Mike Bossy was a better goal scorer than Wayne Gretzky

[Beau Knows]

So the argument is...if we pretend Gretzky isn't as good as Gretzky, then Gretzky likely wouldn't have been as effective as Gretzky?

That's the only real argument I can see Bossy having here. If you somehow were able to only isolate the skills directly related to "goal scoring" for both players, that maybe Bossy could score more goals.

But, as I concluded in my post (the part you removed for some reason), I don't think that would be the case at all.

 

[Michael Farkas]

If you somehow were able to only isolate the skills directly related to "goal scoring" for both players, that maybe Bossy could score more goals.

Well, yeah...that's exactly what this is about. And there's no "somehow" about it...this can be part of any normal evaluation process.

In Alexander Semin's "best of" years (2007 to 2014) he scored 222 goals. Patrick Marleau scored 250. Would folks view Marleau's goal scoring process and ability as better than Semin's...?

Of course not (I hope).

 

[Midnight Judges]

That's the only real argument I can see Bossy having here. If you somehow were able to only isolate the skills directly related to "goal scoring" for both players, that maybe Bossy could score more goals.

But, as I concluded in my post (the part you removed for some reason), I don't think that would be the case at all.

I am agreeing with you.

I don't see the virtue of attempting to isolate goal scoring skills as if playmaking isn't part of the equation. If Gretzky's goal scoring was enhanced by his passing deception, then credit ought to go to him for deploying that weapon.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Sorry but that's an impossible position to hold.

From 77-78 to 86-87 (ie Bossy's whole career)

Bossy 85 goals in 129 playoff games. 0.66 goals per game, or 54 goals per 82 games
Gretzky 69 goals over 101 playoff games. 0.68 goals per game, or 56 goals per 82 games.

Bossy 573 regular season goals in 752 games. 0.76 goals per game, or 62 goals per 82 games
Gretzky 543 goals in 632 games for 0.86 goals per game, or 70 goals per 82 games

Since Gretzky only started in 1979-1980 in the NHL - if instead of giving Bossy 2 full seasons advantage - we only compare seasons where they were head to head - so 1979-1980 to 1986-1987:

Gretzky 69 goals over 101 playoff games. 0.68 goals per game, or 56 goals per 82 games.
Gretzky 543 goals in 632 games for 0.86 goals per game, or 70 goals per 82 games

vs

Bossy 77 goals in 112 playoff games, 0.69 goals per game, or 56 goals over 82 games
Bossy 451 goals in 599 games 0.75 goals per game, or 62 goals per 82 games

In terms of head to head seasons:

1979-1980. Gretzky (rookie) ties Bossy 51 goals
1980-1981. Bossy 68, Gretzky 55. Clear win for Bossy. This is the only one.
1981-1982. Gretzky 92, Bossy 64.
1982-83. Gretzky 71, Bossy 60
1983-1984. Gretzky 87, Bossy 51.
1984-1985. Gretzky 73, Bossy 58
1985-1986. Gretzky 52 Bossy 61 - but should we even count this as a win when Gretzky said he was targeting 2 assists per game - and did score 160 assists? Seems pretty insane.
1986-87. Gretzky 62 goals, Bossy 38 (missed ~20 games).

Those are humongous wins by Gretzky - outside of his sophmore year, he beat him handily every single season, and usually by a lot - except for the one year where he went to get 160+ assists. And in every one of those seasons - Gretzky also led the league in assists, which cut into his goals scored.

Based on all of this - Gretzky is very very clearly ahead.

And of course - after 1986-87, Gretzky added 58 more playoff goals, 413 more regular season goals, and owns the record all-time in both cases.

No - Bossy has absolutely no argument at all over Gretzky for a goal-scorer.

There is no place on earth where this opinion can be backed with facts. Gretzky was the better goalscorer AINEC.

Sorry but that's an impossible position to hold.

From 77-78 to 86-87 (ie Bossy's whole career)

Bossy 85 goals in 129 playoff games. 0.66 goals per game, or 54 goals per 82 games
Gretzky 69 goals over 101 playoff games. 0.68 goals per game, or 56 goals per 82 games.

Bossy 573 regular season goals in 752 games. 0.76 goals per game, or 62 goals per 82 games
Gretzky 543 goals in 632 games for 0.86 goals per game, or 70 goals per 82 games

Since Gretzky only started in 1979-1980 in the NHL - if instead of giving Bossy 2 full seasons advantage - we only compare seasons where they were head to head - so 1979-1980 to 1986-1987:

Gretzky 69 goals over 101 playoff games. 0.68 goals per game, or 56 goals per 82 games.
Gretzky 543 goals in 632 games for 0.86 goals per game, or 70 goals per 82 games

vs

Bossy 77 goals in 112 playoff games, 0.69 goals per game, or 56 goals over 82 games
Bossy 451 goals in 599 games 0.75 goals per game, or 62 goals per 82 games

In terms of head to head seasons:

1979-1980. Gretzky (rookie) ties Bossy 51 goals
1980-1981. Bossy 68, Gretzky 55. Clear win for Bossy. This is the only one.
1981-1982. Gretzky 92, Bossy 64.
1982-83. Gretzky 71, Bossy 60
1983-1984. Gretzky 87, Bossy 51.
1984-1985. Gretzky 73, Bossy 58
1985-1986. Gretzky 52 Bossy 61 - but should we even count this as a win when Gretzky said he was targeting 2 assists per game - and did score 160 assists? Seems pretty insane.
1986-87. Gretzky 62 goals, Bossy 38 (missed ~20 games).

Those are humongous wins by Gretzky - outside of his sophmore year, he beat him handily every single season, and usually by a lot - except for the one year where he went to get 160+ assists. And in every one of those seasons - Gretzky also led the league in assists, which cut into his goals scored.

Based on all of this - Gretzky is very very clearly ahead.

And of course - after 1986-87, Gretzky added 58 more playoff goals, 413 more regular season goals, and owns the record all-time in both cases.

No - Bossy has absolutely no argument at all over Gretzky for a goal-scorer.

end thread and the nonsense. It’s already continued for 11 pages too long.

Seriously....not many years ago, I didn't even realize there were any hockey people who thought Gretzky was a better goal-scorer than Bossy, outside of a very small minority. Now, it seems like almost everybody of younger generations thinks this.

In the 1980s, the large majority thought Bossy was the better goal-scorer....and, among smart hockey people, virtually everybody.

Bossy's game was ultra-adaptable to any situation, to any level of hockey. He was focused and very intelligent.

BS

 

[BehindTheTimes]

The only reason this is a debate is because it’s the one area of the game where Gretzky doesn’t completely lap him. He scored over 100 assists while also beating him at scoring goals throughout their primes. Gretzky was a better goal scorer, playmaker and everything else.

 

[DitchMarner]

The Dawes/Kovalchuk situation is certainly interesting and worth considering, but in the case of those two there is actual data that suggests Dawes was (likely) the better goal scorer in a certain context (KHL play).

In the case of Gretzky and Bossy, we don't know that Bossy would/could have outscored him under different circumstances. It can be theorized that he would/could have, but it's a only theory.

When it comes to goal scoring, there are cerebral aspects that are harder to quantify and measure than things like goal totals, shot volume and shot velocity. Consider someone like Luc Robitaille. He wasn't that big or fast or strong. Nor was he a particularly good skater or puck carrier. He was called "Lucky Luc" because he still scored a lot of goals. But it wasn't because of luck. He knew how to do it. Some guys simply do. One might have thought that his goal scoring wouldn't translate in a tighter-checking era. However, he did well for himself and had some of his best seasons in the Dead Puck Era.

 

[WarriorofTime]

The Dawes/Kovalchuk situation is certainly interesting and worth considering, but in the case of those two there is actual data that suggests Dawes was (likely) the better goal scorer in a certain context (KHL play).

Tough to say, would Kovalchuk score more if they were on opposite teams and Kovalchuk was being counted on to score more as opposed to more spreading of the love so to speak? But also Kovalchuk was two years older, which is not a ton but plays a role in it as well.

 

[JackSlater]

The Dawes/Kovalchuk situation is certainly interesting and worth considering, but in the case of those two there is actual data that suggests Dawes was (likely) the better goal scorer in a certain context (KHL play).

In the case of Gretzky and Bossy, we don't know that Bossy would/could have outscored him under different circumstances. It can be theorized that he would/could have, but it's a only theory.

When it comes to goal scoring, there are cerebral aspects that are harder to quantify and measure than things like goal totals, shot volume and shot velocity. Consider someone like Luc Robitaille. He wasn't that big or fast or strong. Nor was he a particularly good skater or puck carrier. He was called "Lucky Luc" because he still scored a lot of goals. But it wasn't because of luck. He knew how to do it. Some guys simply do. One might have thought that his goal scoring wouldn't translate in a tighter-checking era. However, he did well for himself and had some of his best seasons in the Dead Puck Era.

Of course there isn't really data for Gretzky and Bossy in an alternate setting, other than the playoff and international data being different than the regular season data. It's also clear that it is only a theory regarding Gretzky and Bossy. There is no way to definitively prove that either was better as a goal scorer, just that Gretzky was more prolific when their careers overlapped. Which of course is a great piece of evidence in Gretzky's favour.

The point of Dawes and Kovalchuk is not to prove anything about whether Gretzky or Bossy was a better goal scorer. The point, and junior scoring results make this point over shorter spans all the time, is that one guy might outscore another regularly in one context but not another.

 

[blogofmike]

The point, and junior scoring results make this point over shorter spans all the time, is that one guy might outscore another regularly in one context but not another.

That's fair, but I took issue with taking playoff goals and treating them equally, when Bossy's results were so uneven.

If Bossy was better in "structured" environments, could it be said he was more of a system quarterback? If his team is winning he's doing well. If his team loses a series, he scores 8 goals in 43 games, and hits 0.50 GPG once, when he scored 1 goal in 2 games against the 87 Caps.

The first time Gretzky played in a playoff series, he scored 2 goals in 3 games, scoring at the same rate Bossy would against the 80 Flyers. And he scores at a higher clip than Bossy ever would in a series loss.

Put another way, Gretzky scored between 0.50 and 0.75 GPG against every playoff opponent. The exceptions were when he scored 1.00 against three 1-time opponents, and a 0.40 probably influenced by a concussion in the 87 series where he had 2 points (both assists) in 5 games.

Cumulative Playoff Goal Scoring By Opponent

GP	G	Bossy GPG		Gretzky GPG	GP	G
15	6	0.40	Flyers	0.73	15	11
6	4	0.67	Canadiens	1.00	3	3
4	5	1.25	Blackhawks	0.60	10	6
2	1	0.50	Kings	0.54	13	7
8	11	1.38	Bruins	0.67	4.5	3
5	4	0.80	Stars	1.00	4	4
4	7	1.75	Canucks	1.00	3	3
14	6	0.43	Oilers	0.57	7	4
10	6	0.60	Leafs
27	14	0.52	Rangers
6	3	0.50	Sabres
5	2	0.40	Penguins
4	4	1.00	Nordiques
			Jets	0.68	19	13
			Flames	0.74	27	20
			Islanders	0.53	15	8
19	12	0.63	Capitals
			Wings	0.40	10	4
129	86	0.67	Total Playoffs	0.66	130.5	86

There's no running up the goal totals against the Jets, even if Gretzky's team was 18-1 over 19 games.

Wild Card Wayne consistently scores against everybody.

Boss Structure kills weaker opponents, and doesn't do so hot when the going gets tough.

When their team loses a series, Gretzky goes down swinging, with 20 goals in 40 games. Bossy, with 8 goals in 43 games, goes rather gently into the good night.

EDIT: Never mind. The Islanders beat the 87 Caps....
LATER EDIT: I originally miscounted Bossy's goal totals in the 1982 finals and gave him 8 instead of 7.

 

[The Panther]

While Bossy's 10-year career is pretty much consistently elite goal scoring, at similar rates and mainly in a similar scoring environment, Gretzky's are not.

There are at least four 'tiers' of Gretzky goal scoring:

1) 1981-82 to December 30, 1987 (Gretzky injured vs. Philly in his final Edmonton season)
NHL goals:
467 - Gretzky
343 - Kurri (75% of whose goals assisted by Gretzky)
335 - Goulet
332 - Bossy (didn't play 1987-88)
290 - Anderson

Gretzky scored 36% more goals than anybody else in the League. He led the NHL in goals in 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, and 1987. He had 5-goal games spanning 1981 to 1987. He was 1 goal behind Mario when he got hurt in mid-season, 1987-88.

2) 1979-80 / 1980-81 and January 1988 to March 1994 (period ends the night be broke Howe's goals' record)

In his first two NHL seasons, he was around 4th or 5th best goal scorer, and in the latter period (mostly with L.A.) he varied (50 goals in 65 games his first season) but generally averaged around 40-45 goals per year, maybe ranking 15th or so overall.

3) 1995-96 to 1997-98
He's a productive but far from elite goal-scorer.

4) 1998-99
He can't score.

So, it's not like there's one Gretzky goal-scoring level to compare with Bossy. Whereas there is basically one, consistent Bossy level.

But I think Gretzky level (1) is well above Bossy's best level.

 

[BarnabyJones PI]

While Bossy's 10-year career is pretty much consistently elite goal scoring, at similar rates and mainly in a similar scoring environment, Gretzky's are not.

There are at least four 'tiers' of Gretzky goal scoring:

1) 1981-82 to December 30, 1987 (Gretzky injured vs. Philly in his final Edmonton season)
NHL goals:
467 - Gretzky
343 - Kurri (75% of whose goals assisted by Gretzky)
335 - Goulet
332 - Bossy (didn't play 1987-88)
290 - Anderson

Gretzky scored 36% more goals than anybody else in the League. He led the NHL in goals in 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, and 1987. He had 5-goal games spanning 1981 to 1987. He was 1 goal behind Mario when he got hurt in mid-season, 1987-88.

2) 1979-80 / 1980-81 and January 1988 to March 1994 (period ends the night be broke Howe's goals' record)

In his first two NHL seasons, he was around 4th or 5th best goal scorer, and in the latter period (mostly with L.A.) he varied (50 goals in 65 games his first season) but generally averaged around 40-45 goals per year, maybe ranking 15th or so overall.

3) 1995-96 to 1997-98
He's a productive but far from elite goal-scorer.

4) 1998-99
He can't score.

So, it's not like there's one Gretzky goal-scoring level to compare with Bossy. Whereas there is basically one, consistent Bossy level.

But I think Gretzky level (1) is well above Bossy's best level.

If you take their 9 best goal scoring seasons (1980-89), it's Getzky with 586 in 695 games, vs Bossy's 535 in 689 games (1977-86). You're including both of their prime runs. In this case, it doesn't look so bad.

I went with Gretzky's 1987-88 season (40 G/64 GP) over his 1979-80 season (51 G/79 GP), because while I think he's scoring goals at roughly the same pace (0.65 GPG vs 0.63 GPG), he's a significantly greater player in '88. Gretzky and Bossy look better relative to one other also, since Gretzky would be over 700 GP if I went with 1979-80 season instead. Either way...

Another thing to consider, is that there really weren't many 60 goal scorers in the East, over the duration of those 9 prime years that Bossy had played (1977-86). The only people to have done so would be:

• Guy Lafleur with 60 in 1977-78
• Mike Bossy with 69 in 1978-79
• Mike Bossy with 68 in 1981-81
• Mike Bossy with 64 in 1981-82
• Dennis Maruk with 60 in 1981-82
• Mike Bossy with 60 in 1982-83
• Mike Bossy with 61 in 1985-86

Also, how would Bossy's stats look if he reached 70 goals, twice in his career? Not to mention that he wasn't far off from 60 a few other times.

By comparison, 60 goals scorers in the West from 1980-89:

• Wayne Gretzky with 92 in 1981-82
• Wayne Gretzky with 71 in 1982-83
• Lanny McDonald with 66 in 1982-83
• Wayne Gretzky with 87 in 1983-84
• Wayne Gretzky with 73 in 1984-85
• Jari Kurri with 71 in 1984-85
• Jari Kurri with 68 in 1985-86
• Wayne Gretzky with 62 in 1986-87
• Bernie Nicholls with 70 in 1988-89
• Steve Yzerman with 65 in 1988-89

Of course, this looks great for Gretzky, because he's directly involved with not only his 5 seasons, but Kurri's and Nichols' seasons as well.

How about 55 goals (and up) in a season, starting with the East and Bossy from 1977-86:

• Mike Bossy with 69 in 1978-79
• Blaine Stoughton with 56 in 1979-80
• Danny Gare with 56 in 1979-80
• Mike Bossy with 68 in 1980-81
• Rick Kehoe with 55 in 1980-81
• Mike Bossy with 64 in 1981-82
• Dennis Maruk with 60 in 1981-82
• Mike Bossy with 60 in 1982-83
• Michel Goulet with 57 in 1982-83
• Michel Goulet with 56 in 1983-84
• Mike Bossy with 58 in 1984-85
• Michel Goulet with 55 in 1984-85
• Mike Bossy with 61 in 1985-86
• Tim Kerr with 58 in 1985-86

Now with Gretzky (1980-89) in the West:

• Marcel Dionne with 58 in 1980-81
• Charlie Simmer with 56 in 1980-81
• Wayne Gretzky with 55 in 1980-81
• Wayne Gretzky with 92 in 1981-82
• Dino Ciccarelli with 55 in 1981-82
• Wayne Gretzky with 71 in 1982-83
• Lanny McDonald with 66 in 1982-83
• Marcel Dionne with 57 in 1982-83
• Wayne Grezky with 87 in 1983-84
• Wayne Gretzky with 73 in 1984-85
• Jari Kurri with 71 in 1984-85
• John Ogrodnick with 55 in 1984-85
• Jari Kurri with 68 in 1985-86
• Wayne Gretzky with 62 in 1986-87
• Craig Simpson with 56 in 1987-88 (59 games, 42 goals with the Oilers)
• Jimmy Carson with 55 in 1987-88
• Bernie Nicholls with 70 in 1988-89
• Steve Yzerman with 65 in 1988-89

Okay, no real difference.

How about 50 goal scorers in the East (1977-86):

• Guy Lafleur with 60 in 1977-78
• Mike Bossy with 53 in 1977-78
• Mike Bossy with 69 in 1978-79
• Guy Lafleur with 52 in 1978-79
• Guy Chouinard with 50 in 1978-79
• Blaine Stoughton with 56 in 1979-80
• Danny Gare with 56 in 1979-80
• Mike Bossy with 51 in 1979-80
• Guy Lafleur with 50 in 1979-80
• Pierre Larouche with 50 in 1979-80
• Reggie Leach with 50 in 1979-80
• Mike Bossy with 68 in 1980-81
• Rick Kehoe with 55 in 1980-81
• Jacques Richard with 52 in 1980-81
• Dennis Maruk with 50 in 1980-81
• Mike Bossy with 64 in 1981-82
• Dennis Maruk with 60 in 1981-82
• Blaine Stoughton with 52 in 1981-82
• Rick Middleton with 51 in 1981-82
• Bryan Trottier with 50 in 1981-82
• Mike Bossy with 60 in 1982-83
• Michel Goulet with 57 in 1982-83
• Michel Goulet with 56 in 1983-84
• Tim Kerr with 54 in 1983-84
• Mike Bossy with 51 in 1983-84
• Mike Bullard with 51 in 1983-84
• Mike Bossy with 58 in 1984-85
• Michel Goulet with 55 in 1984-85
• Tim Kerr with 54 in 1984-85
• Bobby Carpenter with 53 in 1984-85
• Mike Gartner with 50 in 1984-85
• Mike Bossy with 61 in 1985-86
• Tim Kerr with 58 in 1985-86
• Michel Goulet with 53 in 1985-86

*Mike Bossy (bold) led the Wales Conference in goals 6 times in 9 seasons.

There were "35" 50 goal seasons throughout that stretch.

50 goal season in the West from 1980-89:

• Marcel Dionne with 58 in 1980-81
• Charlie Simmer with 56 in 1980-81
• Wayne Gretzky with 55 in 1980-81
• Wayne Babych with 54 in 1980-81
• Wayne Gretzky with 92 in 1981-82
• Dino Ciccarelli with 55 in 1981-82
• Rick Vaive with 54 in 1981-82
• Marcel Dionne with 50 in 1981-82
• Mark Messier with 50 in 1981-82
• Wayne Gretzky with 71 in 1982-83
• Lanny McDonald with 66 in 1982-83
• Marcel Dionne with 56 in 1982-83
• Al Secord with 54 in 1982-83
• Rick Vaive with 51 in 1982-83
• Wayne Gretzky with 87 in 1983-84
• Glenn Anderson with 54 in 1983-84
• Jari Kurri with 52 in 1983-84
• Rick Vaive with 52 in 1983-84
• Wayne Gretzky with 73 in 1984-85
• Jarri Kurri with 71 in 1984-85
• John Ogrodnick with 55 in 1984-85
• Dale Hawerchuk with 53 in 1984-85
• Jari Kurri with 68 in 1985-86
• Glenn Anderson with 54 in 1985-86
• Wayne Gretzky with 52 in 1985-86
• Wayne Gretzky with 62 in 1986-87
• Jari Kurri with 54 in 1986-87
• Dino Ciccarelli with 52 in 1986-87
• Craig Simpson with 56 in 1987-88
• Jimmy Carson with 55 in 1987-88
• Luc Robitaille with 53 in 1987-88
• Joe Nieuwendyk with 51 in 1987-88
• Hakan Loob with 50 in 1987-88
• Steve Yzerman with 50 in 1987-88
• Bernie Nicholls with 70 in 1988-89
• Steve Yzerman with 65 in 1988-89
• Wayne Gretzky with 54 in 1988-89
• Joe Mullen with 51 in 1988-89
• Joe Nieuwendyk with 51 in 1988-89

There were "39" 50 goal scorers during that stretch.

I was hoping to see that it's easier to score in the West in the '80s, but I don't see much evidence of that, at least not from looking at this.

Islanders

1977-78
GF: 334 (2nd of 18)
GA: 210 (3rd of 18)
3rd overall, 48/17/15 for 111 pts

Islanders

1978-79
GF: 358 (1st of 17)
GA: 214 (2nd of 17)
1st overall, 51/15/14 for 116 points

Islanders

1979-80
GF: 281 (12th of 21)
GA: 247 (4th of 21)
5th overall 39/28/13 for 91 points

Islanders

1980-81
GF: 355 (1st of 21)
GA: 260 (4th of 21)
1st overall 48/18/14 for 110 points

Oilers

1980-81
GF: 328 (6th of 21)
GA: 327 (15th of 21)
13th overall 29/35/16 for 74 points

Islanders

1981-82
GF: 385 (2nd of 21)
GA: 250 (2nd of 21)
1st overall 54/16/10 for 118 points

Oilers

1981-82
GF: 417 (1st of 21)
GA: 295 (7th of 21)
2nd overall 48/17/15 for 111 points

Islanders

1982-83
GF: 302 (15th of 21)
GA: 226 (1st of 21)
6th overall 42/26/12 for 96 points

Oilers

1982-83
GF: 424 (1st of 21)
GA: 315 (11th of 21)
3rd overall 47/21/12 for 106 points

Islanders

1983-84
GF: 357 (3rd of 21)
GA: 269 (4th of 21)
3rd overall 50/26/4 for 104 points

Oilers

1983-84
GF: 446 (1st of 21)
GA: 314 (10th of 21)
1st overall 57/18/5 for 119 points

Islanders

1984-85
GF: 345 (5th of 21)
GA: 312 (11th of 21)
9th overall 40/34/6 for 86 points

Oilers

1984-85
GF: 401 (1st of 21)
GA: 298 (8th of 21)
2nd overall 49/20/11 for 109 points

Islanders

1985-86
GF: 327 (8th of 21)
GA: 284 (5th of 21)
5th overall 39/29/12 for 90 points

Oilers

1985-86
GF: 426 (1st of 21)
GA: 310 (13th of 21)
1st overall 56/17/7 for 119 points

Oilers

1986-87
GF: 372 (1st of 21)
GA: 284 (10th of 21)
1st overall 50/24/6 for 106 points

Oilers

1987-88
GF: 363 (2nd of 21)
GA: 288 (8th of 21)
3rd overall 44/25/11 for 99 points

Kings

1988-89
GF: 376 (1st of 21)
GA: 335 (5th of 21)
4th overall 42/31/7 for 91 points

The Islanders were one of the best defensive teams throughout the time Bossy played for them. I don't think he was ever going to run up his goal totals, like he might have if he played on a different team. It wasn't necessary. The Islanders were winning cups by his 3rd year in the league.

If anything, looking through all of this, I've come away that Gretzky was always going to score more goals in the early part of the '80s, maybe more than anyone else could. And that's because he makes everyone around him better, and he yields the greatest returns as a result of this; extra space to work with (pick your poison, him or one of his teammates). His shooting style is also suited for that era (IMO).

Bossy's also at a disadvantage because:

a) he's not Gretzky, and he's not going to be able to create all of that extra space. He's depending more on his center to create for him. I think in a peak situation (with everything lined up perfectly), centers will have an edge over premier wingers for generating the absolute highest goal outputs.

b) it's really only his line, not that there wasn't any depth on the Islanders, but the Oilers have that next great line behind Gretzky (Messier and Anderson). The Kings lacked depth, but Bernie Nicholls was also great behind Gretzky (highest single season output over any of his more celebrated teammates). Gretzky's not only creating space within his own line, but for the 2nd line as well.

c) while he has Potvin (who I'm taking over Coffey any day of the week), Coffey is EXACTLY the guy you want on the point if you want to go from 160 points seasons to +200 points seasons. Gretzky and Lemieux had their greatest goal output with Coffey in tow. We could point to '92-'93 for Lemieux without Coffey, but I'd argue that the Pens two top lines specifically that season (in that high scoring environment) are greater than the best Oilers top two lines at any point, sort of making up the difference of not having Coffey.

I've often wondered if you swapped situations for Marcel Dionne with Gilbert Perreault, how much different their careers would have been statistically. I wonder the same of Gretzky. Would he have even had a single season of +200 points playing in the East (I'm skeptical that he would have done so)?

All of this doesn't matter though, because you can't separate Gretzky from his passing and his ability to get the most out of talent which surrounds him, which in turn, gave him more room (and opportunities) to score goals, over Mike Bossy.

I truly think that had he played with Gretzky, they both could have taken a run at 100 goals in a season. Gretzky recognizes how incredible of a goal scorer that Bossy was, he's said as much, so many times over the years. He admired how gifted Bossy was at it.

 

[bobbyking]

maybe there's debates for these comparisons, crosby never led the league in assists but is easily a top 10 playmaker in nhl history

 

[Michael Farkas]

maybe there's debates for these comparisons, crosby never led the league in assists but is easily a top 10 playmaker in nhl history

I get your point. But Crosby did lead the league in assists.

(And three times in assists per game, and led two playoffs in assists)

 

[overpass]

That's fair, but I took issue with taking playoff goals and treating them equally, when Bossy's results were so uneven.

If Bossy was better in "structured" environments, could it be said he was more of a system quarterback? If his team is winning he's doing well. If his team loses a series, he scores 8 goals in 43 games, and hits 0.50 GPG once, when he scored 1 goal in 2 games against the 87 Caps.

The first time Gretzky played in a playoff series, he scored 2 goals in 3 games, scoring at the same rate Bossy would against the 80 Flyers. And he scores at a higher clip than Bossy ever would in a series loss.

Put another way, Gretzky scored between 0.50 and 0.75 GPG against every playoff opponent. The exceptions were when he scored 1.00 against three 1-time opponents, and a 0.40 probably influenced by a concussion in the 87 series where he had 2 points (both assists) in 5 games.

Cumulative Playoff Goal Scoring By Opponent

GP	G	Bossy GPG		Gretzky GPG	GP	G
15	6	0.40	Flyers	0.73	15	11
6	4	0.67	Canadiens	1.00	3	3
4	5	1.25	Blackhawks	0.60	10	6
2	1	0.50	Kings	0.54	13	7
8	11	1.38	Bruins	0.67	4.5	3
5	4	0.80	Stars	1.00	4	4
4	8	2.00	Canucks	1.00	3	3
14	6	0.43	Oilers	0.57	7	4
10	6	0.60	Leafs
27	14	0.52	Rangers
6	3	0.50	Sabres
5	2	0.40	Penguins
4	4	1.00	Nordiques
			Jets	0.68	19	13
			Flames	0.74	27	20
			Islanders	0.53	15	8
19	12	0.63	Capitals
			Wings	0.40	10	4
129	86	0.67	Total Playoffs	0.66	130.5	86

There's no running up the goal totals against the Jets, even if Gretzky's team was 18-1 over 19 games.

Wild Card Wayne consistently scores against everybody.

Boss Structure kills weaker opponents, and doesn't do so hot when the going gets tough.

When their team loses a series, Gretzky goes down swinging, with 20 goals in 40 games. Bossy, with 8 goals in 43 games, goes rather gently into the good night.

EDIT: Never mind. The Islanders beat the 87 Caps....

I could agree that Bossy's goal-scoring was more related to teammate performance than Gretzky's.

1979 vs Rangers and the 1984 playoffs as a whole were both times when all 3 of Bossy, Trottier, and Potvin were noted for not playing well.