Player Discussion Mike Matheson (Part 2) - Shoot on target please Edition

[417]

...meaning??...a player like Hutson requires some insulation defensively, it's pretty simple...Matheson does not have that in his game; it's not a personal knock on the guy, it's just a fact...even a Brandon Carlo-type would be a better partner for Hutson (and I'm no Carlo fan, I think he's a poor man's #4 at best)...you're not breaking up Guhle - Carrier cuz they've been really good together...so where do you go??...play him with Savard or Jackeye on the 3rd pairing??...why; our 3rd pairing does it's job...the issue comes down to our Top Pairing having a rookie PMD who's defensive game needs growth and Matheson, who's defensive game has ALWAYS needed growth...a recipe for disaster...and with just the sheer number of Dmen in the system, it's time to find another home for Mike Matheson...just the way it is, imo...

I don't disagree in theory, but what are you going to do in the interim? Just lament and amplify his every mistake?

He's played a large part in Hutson's emergence the last 20-25 games, right now, on this team, he's the best option. They don't have a veteran RD to pair Hutson with right now.

You bring up Brandon Carlo, if you swapped out Brandon Carlo for Mike Matheson right now, you'd think the D-pairs would be a lot more balanced. But I promise you'd miss Matheson's mobility and ability to skate pucks out of danger and you'd also realize that all players are mistake prone, but not all players have the ability to make up for it either.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I'm sure you wouldn't have made this up and then a post later tried to call out someone else for doing the same, so please quote the poster who said Mike Matheson must play mistake free hockey or else should be burned at the stake.

Those of you who don't value Matheson because he makes too many mistakes, need to start to quantity his turnovers with actual context and how that compares to all top 4D in the NHL playing more than 20 min's a game. Be fair about it without no preset agenda. Actual context into this is very important. Otherwise, you are operating on gut feel and would need to watch a lot more games other than when the Habs play. Go focus on S Theodore and his usage and how many turnovers/60 he has. In order to know, you will have to watch 82 NHL games the Knights play. Not just the game they play against the Habs... or a few other games here and there.

If you can't do that, there is a bit of ignorance going on. Why the hell would Team Canada have him on their list to replace Pietrangelo? If you think that its because you know more than them and they are idiots, I don't know what to say about that where it's not an insult.

 

[417]

I'm sure you wouldn't have made this up and then a post later tried to call out someone else for doing the same, so please quote the poster who said Mike Matheson must play mistake free hockey or else should be burned at the stake.

Isn't that the whole premise here?

That Mike Matheson makes back breaking mistakes every game or whatever term @le_sean used?

Unlike the poster who suggested that I said Matheson can't be criticized or that I even "like" him.

One is fabricated, the other is not.

No clue what you're talking about right now.

Can’t criticize the player making obvious mistakes, let’s criticize the fans who criticize the player. Energy and time well spent.

Who told you NOT to criticize the player?

Absolutely no one.

Miss me with this cry wolf bullshit.

 

[le_sean]

Isn't that the whole premise


Who told you NOT to criticize the player?

Absolutely no one.

Miss me with this cry wolf bullshit.

You. You’re jumping on anyone that suggests he made a mistake. That we should pamper him like a child. You’re even continuing the conversation and putting words in my mouth.

 

[417]

You. You’re jumping on anyone that suggests he made a mistake. That we should pamper him like a child.

If the shoe fits wear it, I don't care lol

It's ridiculous that 2 days later we've got reporters asking Mike Matheson about hate he received because of a mistake in 3 on 3 OT.

It's not normal.

I don't care what you say, if it's still bothering you almost 3 days later, go outside man.

You don't need to pamper him like a child, maybe stop acting like one.

 

[le_sean]

Why the hell would Team Canada have him on their list to replace Pietrangelo?

Speaking of fabricating…

 

[Habnot]

Can’t criticize the player making obvious mistakes, let’s criticize the fans who criticize the player. Energy and time well spent.

Obvious is subjective and if you hate Matheson - you will notice all mistakes and also make him responsible for more than what is fair.

For example, every NHL commentator that I have heard so far puts more of the blame on Laine on the game ending goal. Yet here we are.

 

[le_sean]

If the shoe fits wear it, I don't care lol

It's ridiculous that 2 days later we've got reporters asking Mike Matheson about hate he received because of a mistake in 3 on 3 OT.

It's not normal.

I don't care what you say, if it's still bothering you almost 3 days later, go outside man.

You don't need to pamper him like a child, maybe stop acting like one.

It’s not bothering me, again putting words in my mouth. What bothers me is people upset that he’s receiving any type of criticism and that they are comparing it to a guy who got booed by his own fans every time he touched the puck in his own city.

You’re the one acting like a child, let it go. Two players can make a mistake on the same play, which cost the team a huge point and it was the last game played. It’s f***ing normal people are talking about it. Get off your moral high horse.

 

[le_sean]

Obvious is subjective and if you hate Matheson - you will notice all mistakes and also make him responsible for more than what is fair.

For example, every NHL commentator that I have heard so far puts more of the blame on Laine on the game ending goal. Yet here we are.

Yeah Laine was shit too. The mistake is also on the coach for putting a guy that can’t skate with a guy that can’t defend out for 3v3.

Lots of people to blame, but this is the Matheson thread. And because the media feels sorry for him, we have to be revisionists and pretend that he’s not a mistake-prone player.

 

[Canadienna]

Those of you who don't value Matheson because he makes too many mistakes, need to start to quantity his turnovers with actual context and how that compares to all top 4D in the NHL playing more than 20 min's a game. Be fair about it without no preset agenda. Actual context into this is very important. Otherwise, you are operating on gut feel and would need to watch a lot more games other than when the Habs play. Go focus on S Theodore and his usage and how many turnovers/60 he has. In order to know, you will have to watch 82 NHL games the Knights play. Not just the game they play against the Habs... or a few other games here and there.

If you can't do that, there is a bit of ignorance going on. Why the hell would Team Canada have him on their list to replace Pietrangelo? If you think that its because you know more than them and they are idiots, I don't know what to say about that where it's not an insult.

While I can appreciate trying to quantify his mistakes, turnovers/giveaways is a notoriously awful stat that is riddled with subjectivities ala hits. It's just not accurate.

Based on your previous post, you seem to think criticism of Matheson comes from the fact he's french-canadian (Edit: You actually said "from Quebec or Montreal"). I think this is ridiculous, and why would I try to argue my point of view with you if your counter argument is simply that we're all xenophobic?

 

[le_sean]

While I can appreciate trying to quantify his mistakes, turnovers/giveaways is a notoriously awful stat that is riddled with subjectivities ala hits. It's just not accurate.

Based on your previous post, you seem to think criticism of Matheson comes from the fact he's french-canadian. I think this is ridiculous, and why would I try to argue my point of view with you if your counter argument is simply that we're all xenophobic?

He’s not even French Canadian so that argument makes no sense.

 

[Sorinth]

You’re the one blowing it out of proportion saying no one will want to sign here.

I’m not making an excuse, you’re simply overreacting to criticism that basically every big name player has faced in Montreal. They chastised Saku for not speaking French, called Kovalev lazy every second game. Subban sucks defensively. Markov doesn’t care. Plekanec isn’t good enough to be a 1C. Max is a playoff choker. The list goes on and on. This isn’t anything out of the ordinary, you’re trying to make him out to be a martyr.

No I'm saying that it is a factor in the decision. It's not new but neither is it new that we've struggled to acquire big names. So if you're going to crap on players then understand that you are part of the reason it's harder for us to acquire FAs.

 

[417]

It’s not bothering me, again putting words in my mouth. What bothers me is people upset that he’s receiving any type of criticism and that they are comparing it to a guy who got booed by his own fans every time he touched the puck in his own city.

Brother - the game was Saturday night, do you not find it weird that he's being asked about it on a Tuesday gameday and specifically addressing "hate" he's received, no matter of whether or not you think it was mild hate or not?

As I told you earlier, this is not proportionate to the context of the mistake on Saturday.

You’re the one acting like a child, let it go. Two players can make a mistake on the same play, which cost the team a huge point and it was the last game played. It’s f***ing normal people are talking about it. Get off your moral high horse.

Until 2 hours ago, I didn't even know this was a storyline in Montreal. After he turned the puck over I didn't think about it again and spent Sunday watching soccer and the NFL, Monday night was spent talking about the NFL games, it wasn't until I started listening to 690 this afternoon did I know this was even a story.

Hey, if hating on a player because he's mistake prone gets you off, more power to you.

I'm still going to call that shit out every chance I get, so deal with it.

 

[Adriatic]

Matheson been great all year. People need to chillax!!

 

[Rapala]

...meaning??...a player like Hutson requires some insulation defensively, it's pretty simple...Matheson does not have that in his game; it's not a personal knock on the guy, it's just a fact...even a Brandon Carlo-type would be a better partner for Hutson (and I'm no Carlo fan, I think he's a poor man's #4 at best)...you're not breaking up Guhle - Carrier cuz they've been really good together...so where do you go??...play him with Savard or Jackeye on the 3rd pairing??...why; our 3rd pairing does it's job...the issue comes down to our Top Pairing having a rookie PMD who's defensive game needs growth and Matheson, who's defensive game has ALWAYS needed growth...a recipe for disaster...and with just the sheer number of Dmen in the system, it's time to find another home for Mike Matheson...just the way it is, imo...

Yeah I see it this way also.
People think we can get away with playing both Matheson and Hutson top 4. I brought it up before the season even started as a bad idea exposing that left side. That MM was moved to the right side does not change the fact. Perhaps It helped mitigate some of the lack of balance allowing the Carrier Guhle pairing but Matheson is not a very good RD let alone a #1 RD. The only thing Matheson is better at in support of Lane Hutson is his puck retrieval but when he doesn't move it in a timely fashion it becomes a problem rather quickly.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I'm completely on board with the idea that pro athletes like this should absolutely detach themselves from social media. There's just not enough to be gained by it, and plenty that can be lost.

That being said, these guys shouldn't get to just dismiss legitimate criticism because of where it comes from. Mike Matheson has done some good things for this team, but there's a lot of bad too, and we shouldn't just sweep it away. Yes, the pass by Laine was bad. But Matheson has been around long enough to know to just make sure the puck gets deep so the other two guys can regroup or change. Instead, he tried to be cute, and gave up a 2 on 0. If he had tried to make the right play and it failed because of the bad pass, fine. But that's not what happened. He made a conscious decision to attempt a low-percentage play with two opposing players within stick check range. That's downright stupid. Not a mistake, not an accident, just stupid.

Why do you think he (or guys) are rejecting legitimate criticism because of the source? Unless all or most of the social media criticism was legitimate (and I have a VERY hard time believing that). And I have a hard time imagining that the entire team would circle the wagons to the degree they have if that was the case, especially since the team has called themselves out all season when playing poorly.

Unless I missed him saying something to the effect of all criticisms on social media are BS.

 

[Habs Halifax]

While I can appreciate trying to quantify his mistakes, turnovers/giveaways is a notoriously awful stat that is riddled with subjectivities ala hits. It's just not accurate.

Based on your previous post, you seem to think criticism of Matheson comes from the fact he's french-canadian (Edit: You actually said "from Quebec or Montreal"). I think this is ridiculous, and why would I try to argue my point of view with you if your counter argument is simply that we're all xenophobic?

Talk to me when you have actual context. Until then, you are operating on gut feel and that can have some ignorance to it. Show me the context to support what you believe? Without a preset agenda?

I showed the giveaways/60 stats. Lets did into this with other context to make it fair?

 

[417]

Yeah I see it this way also.
People think we can get away with playing both Matheson and Hutson top 4. I brought it up before the season even started as a bad idea exposing that left side. That MM was moved to the right side does not change the fact. Perhaps It helped mitigate some of the lack of balance allowing the Carrier Guhle pairing but Matheson is not a very good RD let alone a #1 RD. The only thing Matheson is better at in support of Lane Hutson is his puck retrieval but when he doesn't move itin a timely fashion it becomes a problem rather quickly.

That's why they get mostly offensive zone starts.

It's not an ideal pair but right now, to allow the most balance on the team, it's the best they've got.

No one was complaining about the D-pairs when they were rattling off wins, now the wins aren't coming as regularly and it's time to find the culprit again.

I mean cool, Laine/Matheson poorly executed a 3 on 3 play.

Its over, time to move on.

 

[Canadienna]

Talk to me when you have actual context. Until then, you are operating on gut feel and that can have some ignorance to it. Show me the context to support what you believe? Without a preset agenda?

I showed the giveaways/60 stats. Lets did into this with other context to make it fair?

I'm not making sweeping statements about his play. I'm criticizing specific plays, the context for which can easily be found in the relevant clips.

Your response to criticism was to claim it had to do with xenophobia and anti-quebec sentiment. Not helpful or accurate.

To extend an olive branch (if it's still possible), I think he has been better this year overall and it's a big part of why we've been a better team. No matter what you think of him, he's a big part of the team's success or lack there of, depending on how the rest of the season goes.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

I don't disagree in theory, but what are you going to do in the interim? Just lament and amplify his every mistake?

He's played a large part in Hutson's emergence the last 20-25 games, right now, on this team, he's the best option. They don't have a veteran RD to pair Hutson with right now.

You bring up Brandon Carlo, if you swapped out Brandon Carlo for Mike Matheson right now, you'd think the D-pairs would be a lot more balanced. But I promise you'd miss Matheson's mobility and ability to skate pucks out of danger and you'd also realize that all players are mistake prone, but not all players have the ability to make up for it either.

...no one has to "amplify" his mistakes because they are already amplified with him being on the Top Pairing; they already amplify themselves, each and every one...he no longer fits the direction that the Habs are supposed to be going in; it's not about taking down a player that has worked hard to become the legit Top 4 PMD that he is, it's about fit and he no longer fits...playing him with Hutson is hurting Hutson's developement; playing him with Guhle now is also a bad idea since Carrier has allowed Guhle to take his game to the next level...so where do we play him??...on the 3rd pairing??...again, it's a bad idea; Savard & Jackeye have been much better lately and are our shutdown pairing...we have quite a few young defensive prospects chomping at the bit for a shot at the big show...so why not move Matheson now while his value is high??...

 

[Habs Halifax]

That's why they get mostly offensive zone starts.

It's not an ideal pair but right now, to allow the most balance on the team, it's the best they've got.

No one was complaining about the D-pairs when they were rattling off wins, now the wins aren't coming as regularly and it's time to find the culprit again.

I mean cool, Laine/Matheson poorly executed a 3 on 3 play.

Its over, time to move on.

Matheson is around 55% of D zone starts over the last two seasons. Hutson is at 66% offensive zone starts... so far this season

Matheson was out of gas on that Laine pass that was made behind him a bit. However, I kind of like Matheson out there at 3/3 because if anybody has noticed, the Habs are very good at getting puck possession and keeping it. We have won a fair amount of games in OT because of it.

 

[le_sean]

Brother - the game was Saturday night, do you not find it weird that he's being asked about it on a Tuesday gameday and specifically addressing "hate" he's received, no matter of whether or not you think it was mild hate or not?

As I told you earlier, this is not proportionate to the context of the mistake on Saturday.

Until 2 hours ago, I didn't even know this was a storyline in Montreal. After he turned the puck over I didn't think about it again and spent Sunday watching soccer and the NFL, Monday night was spent talking about the NFL games, it wasn't until I started listening to 690 this afternoon did I know this was even a story.

Hey, if hating on a player because he's mistake prone gets you off, more power to you.

I'm still going to call that shit out every chance I get, so deal with it.

I didn’t even know it was a storyline either until I went on Twitter this morning. Maybe they all reconvened and it came up. It’s not like Matheson making a boneheaded play is anything new. I guess it’s under a magnifying glass now because of the position the team is in.

Again, I’m not lingering on this one mistake because I’m used to it by now from him. I’m more questioning the ones in media that are coming to his defence as if he’s mistreated when far better players received far worse treatment from the fanbase. I think it’s ridiculous.

 

[417]

...no one has to "amplify" his mistakes because they are already amplified with him being on the Top Pairing; they already amplify themselves, each and every one...he no longer fits the direction that the Habs are supposed to be going in; it's not about taking down a player that has worked hard to become the legit Top 4 PMD that he is, it's about fit and he no longer fits...playing him with Hutson is hurting Hutson's developement; playing him with Guhle now is also a bad idea since Carrier has allowed Guhle to take his game to the next level...so where do we play him??...on the 3rd pairing??...again, it's a bad idea; Savard & Jackeye have been much better lately and are our shutdown pairing...we have quite a few young defensive prospects chomping at the bit for a shot at the big show...so why not move Matheson now while his value is high??...

I'm not opposed to moving Matheson because I think he'd fetch quite a bit in return.

But I also don't think there's anyone currently in the organization whose going to step in to give you more steady play.

I just don't.

If you don't mind seeing the team take a step back...by all means, move him. But if you as a fan, are looking for more steady play, that's not an answer in the immediate.

 

[le_sean]

No I'm saying that it is a factor in the decision. It's not new but neither is it new that we've struggled to acquire big names. So if you're going to crap on players then understand that you are part of the reason it's harder for us to acquire FAs.

And it goes hand in hand with playing well and being revered by the fanbase. So if a player is confident in his ability, why not sign in Montreal where he’ll get noticed? Think of that shift at the end of the Devils game where the Habs blocked like 5 shots. The crowd went NUTS. That’s what intense fans do.

 

[417]

Matheson is around 55% of D zone starts over the last two seasons. Hutson is at 66% offensive zone starts... so far this season

Matheson was out of gas on that Laine pass that was made behind him a bit. However, I kind of like Matheson out there at 3/3 because if anybody has noticed, the Habs are very good at getting puck possession and keeping it. We have won a fair amount of games in OT because of it.

He's just become an easy target...I see very little praise for the good things he does and a lot of criticism for every single mistake he makes.

Before anyone gets hate horny, i'm not saying criticism isn't allowed. If the player makes a bad play, cool...criticize, but it doesn't have to color everything he does.

Personally, I've had way more of an issue with how Lane Hutson has played the last week than I have Matheson...but that's not vogue around here.

I didn’t even know it was a storyline either until I went on Twitter this morning. Maybe they all reconvened and it came up. It’s not like Matheson making a boneheaded play is anything new. I guess it’s under a magnifying glass now because of the position the team is in.

Again, I’m not lingering on this one mistake because I’m used to it by now from him. I’m more questioning the ones in media that are coming to his defence as if he’s mistreated when far better players received far worse treatment from the fanbase. I think it’s ridiculous.

There's got to be a reason...because like I been saying, it's not normal that this is still a talking point at this stage.

Either way, we're not helping that narrative as is, so all good. I'll stop even making this a thing so that it is indeed, not a thing.