Player Discussion Mike Matheson

[JianYang]

Matheson is pulling moves out of his toolbox that I didn't know he had. His skating is also poetry in motion.

I was impressed by him at camp. He didn't look the same until he came back after he reinjured himself. It makes me wonder whether he came back too early the first time.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I'm inclined not to write off Matheson so soon. I realize his next contract will be in his 30s. I have no idea whom to get rid of among the young defensemen. That said, if Matheson manages 50+ point-season(s), especially through several years, he is probably worth a very good forward in a trade, to a team with a glut of good forwards and holes to fill in its backend. Hopefully the team is rid of a few boat-anchor forwards by then.

A 50 point-D with a positive plus-minus is worth a lot more than a good forward. I know you said "very good" but I would think a forward would need to be producing over 75 points to match a D consistently over 50.

It's probably better to keep/extend the dominant defenceman, unless the forward is young and cheap as well as productive,.

 

[VirginiaMtlExpat]

A 50 point-D with a positive plus-minus is worth a lot more than a good forward. I know you said "very good" but I would think a forward would need to be producing over 75 points to match a D consistently over 50.

It's probably better to keep/extend the dominant defenceman, unless the forward is young and cheap as well as productive,.

My comment was a response to the various posts leaving him out of the lineup in the Development Camp thread. It was actually moved by the mods to the Matheson thread. It was rebuke to all of those posts that leave him out of future lineups. The move to the Matheson thread was well-intended but counterproductive. My post loses its bite once moved to the Matheson thread. I agree with you that he's worth a lot, and barring that offer, I'd pencil him in even in his thirties. Genius acquisition by HuGo.

 

[A55P2]

I'm inclined not to write off Matheson so soon. I realize his next contract will be in his 30s. I have no idea whom to get rid of among the young defensemen. That said, if Matheson manages 50+ point-season(s), especially through several years, he is probably worth a very good forward in a trade, to a team with a glut of good forwards and holes to fill in its backend. Hopefully the team is rid of a few boat-anchor forwards by then.

He'd be worth a lot, but if he continues to play like he did last year there's no way we can trade him. He was a flat out monster out there. By far the best at skating I've seen since I've started following the Habs.

If he keeps it up, I'd definitely trade one of the younger guys to keep him.

 

[Redux91]

Love'im, happy to have him,
Simple as that lol

Happy it makes us slot Guhle as LD2 too, such a weapon to have as 2nd pairing

 

[ChesterNimitz]

My comment was a response to the various posts leaving him out of the lineup in the Development Camp thread. It was actually moved by the mods to the Matheson thread. It was rebuke to all of those posts that leave him out of future lineups. The move to the Matheson thread was well-intended but counterproductive. My post loses its bite once moved to the Matheson thread. I agree with you that he's worth a lot, and barring that offer, I'd pencil him in even in his thirties. Genius acquisition by HuGo.

It’s indiscernible that after watching Matheson’s dominating performance in the playoffs, the Penguins’ management thought acquiring the older and more expensive Petry was a good move. What’s even more indiscernible is that so many Montreal fans initially panned the trade and now are readily willing to trade this highly mobile defenceman who is at the peak of his career (and wants to play in Montreal ) as a throw in to their myriad of trade fantasies. Acquiring Matheson was a great transaction, where Montreal, for once, took advantage of another team’s misguided GM. Refreshing isn’t it?

 

[Habaddict]

It’s indiscernible that after watching Matheson’s dominating performance in the playoffs, the Penguins’ management thought acquiring the older and more expensive Petry was a good move. What’s even more indiscernible is that so many Montreal fans initially panned the trade and now are readily willing to trade this highly mobile defenceman who is at the peak of his career (and wants to play in Montreal ) as a throw in to their myriad of trade fantasies. Acquiring Matheson was a great transaction, where Montreal, for once, took advantage of another team’s misguided GM. Refreshing isn’t it?

 

[LaP]

A 50 point-D with a positive plus-minus is worth a lot more than a good forward. I know you said "very good" but I would think a forward would need to be producing over 75 points to match a D consistently over 50.
It's probably better to keep/extend the dominant defenceman, unless the forward is young and cheap as well as productive,.

I think if there's value to be had with Matheson we should cash in. By value here obviously i'm not talking about a 2nd round pick but real value. But if Matheson somehow can be turned into a 1st and a prospect/young player à la Baron then we should go ahead.

He'll turn 30 next february. I know lot of guys around here share the magical thinking that all players can play at a high level until they turn 45 but the sad harsh reality is after 30 you never know. Some few guys are done at 30, a few others at 33, most at 35 and a very few at 40. Obviously if you are trying to win you keep your 30 years old guys and find out when but we are not in this position.

I'd keep him for this year to let the kids get a 2nd year of experience but after that i'd look at cashing in on his last 2 years if there's real value there. If we still need a vet then it's always possible to sign a vet UFA on the decline for a few bucks like Buffalo did with Erik Johnson.

 

[Apfel Struble]

I think if there's value to be had with Matheson we should cash in. By value here obviously i'm not talking about a 2nd round pick but real value. But if Matheson somehow can be turned into a 1st and a prospect/young player à la Baron then we should go ahead.

He'll turn 30 next february. I know lot of guys around here share the magical thinking that all players can play at a high level until they turn 45 but the sad harsh reality is after 30 you never know. Some few guys are done at 30, a few others at 33, most at 35 and a very few at 40. Obviously if you are trying to win you keep your 30 years old guys and find out when but we are not in this position.

I'd keep him for this year to let the kids get a 2nd year of experience but after that i'd look at cashing in on his last 2 years if there's real value there. If we still need a vet then it's always possible to sign a vet UFA on the decline for a few bucks like Buffalo did with Erik Johnson.

I agree about cashing on the value while it's high, but unless the offer is too good to turn down (the modified-NTC and 5M contract through 2025-2026 lower it significantly though I'd say), I'd be wary about trading him

Cultivating a good team morale is paramount and I'd argue most of the core is already playing in the NHL. Trading one of the best player on the team can tank the spirit

 

[BaseballCoach]

I agree about cashing on the value while it's high, but unless the offer is too good to turn down (the modified-NTC and 5M contract through 2025-2026 lower it significantly though I'd say), I'd be wary about trading him

Cultivating a good team morale is paramount and I'd argue most of the core is already playing in the NHL. Trading one of the best player on the team can tank the spirit

M-NTC lowers the value maybe, but the $4.875M contract raises it enormously.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I think if there's value to be had with Matheson we should cash in. By value here obviously i'm not talking about a 2nd round pick but real value. But if Matheson somehow can be turned into a 1st and a prospect/young player à la Baron then we should go ahead.

He'll turn 30 next february. I know lot of guys around here share the magical thinking that all players can play at a high level until they turn 45 but the sad harsh reality is after 30 you never know. Some few guys are done at 30, a few others at 33, most at 35 and a very few at 40. Obviously if you are trying to win you keep your 30 years old guys and find out when but we are not in this position.

But by the last year or two of Mike's contract, HuGo ARE trying to win.

To get a 17 year old and a 19-20 year old for liquidating one of your best players at 30-31 is really asking to start the rebuild over again.

 

[LaP]

But by the last year or two of Mike's contract, HuGo ARE trying to win.
To get a 17 year old and a 19-20 year old for liquidating one of your best players at 30-31 is really asking to start the rebuild over again.

I don't think you start the rebuild over again by trading Matheson. By the time this team is ready Matheson will be 33 and will be at the very most 3 years away from being a cap problem like Petry. Any player over 28 should not be considered as part of the upcoming (hopefully) contending core. The main player of our rebuild is Suzuki and he'll be 24 next season. Guys who are 29+ really are not part of our upcoming core. If there's value to be had in Matheson, Monahan and Anderson we should go ahead. We should wait another year kids are still too young and obviously you try to keep one of Savard or Matheson but we should definitely be listening to offers.

 

[Sorinth]

I think if there's value to be had with Matheson we should cash in. By value here obviously i'm not talking about a 2nd round pick but real value. But if Matheson somehow can be turned into a 1st and a prospect/young player à la Baron then we should go ahead.

He'll turn 30 next february. I know lot of guys around here share the magical thinking that all players can play at a high level until they turn 45 but the sad harsh reality is after 30 you never know. Some few guys are done at 30, a few others at 33, most at 35 and a very few at 40. Obviously if you are trying to win you keep your 30 years old guys and find out when but we are not in this position.

I'd keep him for this year to let the kids get a 2nd year of experience but after that i'd look at cashing in on his last 2 years if there's real value there. If we still need a vet then it's always possible to sign a vet UFA on the decline for a few bucks like Buffalo did with Erik Johnson.

Late 1st round picks tend to be overrated. The odds are very much against getting a good player from them.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Late 1st round picks tend to be overrated. The odds are very much against getting a good player from them.

That’s why i’m pretty chuffed by the Newhook trade. As Florida just kept going and going it was pretty sucky that a potential top 15 turned into a late 1st rounder.

The fact that we got an NHL ready player with upside that rivals many top 15 guys is pretty great value. Florida’s run could turn into a big positive for us after looking pretty disheartening

 

[LaP]

Late 1st round picks tend to be overrated. The odds are very much against getting a good player from them.

The age at which a player can still be dominant tends to be overrated too. I don't know if you watched the caps last year but Kuznetsov was awful. The guy was just 30 and he looks to be declining already. Tarasenko totally looked like a declining player last year and he is 30 too. Toews career was pretty much done at 33. He's still around famously known as the Ghost of Jonathan Toews. Hedman looked like an injured player all season long last year specially in playoffs. Not sure if he was but if not ... Most players start to decline slowly at 30 and a significant amount lose a major step in between 33 and 35. They can still help but usually in a reduced role. As everything there's exception but a good GM should expect a player on the wrong side of 30 to start declining gradually.

That’s why i’m pretty chuffed by the Newhook trade. As Florida just kept going and going it was pretty sucky that a potential top 15 turned into a late 1st rounder.
The fact that we got an NHL ready player with upside that rivals many top 15 guys is pretty great value. Florida’s run could turn into a big positive for us after looking pretty disheartening

So the moral of the story is 1st round picks have good value? I'm not following here are they worthless or not?

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Trading Mike Matheson would be lunacy. Zero reason to trade him and I don't think this is something that HuGo are remotely considering.

 

[Sorinth]

The age at which a player can still be dominant tends to be overrated too. I don't know if you watched the caps last year but Kuznetsov was awful. The guy was just 30 and he looks to be declining already. Tarasenko totally looked like a declining player last year and he is 30 too. Toews career was pretty much done at 33. He's still around famously known as the Ghost of Jonathan Toews. Hedman looked like an injured player all season long last year specially in playoffs. Not sure if he was but if not ... Most players start to decline slowly at 30 and a significant amount lose a major step in between 33 and 35. They can still help but usually in a reduced role. As everything there's exception but a good GM should expect a player on the wrong side of 30 to start declining gradually.

I don't disagree that players over 30 can decline often quite rapidly. But if the return is a late 1st then it's probably better to gamble on the vet staying relevant in a reduced role over the low chance of even getting an NHL player from a late 1st.

 

[LaP]

I don't disagree that players over 30 can decline often quite rapidly. But if the return is a late 1st then it's probably better to gamble on the vet staying relevant in a reduced role over the low chance of even getting an NHL player from a late 1st.

I've not said a 1st though i said a first and a good young player. Let's just say in the summer of 2024 Seattle offer us Sale and a 1st for Matheson you say no to that? If Sale has a good year in the Czech league and you say no to that i think you're crazy personally. I'm just advocating for us to listen and if a good offer is being made to kick the tire. Basically not do Petry 2.0 or Gallagher 2.0

 

[Sorinth]

I've not said a 1st though i said a first and a good young player. Let's just say in the summer of 2024 Seattle offer us Sale and a 1st for Matheson you say no to that? If Sale has a good year in the Czech league and you say no to that i think you're crazy personally. I'm just advocating for us to listen and if a good offer is being made to kick the tire. Basically not do Petry 2.0 or Gallagher 2.0

And if its a Mesar level player and a late 1st would you still think it crazy?

 

[LaP]

And if its a Mesar level player and a late 1st would you still think it crazy?

Mesar lost a lot of his gloss since the draft. This said i've not watched him play with the Rangers but on paper i would not be interested that much. I think Sale was better at the u20 and was a year younger. This said sample size is too small i'm not a scout watching those kids many hours. But you get my point like if a good prospect and a 1st is offered providing our scouts and KH are good at evaluating kids which i have to believe (and hope) they are we should do it.

 

[Sorinth]

Mesar lost a lot of his gloss since the draft. This said i've not watched him play with the Rangers but on paper i would not be interested that much. I think Sale was better at the u20 and was a year younger. This said sample size is too small i'm not a scout watching those kids many hours. But you get my point like if a good prospect and a 1st is offered providing our scouts and KH are good at evaluating kids which i have to believe (and hope) they are we should do it.

I'm sure there are specific players I'd say yes to, but in the general sense of two longshots (Which are what late 1st rounders are) then no thanks. I'd value the developmental value he provides way more.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I don't think you start the rebuild over again by trading Matheson. By the time this team is ready Matheson will be 33 and will be at the very most 3 years away from being a cap problem like Petry. Any player over 28 should not be considered as part of the upcoming (hopefully) contending core. The main player of our rebuild is Suzuki and he'll be 24 next season. Guys who are 29+ really are not part of our upcoming core. If there's value to be had in Matheson, Monahan and Anderson we should go ahead. We should wait another year kids are still too young and obviously you try to keep one of Savard or Matheson but we should definitely be listening to offers.

Even if I accept your timeline that we would be "ready" only in 4 years, I do not agree that we cannot have ANY players 33 at that time. What Cup-winning team did not have guys in their early to mid thirties??

I would not look to dump Matheson if he is a top pair D, nor Monahan if he is still a 55-60 point guy, nor Anderson if he is still scoring 20+ per season. If you're saying to not give 32 year olds a 6 year extension at prime dollars, that I agree with. Gotta manage the cap well.

 

[LaP]

Even if I accept your timeline that we would be "ready" only in 4 years, I do not agree that we cannot have ANY players 33 at that time. What Cup-winning team did not have guys in their early to mid thirties??
I would not look to dump Matheson if he is a top pair D, nor Monahan if he is still a 55-60 point guy, nor Anderson if he is still scoring 20+ per season. If you're saying to not give 32 year olds a 6 year extension at prime dollars, that I agree with. Gotta manage the cap well.

I did not say that. You can always sign a guy on the UFA market or make a trade for one. Nothing prevents you from doing that. It's far easier to sign a 33 years old declining Mike Matheson on the UFA market (or acquire one via trade) that to find elite young players to add to your core. I think our disagrement probably just comes from the evaluation of our prospects pool. Maybe you think we have enough. I personally would totally disagree with that. I think we need to add an elite player or two for sure. The more darts you throw the more chances you have and we should be therowing all the darts we can atm it should 100% be a top priority. That's why even if i don't like the Newhook trade i'm not overly critical of it cause this trade is the embodiment of throwign a dart which is what we should do atm. In 2 years yeah we should have moved on from throwing darts.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

Matheson is pulling moves out of his toolbox that I didn't know he had. His skating is also poetry in motion.

I was impressed by him at camp. He didn't look the same until he came back after he reinjured himself. It makes me wonder whether he came back too early the first time.

He was fine but had to adjust to a new system. Dmen typically take the most time adjusting to new systems/teammates as they play the most complex position by a wide margin.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I did not say that. You can always sign a guy on the UFA market or make a trade for one. Nothing prevents you from doing that. It's far easier to sign a 33 years old declining Mike Matheson on the UFA market (or acquire one via trade) that to find elite young players to add to your core. I think our disagrement probably just comes from the evaluation of our prospects pool. Maybe you think we have enough. I personally would totally disagree with that. I think we need to add an elite player or two for sure. The more darts you throw the more chances you have and we should be therowing all the darts we can atm it should 100% be a top priority. That's why even if i don't like the Newhook trade i'm not overly critical of it cause this trade is the embodiment of throwign a dart which is what we should do atm. In 2 years yeah we should have moved on from throwing darts.

The 1st rounder we will get in 2-3 years will not be having an impact until about 6-8 years from now. We are not going to be in perpetual tank mode.

People talk about the Bruins Cup, Chara was 33. How old were some of the Golden Knights this year?

There is no requirement to trade everyone over 29 for 18 year olds.