauthier was as high as No. 3 and as low as No. 10." Wouldn't blow my mind to discover the Flyers ranked him 3rd. But if they were against consensus, it's the former point.

Was Gauthier the consensus 5th? I thought earlier in the year when I looked a little he wasn't that high, but I will openly defer to those who pay more attention in this department. I thought Jiricek was kind of the guy most would have picked - or at least myself anyway. Choosing York over Caufield was them thinking they know better than the majority, which really is a trend for the Flyers in more than just drafting of young players.

But you're talking high end talent -- no more Yorks! And I think Jiricek is a skilled defensive defenseman. I can't square that circle. I think he's projectable as a support player, the very player you're maligning. Maybe that's with an elite #1. Maybe that's as a 2nd pair player. Frankly, Slafkovsky, Nemec, Jiricek -- all of these guys I had issue with projecting as truly high-end players. To my point, I'll bet you that a handful of players taken in that 1st round surpass them. But every draft is different with certainty up top -- 2023 draft might be idiot proof.

In that 2019 draft, which you mentioned, Boldy and Zegras might be the 2 best forwards taken after Jack Hughes -- I had that opinion at the time, let alone now. They went 9 and 11. The Flyers could've drafted Boldy, so they did actually choose York over him. The consensus best forwards were Kakko (2), Turcotte (4), Dach (5), Cozens (6). How would you feel about that if the Flyers went consensus there? Seider was 16 by the way, with York 18.

 

[FlyerNutter]

He surveys 10 NHL scouts. "Though Gauthier played some centre this season, most scouts seem to think he projects more as a pro winger. In our scout survey, Gauthier was as high as No. 3 and as low as No. 10." Wouldn't blow my mind to discover the Flyers ranked him 3rd. But if they were against consensus, it's the former point.



But you're talking high end talent -- no more Yorks! And I think Jiricek is a skilled defensive defenseman. I can't square that circle. I think he's projectable as a support player, the very player you're maligning. Maybe that's with an elite #1. Maybe that's as a 2nd pair player. Frankly, Slafkovsky, Nemec, Jiricek -- all of these guys I had issue with projecting as truly high-end players. To my point, I'll bet you that a handful of players taken in that 1st round surpass them. But every draft is different with certainty up top -- 2023 draft might be idiot proof.

In that 2019 draft, which you mentioned, Boldy and Zegras might be the 2 best forwards taken after Jack Hughes -- I had that opinion at the time, let alone now. They went 9 and 11. The Flyers could've drafted Boldy, so they did actually chose York over him. The consensus best forwards were Kakko (2), Turcotte (4), Dach (5), Cozens (6). How would you feel about that if the Flyers went consensus there? Seider was 16 by the way, with York 18.

If you could please use lube next time.

Thank you kindly

Also Also. If i can't trust consensus, nor the Flyers. Who can I trust.

 

[Magua]

If i can't trust consensus, nor the Flyers. Who can I trust.

@BigToe

 

[Striiker]

I still can’t believe we wasted the 5th overall pick on a size-fetish floor pick.

 

[Chinatown88]

He surveys 10 NHL scouts. "Though Gauthier played some centre this season, most scouts seem to think he projects more as a pro winger. In our scout survey, Gauthier was as high as No. 3 and as low as No. 10." Wouldn't blow my mind to discover the Flyers ranked him 3rd. But if they were against consensus, it's the former point.



But you're talking high end talent -- no more Yorks! And I think Jiricek is a skilled defensive defenseman. I can't square that circle. I think he's projectable as a support player, the very player you're maligning. Maybe that's with an elite #1. Maybe that's as a 2nd pair player. Frankly, Slafkovsky, Nemec, Jiricek -- all of these guys I had issue with projecting as truly high-end players. To my point, I'll bet you that a handful of players taken in that 1st round surpass them. But every draft is different with certainty up top -- 2023 draft might be idiot proof.

In that 2019 draft, which you mentioned, Boldy and Zegras might be the 2 best forwards taken after Jack Hughes -- I had that opinion at the time, let alone now. They went 9 and 11. The Flyers could've drafted Boldy, so they did actually choose York over him. The consensus best forwards were Kakko (2), Turcotte (4), Dach (5), Cozens (6). How would you feel about that if the Flyers went consensus there? Seider was 16 by the way, with York 18.

*Chuck and Brent have entered the chat*

 

[Magua]

*Chuck and Brent have entered the chat*

 

[Beef Invictus]

Flyers have drafted pretty well, they've also had more bad luck than most, Patrick, Laberge, Lindblom, Allison up to now.
They found Hart in the 2nd, Allison in the 2nd, Lindblom in the 5th, N Cates in the 5th, Ghost in the 3rd, and so on.
They haven't had terrible misses at the top of the draft and hit on Sanheim at #17 and TK at #24, maybe Frost.

Nor is there a type, TK, Sanheim and Frost were all fast, "undersized" skill player.
Same with York, Brink, Andrae.

The problem has been multiple:
1) failure to commit to a rebuild so few high picks
2) failure to add talent at the margins, young players off waivers and trades for RFAs
3) 5 HCs (and two interim) the last 11 years, Lavi to Berube to Hakstol to Gordon to AV to Yeo to Torts.

You know this adds up to bad development as a major problem, right?

 

[FLYguy3911]

Never realized James had a dumper.

 

[Chinatown88]

Never realized James had a dumper.

Must resist temptation to be Pokemon nerd.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

I still can’t believe we wasted the 5th overall pick on a size-fetish floor pick.

its 100% onbrand...

 

[Magua]

Never realized James had a dumper.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Flyers have drafted pretty well

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Flyers have drafted pretty well, they've also had more bad luck than most, Patrick, Laberge, Lindblom, Allison up to now.
They found Hart in the 2nd, Allison in the 2nd, Lindblom in the 5th, N Cates in the 5th, Ghost in the 3rd, and so on.
They haven't had terrible misses at the top of the draft and hit on Sanheim at #17 and TK at #24, maybe Frost.

Nor is there a type, TK, Sanheim and Frost were all fast, "undersized" skill player.
Same with York, Brink, Andrae.

The problem has been multiple:
1) failure to commit to a rebuild so few high picks
2) failure to add talent at the margins, young players off waivers and trades for RFAs
3) 5 HCs (and two interim) the last 11 years, Lavi to Berube to Hakstol to Gordon to AV to Yeo to Torts.

Go back from 2004 to 2019. That is not drafting pretty well in my opinion. Giroux and Couturier are the only difference makers. Numerous drafts of nothing. 19 NHL somewhat regular players (of different quality) out of all those draft picks (119 I believe). Now some the jury is still out on. Guess the definition of pretty well varies.

 

[Beef Invictus]

View attachment 594955

Fletcher has drafted worse than Hextall.

 

[renberg]

Fletcher has drafted worse than Hextall.

I agree with you but we'll have to give it a couple of years to see how it totally pans out. Foerster, Desnoyers, Hogberg and Wisdom may end up being contributors. Could be one or two from this year's draft.
Blowing the '21 draft completely is unforgivable. It may have been a down year but there we're players to be had in it. It struck me as lazy scouting because of Covid.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Hogberg was a Hextall pick.