Miscellaneous NHL Discussion LXXXVI: 86 Proof

[blackjackmulligan]

Hart, Allison 2nd rd.
Lindblom, Cates is a good bet, Lycksell has a shot, Fedotov (once he escapes the Naval Gulag). Sandstrom.
Longer odds, Ersson, Ratcliffe.

Andrae, Brink 2nd rd
Attard, Wisdom, Desnoyers.
Too early to project from recent drafts.

So they have drafted no one pretty much at the end of the day as all still have huge question marks. When any of those are NHL regulars we can revisit.

Lets focus on the prior GM's picks as enough time has gone by. How does that look?

 

[deadhead]

2C and 3C being the same thing is at the core of my approach to modern hockey. I don’t care if a guy gets 2 extra 5v5 minutes.

I do care if he plays with quality linemates or not. I do care if room is made on the NHL roster for vet useless plugs at the expense of someone you hope can be meaningful. You can even play those guys on the 4th line if you’re giving them quality linemates. Just give them a chance at success. That’s it.

Though you have to have prospects who are ready and healthy.
And ready matters, I think you do a prospect a disservice by rushing them and having them get kicked in the teeth.

Last July, they probably projected this lineup
G - Couts - TK
JVR - Hayes - Atkinson
Lindblom - Frost - Allison
Laughton - Laczynski - NAK
or something like that.
With Bunnaman, Brown, as depth.

Then Laczynski goes down so they sign Brassard, Frost isn't ready coming off his shoulder injury, then Hayes goes down, Couts is hobbled then goes down, LIndblom never gets back to his pre-cancer form, and the hits kept coming (Brassard goes down, Laughton's concussion, Atkinson dinged up, . . . ). MacEwen over NAK was the least of their problems.

This team has struggled with organizational depth for over a decade - that means in the good years (few injuries) they're competitive, but if a few players go down, the house generally caves in.

I'm not enamored with Deslauriers, but I understand him or his ilk on a one year contract, with Ratcliffe, Lycksell as your other options. On a 4yr deal? Bleech, Fortunately he can be buried (like Weise was) if need be, but still a waste.

Of course, you could have kept Lindblom, but then you're playing him out of position on the 4th line at $3M, which is really not a better option. Because he's not as good as N Cates (who reminds me of pre-cancer Lindblom) these days. And may not be as good as Lycksell come January (my sleeper, coming off a breakout SHL season).

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Already having Zegras, MacTavish, & Drysdale (they got other nice prospects that could be top 4D/6F guys too) in the system it’s pretty unfair to land a seconder with this potential outcome.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Though you have to have prospects who are ready and healthy.
And ready matters, I think you do a prospect a disservice by rushing them and having them get kicked in the teeth.

Last July, they probably projected this lineup
G - Couts - TK
JVR - Hayes - Atkinson
Lindblom - Frost - Allison
Laughton - Laczynski - NAK
or something like that.
With Bunnaman, Brown, as depth.

Then Laczynski goes down so they sign Brassard, Frost isn't ready coming off his shoulder injury, then Hayes goes down, Couts is hobbled then goes down, LIndblom never gets back to his pre-cancer form, and the hits kept coming (Brassard goes down, Laughton's concussion, Atkinson dinged up, . . . ). MacEwen over NAK was the least of their problems.

This team has struggled with organizational depth for over a decade - that means in the good years (few injuries) they're competitive, but if a few players go down, the house generally caves in.

I'm not enamored with Deslauriers, but I understand him or his ilk on a one year contract, with Ratcliffe, Lycksell as your other options. On a 4yr deal? Bleech, Fortunately he can be buried (like Weise was) if need be, but still a waste.

Of course, you could have kept Lindblom, but then you're playing him out of position on the 4th line at $3M, which is really not a better option. Because he's not as good as N Cates (who reminds me of pre-cancer Lindblom) these days. And may not be as good as Lycksell come January (my sleeper, coming off a breakout SHL season).

Who cares if he’s “out of position”? The difference between Deslauriers and Lindblom this year was about 1.6 in cap hit. Even ignoring the term for your hypothetical preference, we still have to account for the hit you take next year for the buyout. Plus it’s overwhelmingly likely you could have flipped Lindblom at the deadline for something.

You cannot convince me that there wouldn’t have been a taker for Lindblom with retention today given that he got a 2nd year on his contract at almost the same rate someone could have had him for one year without retention. There’s no takeaway here that makes any sense other than they value Deslauriers specifically this much.

These terrible decisions where they lose in the margins compound year after year.

 

[Curufinwe]

Though you have to have prospects who are ready and healthy.
And ready matters, I think you do a prospect a disservice by rushing them and having them get kicked in the teeth.

Last July, they probably projected this lineup
G - Couts - TK
JVR - Hayes - Atkinson
Lindblom - Frost - Allison
Laughton - Laczynski - NAK
or something like that.

No, they never projected Lindblom or Frost or Allison playing ahead of Laughton.

And Brassard was signed on 8/25. Well before Laczynski got hurt again in September.

 

[bennysflyers16]

Good teams do good things.

The one that got away,,,, The main reason we have KevDog !

 

[Beef Invictus]

Same people who didn't want the Flyers to sign Hayes 3 years ago because he'd "block" Morgan Frost at 2C are now saying the Flyers should have signed Stastny. Who would block Frost at 3C or Cates at 3L.

Just like the people who complained at the Flyers not going with a full tank and rebuild complained about not trading a 1st in order to sign a 29 year-old Gaudreau to $63M.

It's about complaining more than it is logical consistency.

Strawman arguments again?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Though you have to have prospects who are ready and healthy.
And ready matters, I think you do a prospect a disservice by rushing them and having them get kicked in the teeth.

Last July, they probably projected this lineup
G - Couts - TK
JVR - Hayes - Atkinson
Lindblom - Frost - Allison
Laughton - Laczynski - NAK
or something like that.
With Bunnaman, Brown, as depth.

Then Laczynski goes down so they sign Brassard, Frost isn't ready coming off his shoulder injury, then Hayes goes down, Couts is hobbled then goes down, LIndblom never gets back to his pre-cancer form, and the hits kept coming (Brassard goes down, Laughton's concussion, Atkinson dinged up, . . . ). MacEwen over NAK was the least of their problems.

This team has struggled with organizational depth for over a decade - that means in the good years (few injuries) they're competitive, but if a few players go down, the house generally caves in.

I'm not enamored with Deslauriers, but I understand him or his ilk on a one year contract, with Ratcliffe, Lycksell as your other options. On a 4yr deal? Bleech, Fortunately he can be buried (like Weise was) if need be, but still a waste.

Of course, you could have kept Lindblom, but then you're playing him out of position on the 4th line at $3M, which is really not a better option. Because he's not as good as N Cates (who reminds me of pre-cancer Lindblom) these days. And may not be as good as Lycksell come January (my sleeper, coming off a breakout SHL season).

Last July they were already talking about how Allison wouldn't make the lineup because Fletcher didn't think he showed enough. They had also signed Thompson in July, and they were never projecting him off the roster completely much less not starting every game he was physically able to.

And anyone who had paid any attention to how Fletcher operates was able to correctly predict they'd contrive a way to avoid starting Frost.

 

[Rebels57]

Good teams do good things.

Stastny making less than Deslauriers

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Good teams do good things.

Cheaper than the dumbass face puncher

 

[deadhead]

No, they never projected Lindblom or Frost or Allison playing ahead of Laughton.

And Brassard was signed on 8/25. Well before Laczynski got hurt again in September.

Yeah, the timing is off, though you wonder if they had doubts about Laczynski and they knew Frost might not be ready coming off his shoulder injury.

This is what Charlie projected after the signing:

G - Couts - Atkinson
Farabee - Hayes - TK
JVR - Brassard - Allison
Laughton - Thompson - Lindblom
NAK, Laczynski, Bunnaman

Since Brassard had been better on the wing, it's likely that Brassard at 4LW and Laughton at 3C was the plan.
The previous two seasons Brassard had posted GAR of +4.1 and +5.2, so he was a good addition at the price ($825K)
Managed to score 16 points in 31 games (Frost had 16 in 55g), just couldn't stay healthy, but still garnered a 4th at the TDL.

Note that NAK had a horrid start (32.78% xGF in 7g) after a subpar season the year before.
Bunnaman was actually worse than Thompson (a complete offensive cipher)
Laczynski got hurt, Allison got hurt.
Sometimes players block themselves.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yeah, the timing is off, though you wonder if they had doubts about Laczynski and they knew Frost might not be ready coming off his shoulder injury.

This is what Charlie projected after the signing:

G - Couts - Atkinson
Farabee - Hayes - TK
JVR - Brassard - Allison
Laughton - Thompson - Lindblom
NAK, Laczynski, Bunnaman

Since Brassard had been better on the wing, it's likely that Brassard at 4LW and Laughton at 3C was the plan.
The previous two seasons Brassard had posted GAR of +4.1 and +5.2, so he was a good addition at the price ($825K)
Managed to score 16 points in 31 games (Frost had 16 in 55g), just couldn't stay healthy, but still garnered a 4th at the TDL.

Note that NAK had a horrid start (32.78% xGF in 7g) after a subpar season the year before.
Bunnaman was actually worse than Thompson (a complete offensive cipher)
Laczynski got hurt, Allison got hurt.
Sometimes players block themselves.

They signed Thompson. No prospect was ever going to play over him.

 

[flyerslducks]

Already having Zegras, MacTavish, & Drysdale (they got other nice prospects that could be top 4D/6F guys too) in the system it’s pretty unfair to land a seconder with this potential outcome.

Hell ya! At least one of my teams is doing it right. Obviously more a flyer fan but j can watch some decent young players here in cali

 

[blackjackmulligan]

They signed Thompson. No prospect was ever going to play over him.

In all fairness Sean Couturier said he was needed or something to that effect....

 

[Beef Invictus]

In all fairness Sean Couturier said he was needed or something to that effect....

Which has confirmed I never want Couturier to work in management here

 

[FlyerNutter]

Which has confirmed I never want Couturier to work in management here

He mentioned him by name, unprompted no?

Hockey IQ my ass. I wonder how many posters of the Alamo he has in his room.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

Fletcher's tenure drafting for the Wild was horrific outside the 1st round. Kaprizov already has the 5th most games played since 2010, just ahead of Soucy and Seeler. And I know you cling to the fantasy that he and Blech Bleh are draft sages.

Counting certain Fletcher Flyers picks before almost all of them have turned pro is also a questionable argument. We've seen how that works out. GMs get too much shit and too much credit for mid-late round picks anyway. All they can do is set draft philosophies and hope their underlings (with many scouts predating the GM) do their jobs. Fletcher's draft philosophy is to draft for fit and floor (read: AHL depth). And not draft much at all, even if the team is out of the playoffs. That's one helluva draft philosophy.

Now, taking the long way back to your point, a GM takes a metric ton more credit for NHL level moves. Where Sakic has run laps and laps around dear Chuckles. Your false equivalencies are just that.

I remember years ago he said eichel was going to be a much better player than McDavid lol

 

[deadhead]

Fletcher's Minn picks outside the first rd:
2009: #161 Kuemper, #182 Haula
2010: #56 Larsson, #59 Zucker
2011 #131 Seeler
2013: #137 Soucy
2014: #109 Kahkonen G
2015: #50 Greenway, #135 Kaprizov
2016: #106 Duhaime

 

[Beef Invictus]

Fletcher's Minn picks outside the first rd:
2009: #161 Kuemper, #182 Haula
2010: #56 Larsson, #59 Zucker
2011 #131 Seeler
2013: #137 Soucy
2014: #109 Kahkonen G
2015: #50 Greenway, #135 Kaprizov
2016: #106 Duhaime

Pretty shitty, yes. We are aware. Weird how his fans keep insisting he's a draft guru turning things around.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Fletcher's Minn picks outside the first rd:
2009: #161 Kuemper, #182 Haula
2010: #56 Larsson, #59 Zucker
2011 #131 Seeler
2013: #137 Soucy
2014: #109 Kahkonen G
2015: #50 Greenway, #135 Kaprizov
2016: #106 Duhaime

Kuemper at 161, Haula at 182, Zucker at 59, Soucy at 137, & Greenway at 50 are all very good picks.

Kaprizov at 135 is the best over 100 pick since Gaudreau.

Kahkonen at 109 is a hit for the 4th rd, as he’s an established NHL backup goalie & may even end up SJ’s starter.

And Duhaime also has at least become an NHL regular for a 4th rd pick. He’s probably on par with 2nd rounder NAK.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

We could look at it this way:

Chuck in MN: 9 drafts, 59 non-1st rd picks with 3,001 total NHL games played.

Avg of 50.1 NHL GP per non-first.

Hexy in PHL: 5 drafts, 34 non-1st rd picks with 830 total NHL games played.

Avg of 24.4 NHL GP per non-first.

Obviously Chuck’s drafts go back two years further, so that’s a chance for more NHL GP, & a couple of Hexy’s non-1sts might hit the NHL this season, but still…. That’s a big discrepancy. Doesn’t support the notion whatsoever that Hexy was a better non-1st rd drafter.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

We could look at it this way:

Chuck in MN: 7 drafts, 53 non-1st rd picks with 2,995 total NHL games played.

Avg of 56.5 NHL GP per non-first.

Hexy in PHL: 5 drafts, 34 non-1st rd picks with 830 total NHL games played.

Avg of 24.4 NHL GP per non-first.

Obviously Chuck’s drafts go back two years further, so that’s a chance for more NHL GP, & a couple of Hexy’s non-1sts might hit the NHL this season, but still…. That’s a big discrepancy. Doesn’t support the notion whatsoever that Hexy was a better non-1st rd drafter.

Oh look, you're making up arguments again in order to bash Hextall.

The original statement made by deadhead was:

Of all the flaws of the Flyer management since 2014, drafting outside the 1st rd isn't one of them.

Not a single person has argued on behalf of Hextall since that statement was made.

For the people in the back, saying that Chuck Fletcher is shitty at his job doesn't mean that Hextall was good at it. This doesn't need to be stated explicitly each time.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Oh look, you're making up arguments again in order to bash Hextall.

The original statement made by deadhead was:



Not a single person has argued on behalf of Hextall since that statement was made.

For the people in the back, saying that Chuck Fletcher is shitty at his job doesn't mean that Hextall was good at it. This doesn't need to be stated explicitly each time.

Someone was quoted as saying Fletcher’s drafts outside the 1st rd. in MN were “horrific.”

The evidence doesn’t support “horrific.”

This same person, & others, continue to give Hextall largely a free ride from criticism.

So I wanted to make the point that if Fletcher’s non-firsts in MN were “horrific,” then so far Hextall’s non-first in PHL can’t even be charted they’re so bad in comparison.

Feel free to ignore if you wish.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Someone was quoted as saying Fletcher’s drafts outside the 1st rd. in MN were “horrific.”

The evidence doesn’t support “horrific.”

This same person, & others, continue to give Hextall largely a free ride from criticism.

So I wanted to make the point that if Fletcher’s non-firsts in MN were “horrific,” then so far Hextall’s non-first in PHL can’t even be charted they’re so bad in comparison.

Feel free to ignore if you wish.

What does Hextall have to do with anything? Whoever that person is was talking about Chuck Fletcher. You don't need to bring up Ron Hextall at every single turn.

YOU can feel free to ignore it.

 

[Flyerfan18]

Last July they were already talking about how Allison wouldn't make the lineup because Fletcher didn't think he showed enough. They had also signed Thompson in July, and they were never projecting him off the roster completely much less not starting every game he was physically able to.

And anyone who had paid any attention to how Fletcher operates was able to correctly predict they'd contrive a way to avoid starting Frost.

Well with all Allison’s injuries and Frost playing scared and showing he is likely a bust I guess Fletcher was spot on with his assessment. Surprised you spouted off in support of Fletcher