Confirmed Buy-Out [MIN] Zach Parise and Ryan Suter

Sota Popinski

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saying “get younger, get better” is easy. Well sure, of course, everyone would want to do that ideally. Getting younger makes sense with what he has done. Better? I don’t see the path.
That's because you don't want to see the path. You want to talk shit before the offseason has even really started.

Next year Rask comes off the books. That's $4M. Zuccarello's NMC becomes a 10 team no-trade. There is $10M. Parise and Suter's cap hits go up $8M. There you go. There is the way to keep the players they get this offseason.
 
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That's because you don't want to see the path. You want to talk shit before the offseason has even really started.

Next year Rask comes off the books. That's $4M. Zuccarello's NMC becomes a 10 team no-trade. There is $10.1M. Parise and Suter's cap hits go up $8M. There you go. There is the way to keep the players they get this offseason.

You think trading Zuccarello, 0.82 ppg last season, will make this team better? :laugh:

I'll tell you this, he's one of the few players left on this team who can prevent them from ending up in the dungeons for years to come.
 
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You think trading Zuccarello, 0.82 ppg last season, will make this team better? :laugh:

I'll tell you this, he's one of the few players left on this team who can prevent them from ending up in the dungeons for years to come.
Guerin's been pretty ruthless about moving away from players before they go over the edge: first Zucker and Staal, an attempt on Parise last summer, and now these buyouts. I anticipate Zuccarello having another strong season, but when he's going on 35 next summer and still has 2 years left at $6m? Name's going to the top of the Sell list.
 

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Guerin's been pretty ruthless about moving away from players before they go over the edge: first Zucker and Staal, an attempt on Parise last summer, and now these buyouts. I anticipate Zuccarello having another strong season, but when he's going on 35 next summer and still has 2 years left at $6m? Name's going to the top of the Sell list.
Agreed, everyone was shocked by the Staal move, but Staal's performance this year showed why Guerin wanted out sooner rather than later.

The moment Zucc starts to slip, I can definitely see Guerin wanting to free up the cap.
 

Dr Jan Itor

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Suter needs to seriously drop off next year or it's not going to mean much. Looking back in 3 or 4 years saying "see" when he's still a top 4 defenseman for the next 2-3 isn't going to be any sort point made.

Whatever Guerin's reasons for wanting Suter gone weren't on-the-ice hockey related, isn't salary cap related, and by his own words weren't expansion related. Unless he was a gigantic prick behind the seasons, his half of this equation continues to not make sense. Unless the next 3 things he does make it make sense.
 
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Rabid Ranger

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Suter needs to seriously drop off next year or it's not going to mean much. Looking back in 3 or 4 years saying "see" when he's still a top 4 defenseman for the next 2-3 isn't going to be any sort point made.

Whatever Guerin's reasons for wanting Suter gone weren't on-the-ice hockey related, isn't salary cap related, and by his own words weren't expansion related. Unless he was a gigantic prick behind the seasons, his half of this equation continues to not make sense. Unless the next 3 things he does make it make sense.

I saw this story today: Jim Souhan: Wild wanted both Zach Parise and Ryan Suter gone (msn.com)

It sounds like Suter and Parise were pretty comfortable and Guerin was playing those kinds of games. So, in that sense I think you're 100% right-this was more about a culture shift and Guerin putting his stamp on a team that to be fair probably defines vanilla where pro sports are concerned.
 

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Sota Popinski

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You think trading Zuccarello, 0.82 ppg last season, will make this team better? :laugh:

I'll tell you this, he's one of the few players left on this team who can prevent them from ending up in the dungeons for years to come.
How was he the season before? There's no guarantee he plays as well next season, especially if he isn't playing with Kaprizov. I'm not saying they would be better or worse. I'm saying it's an option
 

State of Hockey

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Trades not really an option when you have the threat of recapture always hanging over you. Guerin would have to keep that dead cap space in the event the recapture kicked in, correct?

Parise was no longer a contributor on this team as evidenced by him being a healthy scratch towards the end of the regular season and post season, so there is no question that a buyout makes sense for him.

Suter was a contributor last season, and probably would be for another season or two. But by seasons 3 and 4, he most likely would've found himself in the same situation as Parise, a healthy scratch most nights with a $7.5 million cap hit....which is essentially dead cap space, no?

Yes and no. He would have to plan for that possibility, yes, but it's not like he couldn't ever work around that scenario if it ever arose. The quick take to the situation we were in is that the cap recapture situation couldn't get worse for us than if they had retired this season as a Wild or were traded yesterday and retired right before the end of their contracts (the only significant difference in the latter is the timing of the dead cap). And of course some retained salary in a trade could have helped mitigate that threat as well. Now neither of those worst case scenarios will happen, because we decided for worst case option 3. We had just hit the peak of the cap recapture penalty. And to celebrate that threshold we voluntarily decided to take nearly the full cap recapture penalty in the form of a longer buyout penalty with known years of impact. No amount of "locker room issues" or "Mathew Dumba has to be protected at all costs" conundrums are worth that crippling decision.

I think of it this way. It's like Bill Guerin stepping into a company and finding out that it there's a realistic chance of bankruptcy outside of his control in the next four years. On the other hand there's also a very realistic chance that bankruptcy will not be necessary with the outside market conditions and internal moves that could be made. And his decision? File bankruptcy now and go through the full 4+ years of pain simply to avoid the mere possibility that it might happen in the future when he can't control the timing. It doesn't make any logical sense.

Before we talk about if a buyout made sense for Parise, I think it's important to talk about why Parise was on the outs with the team. Yes, he was declining, and we knew that likely to happen at his age. This isn't a surprise to anyone paying attention. Yes, he was brought in by a previous regime, and he isn't one of the new regime's "guys". And of course his contract was what it was. They couldn't change it. However, it is Guerin and company's job to manage that difficult situation. It's their job to manage the relationship with their players. You have to play the cards you are dealt, not play it like the hand you wish you had. And there it's safe to say that Guerin and gang couldn't have handled it much worse. Clearly the relationship was Parise was awful. It's the GM's job to manage the situation so it doesn't get to this point with a player with a contract in which he holds all the power. This is why you may have to accept a "bad" trade before a player declines and doesn't live up to a contract with no painless out clauses. This is why you may have to play a player in a role you don't think he deserves until you can separate on terms more favorable to the team. It's ironic that in the playoffs he showed them up by scoring the same amount of goals and points as any other player, including Kaprizov, with a fraction of their ice time and with 0 seconds on the PP. We can be upset at Parise all we want, but none of that absolves the GM and staff from the responsibility of managing the situation. And one cannot say they did it well. They are at minimum partly responsible for the situation they are in right now. It's time Minnesota sports fans stop giving out free passes. If the "right decision" at the time is one that brought on by previous mistakes, it was not good management.

Suter: "a contributor"? That's all you're giving him? One of the four defensemen that essentially tied for #1 in ice time for one of the best defense cores in the league? One of the most important pieces to special teams? That's a little more than contributing. That's an important piece to the puzzle. Let's say he does decline rapidly. You know what's crazy? A Suter healthy scratch at 7.538m in year three and four is still better than a bought-out Suter at 7.371m and a league-minimum player scratched instead! There was literally no risk to keeping Suter for the time being. His cap recapture situation improves from here on out. He was an important part of the team that now must be replaced, creating an even larger cap/talent issue. The relationship was at minimum amicable, and he wanted to play here, so there wasn't a risk with sudden non-injury retirement. Now he's public evidence to show the league that Minnesota might not be the team you want to play for. Buying him out now is the single worst move I've seen a wild GM make.
 

ThePsychicSaw

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Yes and no. He would have to plan for that possibility, yes, but it's not like he couldn't ever work around that scenario if it ever arose. The quick take to the situation we were in is that the cap recapture situation couldn't get worse for us than if they had retired this season as a Wild or were traded yesterday and retired right before the end of their contracts (the only significant difference in the latter is the timing of the dead cap). And of course some retained salary in a trade could have helped mitigate that threat as well. Now neither of those worst case scenarios will happen, because we decided for worst case option 3. We had just hit the peak of the cap recapture penalty. And to celebrate that threshold we voluntarily decided to take nearly the full cap recapture penalty in the form of a longer buyout penalty with known years of impact. No amount of "locker room issues" or "Mathew Dumba has to be protected at all costs" conundrums are worth that crippling decision.

I think of it this way. It's like Bill Guerin stepping into a company and finding out that it there's a realistic chance of bankruptcy outside of his control in the next four years. On the other hand there's also a very realistic chance that bankruptcy will not be necessary with the outside market conditions and internal moves that could be made. And his decision? File bankruptcy now and go through the full 4+ years of pain simply to avoid the mere possibility that it might happen in the future when he can't control the timing. It doesn't make any logical sense.

Before we talk about if a buyout made sense for Parise, I think it's important to talk about why Parise was on the outs with the team. Yes, he was declining, and we knew that likely to happen at his age. This isn't a surprise to anyone paying attention. Yes, he was brought in by a previous regime, and he isn't one of the new regime's "guys". And of course his contract was what it was. They couldn't change it. However, it is Guerin and company's job to manage that difficult situation. It's their job to manage the relationship with their players. You have to play the cards you are dealt, not play it like the hand you wish you had. And there it's safe to say that Guerin and gang couldn't have handled it much worse. Clearly the relationship was Parise was awful. It's the GM's job to manage the situation so it doesn't get to this point with a player with a contract in which he holds all the power. This is why you may have to accept a "bad" trade before a player declines and doesn't live up to a contract with no painless out clauses. This is why you may have to play a player in a role you don't think he deserves until you can separate on terms more favorable to the team. It's ironic that in the playoffs he showed them up by scoring the same amount of goals and points as any other player, including Kaprizov, with a fraction of their ice time and with 0 seconds on the PP. We can be upset at Parise all we want, but none of that absolves the GM and staff from the responsibility of managing the situation. And one cannot say they did it well. They are at minimum partly responsible for the situation they are in right now. It's time Minnesota sports fans stop giving out free passes. If the "right decision" at the time is one that brought on by previous mistakes, it was not good management.

Suter: "a contributor"? That's all you're giving him? One of the four defensemen that essentially tied for #1 in ice time for one of the best defense cores in the league? One of the most important pieces to special teams? That's a little more than contributing. That's an important piece to the puzzle. Let's say he does decline rapidly. You know what's crazy? A Suter healthy scratch at 7.538m in year three and four is still better than a bought-out Suter at 7.371m and a league-minimum player scratched instead! There was literally no risk to keeping Suter for the time being. His cap recapture situation improves from here on out. He was an important part of the team that now must be replaced, creating an even larger cap/talent issue. The relationship was at minimum amicable, and he wanted to play here, so there wasn't a risk with sudden non-injury retirement. Now he's public evidence to show the league that Minnesota might not be the team you want to play for. Buying him out now is the single worst move I've seen a wild GM make.
This is the context that had me so critical, even as an outsider looking in.

I'm baffled by outrageous decisions, and although I'm not privy to all the information, neither are other defenders who are not just supporting this, but heralding it. A double buyout that seems to be objectively, one of worst gm decisions I can recall in the last decade.

It reeks of short sightedness and ego from guerin, regardless of how long he proclaims to have deliberated over it, without even speaking with the players, mind you. These are professionals, you doing think they feel disrespected, regardless of the money they are still being paid? Especially these particular players? You don't think that reverberates through a lockeroom? To other prospective free agents?

Smh, good luck wild, hard not to see uninteresting times in the worst spot in this league, just outside the playoffs for the next decade, not getting impactful picks, not attracting UFAs, and discouraging players from staying.
 

rynryn

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This is the context that had me so critical, even as an outsider looking in.

I'm baffled by outrageous decisions, and although I'm not privy to all the information, neither are other defenders who are not just supporting this, but heralding it. A double buyout that seems to be objectively, one of worst gm decisions I can recall in the last decade.

It reeks of short sightedness and ego from guerin, regardless of how long he proclaims to have deliberated over it, without even speaking with the players, mind you. These are professionals, you doing think they feel disrespected, regardless of the money they are still being paid? Especially these particular players? You don't think that reverberates through a lockeroom? To other prospective free agents?

Smh, good luck wild, hard not to see uninteresting times in the worst spot in this league, just outside the playoffs for the next decade, not getting impactful picks, not attracting UFAs, and discouraging players from staying.

BG made "country club" comments soon after he took over. for years before that there have been grumbling about divides between the younger players and those with the huge contracts. I do not think this was as big a shock to the players as you seem to think.

It bears repeating that this is the only way BG could plan for the long term. The threat of retirement penalties made trades a dice roll. Witness Mikko thinking he had another year in him then deciding enough was enough. I'm sure that gave BG a scare. like what if we traded Zach to the Isles, he was relegated to the fourth line then decided to retire? we're screwed by the retirement recapture but we've likely already spent that money on someone else. This way, there's no uncertainty. we know what we have to work with. Zach was dead cap space anyway the way he was being used and i have a feeling BG wasn't so sure about Suter's willingness to take on a diminished roll if/when that would be necessary.
 
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Minnewildsota

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BG made "country club" comments soon after he took over. for years before that there have been grumbling about divides between the younger players and those with the huge contracts. I do not think this was as big a shock to the players as you seem to think.

It bears repeating that this is the only way BG could plan for the long term. The threat of retirement penalties made trades a dice roll. Witness Mikko thinking he had another year in him then deciding enough was enough. I'm sure that gave BG a scare. like what if we traded Zach to the Isles, he was relegated to the fourth line then decided to retire? we're screwed by the retirement recapture but we've likely already spent that money on someone else. This way, there's no uncertainty. we know what we have to work with. Zach was dead cap space anyway the way he was being used and i have a feeling BG wasn't so sure about Suter's willingness to take on a diminished roll if/when that would be necessary.

There were rumblings that whenever Suter didn't get his way or something happened he did like, he went to Leipold and basically whined. Not sure if true or not, but if it were true, there's absolutely no reason why Guerin would, or should, want Suter on the team.
 
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ThePsychicSaw

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BG made "country club" comments soon after he took over. for years before that there have been grumbling about divides between the younger players and those with the huge contracts. I do not think this was as big a shock to the players as you seem to think.

It bears repeating that this is the only way BG could plan for the long term. The threat of retirement penalties made trades a dice roll. Witness Mikko thinking he had another year in him then deciding enough was enough. I'm sure that gave BG a scare. like what if we traded Zach to the Isles, he was relegated to the fourth line then decided to retire? we're screwed by the retirement recapture but we've likely already spent that money on someone else. This way, there's no uncertainty. we know what we have to work with. Zach was dead cap space anyway the way he was being used and i have a feeling BG wasn't so sure about Suter's willingness to take on a diminished roll if/when that would be necessary.
I just have a hard time putting the CERTAINTY of dead cap that is over 15% of teams total cap in the light of flyby comments "country club" when those very players, literally just produced in the playoffs, one at an absurdly reduced role. these are hypotheticals that they retire early. you work with these players, not disrespect ostracize and discourage them, especially when they are supposed to be your LEADERs, as their jersey's tell us, faces of the franchise, that have been here almost a decade longer than your new GM, on contracts with severe ramifications, and most importantly, still part of positives come playoff time.
 

rynryn

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There were rumblings that whenever Suter didn't get his way or something happened he did like, he went to Leipold and basically whined. Not sure if true or not, but if it were true, there's absolutely no reason why Guerin would, or should, want Suter on the team.

Had to be a little frightening for Billy G to even propose it to Leipold.

I just have a hard time putting the CERTAINTY of dead cap that is over 15% of teams total cap in the light of flyby comments "country club" when those very players, literally just produced in the playoffs, one at an absurdly reduced role. these are hypotheticals that they retire early. you work with these players, not disrespect ostracize and discourage them, especially when they are supposed to be your LEADERs, as their jersey's tell us, faces of the franchise, that have been here almost a decade longer than your new GM, on contracts with severe ramifications, and most importantly, still part of positives come playoff time.

again there were definite divides in the room, and these players are on the wrong side of it. Want to be nice to the players and just have them taking up space on the bench at the end of the contract? we can't do a friendly "equipment allergy" wink wink thing anymore. now we have the open roster spots, the expansion protection for a core player, and a locker00m that's more cohesive. yes you have to plan for the hypothetical. you can't possibly think their retirement cap recapture would be easy to make up quickly ? or if by "navigate" State of Hockey (not a Wild fan btw) meant "trade Kaprizov" if that retirement should happen I don't know what to tell you. That would be about the only way to recover.

grain of salt as I'll provide no proof but i think one was understandable because of declining performance/usage and the other because it's rumored he may have had some issues--i don't think this was as shocking or ill received by teammates as some people here think. It sucks. In particular I hope Zach wins a cup. Dude just quietly goes about his business, gets pummeled, and keeps on coming. Suter will be a valuable addition to pretty much any team out there.

There's no way Leipold would have approved this if it weren't the best scenario presented and I'd trust his self interest to make a more dispassionate judgement than any fans.
 
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ThePsychicSaw

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again there were definite divides in the room, and these players are on the wrong side of it. Want to be nice to the players and just have them taking up space on the bench at the end of the contract? we can't do a friendly "equipment allergy" wink wink thing anymore. now we have the open roster spots, the expansion protection for a core player, and a locker00m that's more cohesive. yes you have to plan for the hypothetical. you can't possibly think their retirement cap recapture would be easy to make up quickly ? or if by "navigate" State of Hockey (not a Wild fan btw) meant "trade Kaprizov" if that retirement should happen I don't know what to tell you. That would be about the only way to recover.
wait, why couldn't these players go LTIR when they are inevitably injured again, before outright retirement?
 

grimmel95

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There were rumblings that whenever Suter didn't get his way or something happened he did like, he went to Leipold and basically whined. Not sure if true or not, but if it were true, there's absolutely no reason why Guerin would, or should, want Suter on the team.
Billy Guerin was on Judd's Hockey show (SKOR North) and he stated Suter was going to see a substantial decrease in playing time. Take that for what it's worth but my guess is that Guerin was just heading things off at the pass and ensuring he's controlling the cap space and not going to be sunk by recapture penalties if/when they happen.
Guerin mentions the significant decrease in ice-time for Suter around the 4.35 mark.

 
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rynryn

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wait, why couldn't these players go LTIR when they are inevitably injured again, before outright retirement?

you know, that actually may be a thing they could do. idk why but i've been thinking it's impossible now. I think there are reasons not to do it--like other players may start getting pissed because it affects escrow and owners might have to start paying more premiums if they keep claiming these injuries but theoretically i think you're right.

I don't see Zach or Suter being willing to do this though--maybe the idea was floated and dismissed and that's what lead to this? Both obviously want to play, one of them might be marginal to do that but one is certainly able to play 20 min a night yet and then a GM is still on the hook if they decide to suddenly declare themselves healthy.
 

Minnewildsota

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you know, that actually may be a thing they could do. idk why but i've been thinking it's impossible now. I think there are reasons not to do it--like other players may start getting pissed because it affects escrow and owners might have to start paying more premiums if they keep claiming these injuries but theoretically i think you're right.

I don't see Zach or Suter being willing to do this though--maybe the idea was floated and dismissed and that's what lead to this? Both obviously want to play, one of them might be marginal to do that but one is certainly able to play 20 min a night yet and then a GM is still on the hook if they decide to suddenly declare themselves healthy.

it’s interesting that you mention that. Another poster has posted this, and it’s an interesting take

Dom Luszczyszyn | The Athletic — Top 50 NHL UFAs: From Dougie Hamilton and Gabriel Landeskog to Alex Wennberg and Nikita Gusev

I’m not familiar with the source, but figure it Dom cites it’s probably reasonably reliable.



If this is what Billy is thinking, then I at least understand the timing a little bit better. I still don’t know that it accomplishes or changes much of anything beyond cost certainty.
 

rynryn

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it’s interesting that you mention that. Another poster has posted this, and it’s an interesting take

hmm. I think he's still a solid second pair d. in all the chaos i forgot where (may have been Dom's twitter) but i think his defensive play was down but his offensive impact was still very high. i guess 20 min a night in the right situation?
 

Obvious Fabertism

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hmm. I think he's still a solid second pair d. in all the chaos i forgot where (may have been Dom's twitter) but i think his defensive play was down but his offensive impact was still very high. i guess 20 min a night in the right situation?
His outlet passing, board play, and instincts will keep him appealing even as depth, but I have also noticed the steady decline in defensive play and foot speed. Suter was so good at eating minutes for so long, but as he gets slower, the league gets faster. Perhaps he played a bit casual at times, when playing that many minutes it is bound to happen, but those are valuable minutes when you have a bunch of other skilled defensemen wanting to be out there 100%, and at times it cost him with guys getting past him that never used to before. This gives the reins over to Spurgeon as Captain, with Brodin and Dumba to see what they can do with the time, it looked pretty good with all 3 last year for sure.
 

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