Bossy scored 38 goals in 63 games, sometimes only going out for a shift or two. A 50 goal pace.
Mike Bossy was a better goal scorer than Wayne Gretzky
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Apologies for bringing one back from the dead, but...
As for the general theme of the thread, OP eliminates a good chunk of Bossy's playoff years. Sure he scored 61 goals, posted his 3rd highest point total, and played in all 80 games in 1986. But Scott Stevens doubled Bossy's offensive counting stats in the first round, so let's not look over there.
Here's a series -by-series breakdown for Gretzky and Bossy, that also includes the quality of opponent.
And in aggregate:
I would like to note the following:
1) Gretzky was a set-up man first. When he scores 0 goals in a first round series against the 1985 Kings, he can still lead the series in points. It also means he's creating plays where his own playmaking is burning his chances for go-ahead goals and especially powerplay goals.
2) Bossy's results by series fluctuate a lot more than Gretzky's. Bossy lights up the hopeless '79 Black Hawks in a 4-game sweep, and proceeds to have 1 point in 6 games in a series where his team was competitive against the Rangers. Building on point #1, when Bossy didn't score goals, he wasn't going to lead a series in points. But he's also almost a goal-per-game player against losing teams. When things go well for the Islanders, things go well for Bossy. When things go poorly, he's rarely scoring. It might actually help his situational stats in the OP to have scored a go-ahead goal in Game 6 against the '79 Rangers while scoring 0 other goals.
3) Bossy earned 3 go-ahead goals and 2 tying goals against the 1982 Canucks. Somehow, I feel I am less impressed by this than some others. While we're criticizing Gretzky for not scoring a Shorthanded goal against Denis Potvin (which it turns out he managed to do in 1 of the 15 playoff games where he could), we're okay with Bossy slamming Harold Snepsts and Anders Eldebrink for half of his 1982 playoff goals. On the flip side, Gretzky had his biggest single-series goal total against a .700+ '85 Flyers team that stymied Bossy.
EDIT: I miscounted Bossy's goal totals in the 1982 finals and gave him 8 instead of 7, which marginally changes some of the numbers here.
Gretzky just might be able to blow past Denis Potvin for a shorthanded goal in the playoffs.
As for the general theme of the thread, OP eliminates a good chunk of Bossy's playoff years. Sure he scored 61 goals, posted his 3rd highest point total, and played in all 80 games in 1986. But Scott Stevens doubled Bossy's offensive counting stats in the first round, so let's not look over there.
Here's a series -by-series breakdown for Gretzky and Bossy, that also includes the quality of opponent.
| Bossy | Gretzky | ||||||||
| Opp | GP | G | Record | GPG | GPG | GP | G | Record | Oppo |
| 78 Leafs | 7 | 2 | 0.575 | 0.29 | |||||
| 79 Hawks | 4 | 5 | 0.473 | 1.25 | |||||
| 79 NYR | 6 | 1 | 0.569 | 0.17 | |||||
| 80 Kings | 2 | 1 | 0.463 | 0.50 | |||||
| 80 Bruins | 2 | 2 | 0.656 | 1.00 | |||||
| 80 Sabres | 6 | 3 | 0.688 | 0.50 | |||||
| 80 Flyers | 6 | 4 | 0.725 | 0.67 | 0.67 | 3 | 2 | 0.725 | 80 Flyers |
| 81 Leafs | 3 | 4 | 0.444 | 1.33 | 1.00 | 3 | 3 | 0.644 | 81 Habs |
| 81 Oilers | 6 | 4 | 0.463 | 0.67 | 0.67 | 6 | 4 | 0.688 | 81 Isles |
| 81 NYR | 4 | 5 | 0.463 | 1.25 | |||||
| 81 Stars | 5 | 4 | 0.544 | 0.80 | |||||
| 82 Pens | 5 | 2 | 0.469 | 0.40 | 1.00 | 5 | 5 | 0.394 | 82 Kings |
| 82 NYR | 6 | 4 | 0.575 | 0.67 | |||||
| 82 Nords | 4 | 4 | 0.513 | 1.00 | |||||
| 82 Van | 4 | 8 | 0.481 | 2.00 | |||||
| 83 Caps | 4 | 3 | 0.588 | 0.75 | 1.33 | 3 | 4 | 0.463 | 83 Jets |
| 83 NYR | 6 | 3 | 0.500 | 0.50 | 1.20 | 5 | 6 | 0.488 | 83 Flames |
| 83 Bruins | 6 | 9 | 0.688 | 1.50 | 0.50 | 4 | 2 | 0.650 | 83 Hawks |
| 83 Oilers | 3 | 2 | 0.663 | 0.67 | 0.00 | 4 | 0 | 0.600 | 83 Isles |
| 84 NYR | 5 | 1 | 0.581 | 0.20 | 0.33 | 3 | 1 | 0.456 | 84 Jets |
| 84 Caps | 5 | 3 | 0.631 | 0.60 | 0.57 | 7 | 4 | 0.513 | 84 Flames |
| 84 Habs | 6 | 4 | 0.469 | 0.67 | 1.00 | 4 | 4 | 0.550 | 84 Stars |
| 84 Oilers | 5 | 0 | 0.744 | 0.00 | 0.80 | 5 | 4 | 0.650 | 84 Isles |
| 85 Caps | 5 | 4 | 0.631 | 0.80 | 0.00 | 3 | 0 | 0.513 | 85 Kings |
| 1.50 | 4 | 6 | 0.600 | 85 Jets | |||||
| 0.67 | 6 | 4 | 0.519 | 85 Hawks | |||||
| 85 Flyers | 5 | 1 | 0.706 | 0.20 | 1.40 | 5 | 7 | 0.706 | 85 Flyers |
| 86 Caps | 3 | 1 | 0.669 | 0.33 | 1.00 | 3 | 3 | 0.369 | 86 Van |
| 0.71 | 7 | 5 | 0.556 | 86 Flames | |||||
| 87 Caps | 2 | 1 | 0.538 | 0.50 | 0.40 | 5 | 2 | 0.431 | 87 Kings |
| 0.25 | 4 | 1 | 0.550 | 87 Jets | |||||
| 0.00 | 5 | 0 | 0.488 | 87 Wings | |||||
| 87 Flyers | 4 | 1 | 0.625 | 0.25 | 0.29 | 7 | 2 | 0.625 | 87 Flyers |
| 0.20 | 5 | 1 | 0.481 | 88 Jets | |||||
| 1.00 | 4 | 4 | 0.656 | 88 Flames | |||||
| 0.80 | 5 | 4 | 0.581 | 88 Wings | |||||
| 0.67 | 4.5 | 3 | 0.588 | 88 Bruins | |||||
| 0.57 | 7 | 4 | 0.525 | 89 Oilers | |||||
| 0.25 | 4 | 1 | 0.731 | 89 Flames |
And in aggregate:
| GP | G | GPG | GPG | GP | G | |
| sub .500 | 34 | 33 | 0.97 | 0.65 | 34 | 22 |
| .500 - .599 | 45 | 23 | 0.51 | 0.63 | 55.5 | 35 |
| .600 + | 50 | 30 | 0.60 | 0.71 | 41 | 29 |
| Head to Head | 14 | 6 | 0.43 | 0.53 | 15 | 8 |
| Common Oppo | 15 | 6 | 0.40 | 0.73 | 15 | 11 |
| Sweep Win | 22 | 28 | 1.27 | 0.78 | 39.5 | 31 |
| Non-Sweep | 107 | 58 | 0.54 | 0.60 | 91 | 55 |
I would like to note the following:
1) Gretzky was a set-up man first. When he scores 0 goals in a first round series against the 1985 Kings, he can still lead the series in points. It also means he's creating plays where his own playmaking is burning his chances for go-ahead goals and especially powerplay goals.
2) Bossy's results by series fluctuate a lot more than Gretzky's. Bossy lights up the hopeless '79 Black Hawks in a 4-game sweep, and proceeds to have 1 point in 6 games in a series where his team was competitive against the Rangers. Building on point #1, when Bossy didn't score goals, he wasn't going to lead a series in points. But he's also almost a goal-per-game player against losing teams. When things go well for the Islanders, things go well for Bossy. When things go poorly, he's rarely scoring. It might actually help his situational stats in the OP to have scored a go-ahead goal in Game 6 against the '79 Rangers while scoring 0 other goals.
3) Bossy earned 3 go-ahead goals and 2 tying goals against the 1982 Canucks. Somehow, I feel I am less impressed by this than some others. While we're criticizing Gretzky for not scoring a Shorthanded goal against Denis Potvin (which it turns out he managed to do in 1 of the 15 playoff games where he could), we're okay with Bossy slamming Harold Snepsts and Anders Eldebrink for half of his 1982 playoff goals. On the flip side, Gretzky had his biggest single-series goal total against a .700+ '85 Flyers team that stymied Bossy.
EDIT: I miscounted Bossy's goal totals in the 1982 finals and gave him 8 instead of 7, which marginally changes some of the numbers here.
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VanIslander
20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
Gretzky was not happy ever with his shot.
Maybe that fed his pass.
In any event, his ability to perfectly pass or slap shot scared every goalie.
Maybe that fed his pass.
In any event, his ability to perfectly pass or slap shot scared every goalie.
Mike C
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VanIslander
20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
The Panther
Registered User
This old, revived thread got me thinking: Who are the 10 greatest NHL goal scorers! ever? Not in any order, but just the 10 best.
The ones that came to mind immediately were:
Richard
Howe
Hull sr.
Esposito
Bossy
Gretzky
Lemieux
Ovechkin
I personally feel that those eight are locks for the top ten. But then who would be the other two?
The ones that came to mind immediately were:
Richard
Howe
Hull sr.
Esposito
Bossy
Gretzky
Lemieux
Ovechkin
I personally feel that those eight are locks for the top ten. But then who would be the other two?
Yozhik v tumane
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As far as goal scorers go, Hull jr. would probably have a case for the top ten.
reckoning
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Hull Jr. absolutely belongs on the list. For the 10th spot, Charlie Conacher led the NHL in goals 5 times. Hard to leave him off.
VanIslander
20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
Guy Lafleur. There haven't been ten better.
Then either:
Joe Nieuwendyk for his eye-hand coordination.
OR
Teemu Selanne for his stickhandling while changing directions.
OR
Sergei Makarov (if non NHL counts).
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JackSlater
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I found this thread interesting at the time. I lean toward thinking that Bossy was probably the better goal scorers, though Gretzky clearly did better when they actually played.
Mike C
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Indeed. I always said Trots was the one player besides playoff Billy the team couldn't afford to lose
22 was the boss of the nets
hamzarocks
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jigglysquishy
Registered User
I wouldn't put Gartner in a top 25. Maybe lower end top 50?
Bill Cook absolutely belongs in a top 15.
Bill Cook absolutely belongs in a top 15.
Your examples are cherry picked, to say the least. He had GWG's in all four wins against the Bruins in 1983.
Me: "When things go well for the Islanders, things go well for Bossy. When things go poorly, he's rarely scoring."
Huh. Game-winning goals in a 5-2 win, a 7-3 win, an 8-3 win, and an 8-4 win. 28 goals in 4 wins. That's a matter of fortuitous timing since the GW goal definition isn't quite as useful as say the new Game Winning Drive definition for quarterbacks in the NFL.
But let's say this was a hard fought series. It did go 6 games after all.
Let's separate close series wins (win in 6 or 7 in best of 7, win in 5 of best-of-5), multi-game-lead series wins (sweeps, win 3-1, or win 4-1), and series losses.
While it could be argued Bossy's high scoring helped make these series one-sided, you'd have to account for the Islanders going 6-0 in those multi-game series wins from 1980-83 in games where Bossy did not play.
Huh. Game-winning goals in a 5-2 win, a 7-3 win, an 8-3 win, and an 8-4 win. 28 goals in 4 wins. That's a matter of fortuitous timing since the GW goal definition isn't quite as useful as say the new Game Winning Drive definition for quarterbacks in the NFL.
But let's say this was a hard fought series. It did go 6 games after all.
Let's separate close series wins (win in 6 or 7 in best of 7, win in 5 of best-of-5), multi-game-lead series wins (sweeps, win 3-1, or win 4-1), and series losses.
| Bossy GP | G | GPG | Gretzky GP | G | GPG | |
| Multi-Game Series Win | 45 | 43 | 0.96 | 69.5 | 48 | 0.69 |
| Close Series Win | 52 | 36 | 0.69 | 32 | 21 | 0.66 |
| Series Loss | 32 | 7 | 0.22 | 29 | 17 | 0.59 |
While it could be argued Bossy's high scoring helped make these series one-sided, you'd have to account for the Islanders going 6-0 in those multi-game series wins from 1980-83 in games where Bossy did not play.
Well, you did not trash the Bruins for his goals, I guess they were not lightweights. What difference does it make that the Isles won when he did not play?
Hockey Outsider
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I think there are a pretty clear top nine. In chronological order - Richard, Howe, Hull, Esposito, Bossy, Gretzky, Lemieux, Hull jr., and Ovechkin.
The tenth spot is wide open. I've often ranked Jagr there, but I know that's not a common position. Matthews looks like he could get there. There are plenty of other good choices - Stamkos, Bure, Selanne, Geoffrion, Conacher, etc.
Some of the best hockey of all time recorded on the quality of a potato
Gretzky has been directly quoted as saying he worked very hard in his early career to see dramatic improvement in his shot though? Want the quote?
There are several way better goalscorers than gretzky, I just dont think Bossy is one of them. Bossys career is like an exact match to the timeframe of the weakest era of goaltending in history, always playing on a competitive team, always getting significant PP time, and only leading the league in ESG once. His numbers arent really that impressive in context.
DitchMarner
TheGlitchintheSwitch
Some of the best hockey of all time recorded on the quality of a potato
Gretzky has been directly quoted as saying he worked very hard in his early career to see dramatic improvement in his shot though? Want the quote?
There are several way better goalscorers than gretzky, I just dont think Bossy is one of them. Bossys career is like an exact match to the timeframe of the weakest era of goaltending in history, always playing on a competitive team, always getting significant PP time, and only leading the league in ESG once. His numbers arent really that impressive in context.
I'd say his perception is helped by the fact that he retired early and his career GPG average looks ridiculously good. With a longer career, it obviously would have gone down,
People talk about how natural a goal scorer he was and how impressive his goal scoring was against strong teams/good defenses, but I'm kind of boring in that for me a goal is a goal. When it comes to assessing goal scoring, I don't care if a player takes a ton of shots or is an efficient shooter. I don't care if a player scores from all over the ice or can only score from in front of the net or the right circle. I don't care if a player does a ton of damage against terrible teams and another player doesn't and that keeps his goal totals down.
When two guys play in the same era and both play for good teams and get plenty of PP time and playing time with good players, accumulation stats are enough to tell you who the better goal scorer is. In the case of Gretzky versus Bossy, there is enough of a gap that I'd call Wayne the better scorer and not feel any need to defend the position. It certainly is possible Bossy was a more natural/more clutch goal scorer and better in certain contexts.
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MadLuke
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When he come to try to win the cup, that one seem relevant.
In general, all the point releved tell us how well he would do in other leagues, the ability to adapt, to not have formula to stop him, to worry about equipment or rules change.
From the second cup included in 1981 to the last cup win in 1984, Bossy scored 51 goals in 56 games, a 75 goals by 82 games pace.
Finding it more impressive and more telling of what he would do in the 06, dpe, etc... because playoff hockey specially the last round tend to have much lower scoring despite higher effort from the people trying to score than usual, seem like something not to dismiss.
Specially that he did it year after year like that. Take Radulov I am sure we can find players in the KHL that scored at level very similar to him in the KHL but were not able in the NHL, in case of a tie like that, would say Radulov was better, being able to do it in 2 league vs 1. Same goes for AHL scoring.
Because player seem to score differently one versus each other in different league, I am not sure scoring more than another in a specific league in a specific moment is final proof that they are a better goalscorer.
Some people scored 100 goals in the Q when Bossy was playing in it, he was outscored by at least someone every year I think, were they better goalscorer or just in that specific environment ?
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My former GM buddy said it best.
Q-You got those 2, how many GM's take Bossy over Gretzky with the first pick.
A-Only the ones who want to get fired.
Gretzky operated on a level where he could not only create his own shot, he could create differently and open it up for every team mate on the ice. Bossy was a monolith, a good scoring one at that.
But as far as getting a pass in the neutral zone, look over the defense and decide what's the best option for the team to score, that wasn't Bossy.
Bossy needed Trottier, Gretzky needed only himself.
Q-You got those 2, how many GM's take Bossy over Gretzky with the first pick.
A-Only the ones who want to get fired.
Gretzky operated on a level where he could not only create his own shot, he could create differently and open it up for every team mate on the ice. Bossy was a monolith, a good scoring one at that.
But as far as getting a pass in the neutral zone, look over the defense and decide what's the best option for the team to score, that wasn't Bossy.
Bossy needed Trottier, Gretzky needed only himself.
There are 9 locks in a top 9 and that includes Brett Hull. And he's not necessarily 9th either - I think there could be arguments to have him above Esposito and maybe even Bossy, though I usually have him 8th or 9th.
The only other "lock" to speak of is Auston Matthews. Is Auston Matthews as of this post in 2024 already a locked-in #10? I dunno - it's always hard for me to compare a player mid-career vs full career when it comes to how much longevity counts for - but there's about a 99.9% chance that Auston Matthews is a lock for a top 10 by the time he retires on such a list barring some catastrophic career ending injury.
As to how high Auston Matthews might climb? Good question. I'm starting to think there's a reasonable chance his regular season goal-scoring resume could challenge tier 1 (Lemieux/Gretzky/HullSr/Ovechkin) - but unless he figures out playoff scoring too, it'll always be a weakness. Still a lot of time for Matthews though - so he could realistically end up anywhere in a top 10 list.
Agreed on the top 9.
I've always had Bure as my #10 spot - though I think he's less of a lock thee than the other 9.
As for Matthews - to me there's a 99% chance he's a lock to make this a top 10 by the time he retires. He may already be there today, but he's definitely pacing for it otherwise.
If Matthews has a normal goal-scoring season next year (let's say ~50+, let alone a possible ~70 again), I think he'll be over 50 goals ahead of Ovechkin age for age. He's got a fantastic shot at 800+ career goals with just average longevity. Give him "good longevity" instead and he could also push for Gretzky's record. Still a long way to go, but he's extremely well positioned for now.
I classed them as high quality opponent given the .600+ regular season record, but something was wrong with them. The 83 Isles, unafraid of any potential bulletin board material, thought they were a mild inconvenience, especially on a bigger (regulation-size) ice surface.
The New York Islanders sound relatively unconcerned about the...
Why does it matter that they won when he didn't play? Because the thread seems to assert his goals were more crucial to winning.
That's the bit I would take issue with. in 1985 Gretzky scores 17 goals in 18 games against 4 teams with winning records. The 12th place overall 85 Kings are the worst team the Oilers faced, and were higher-ranked than all but one of the opponents of the 1981 Isles.
Also this "set defences" thing is nonsense that lumps in 5-on-4 PP goals with 5-on-5 ES goals to give them more weight.
Alternative explanation: Bossy was PP-dependent. Guess what period has fewer penalties called?
It could be that Arbour played the checking lines more if he wanted to protect a lead. After all the 1980 Islanders were +12 when Mike Bossy was off the ice, and -4 when Bossy was on the ice.
It's not just that Gretzky is great, it's not just that he scores 200 points with a 92 goal season and a 52 goal season, it's that 5-on-4 PP goals should be the easiest way to pad your stats. And when the goals were the easiest to score, Gretzky usually positioned himself behind the net and made himself a passer. In scoring 5 ES goals against the 1985 Flyers, Gretzky did something Bossy never did against any quality of opponent.
They played better defensively? Or perhaps the Finals tend to be a lower scoring environment.
Some of that is due to how the game is called. The stereotype is that whistles are put away, and the refs let players play. That's probably a big part of how the Flyers were tough matchups for New York and Edmonton in 1985 and 1987. There were low PPO, but probably a lot of stuff that could have been called. In a high PP environment, the Oilers went 8/25 against Boston in 4.5 games, and Gretzky was on a 200+ point pace in the Finals. Of course, the Isles were fortunate in terms of chances. In 1980, they went 15/40 in 6 games. 40!
Some of that is due to opponent, so naturally the 1981 Isles, who had the easiest schedule in modern playoff history, scored like the regular season Oilers with 5.39 GPG.
The Oilers scored less in the Finals, but teams typically do, unless they're lucky enough to run into a terrible opponent. I'd say the Oilers were still pretty successful after 1983, given that all of their Finals opponents were legitimate contenders.
Here are some of the high scorers in the 4-round era:
Most goals in a Finals series
4 game series
18. Oilers v. Bruins, 1988 (3 blackout game goals excluded)
18. Isles v. Canucks, 1982
17. Isles v. Oilers, 1983
5 games
26. Knights v. Panthers, 2023
26, Isles v. Stars, 1981
21. Oilers v. Isles, 1984
21. Oilers v. Flyers, 1985
20. Oilers v. Bruins, 1990
20. Caps v. Knights, 2018
7 Games
23. Bruins v. Canucks, 2011
22. Oilers v, Flyers, 1987
22. Bruins v. Blues, 2019
21. Rangers v. Canucks, 1994
Or put in a Bossy vs Gretzky context, once again, here's how they did against playoff teams based on their opponents' regular season records.
| GP | G | Bossy GPG | Gretzky GPG | GP | G | |
| sub .500 | 34 | 33 | 0.97 | 0.65 | 34 | 22 |
| .500 - .599 | 45 | 23 | 0.51 | 0.63 | 55.5 | 35 |
| .600 + | 50 | 30 | 0.60 | 0.71 | 41 | 29 |
JackSlater
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I remember posting about basically this a few years ago.
Player A regular season: 203 goals in 361 games, .56 goals per game. 33.7 goals per 60 game season.
Player B regular season: 143 goals in 314 games, .47 goals per game. 28.2 goals per 60 game season.
Player A playoffs: 23 goals in 45 games, .51 goals per game.
Player B playoffs: 27 goals in 93 games, .29 goals per game.
Player B is less than two years older than Player A. Player B played on the higher scoring team in 5/7 of their overlapping seasons and on the team that finished higher in the standings 6/7 times. By any statistical argument Player A is the better goal scorer... in that league. For what it's worth, during that span Player A played one international tournament at the top level and scored 4 goals in 7 games. Player B played in the same tournament a year before (closest year to them both playing) and scored 2 goals in 10 games. Player B's team was much stronger than Player A's team was.
The league is the KHL, Player A is Nigel Dawes, and Player B is Ilya Kovalchuk. Of course Kovalchuk blows Dawes away in their NHL careers, overlapping and otherwise.
