Mike Bossy was a better goal scorer than Wayne Gretzky

ContrarianGoaltender

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I don't think the premise of this question is valid. Goal scoring is more of a "macro skill", an end result of a bunch of other micro skills. You named some - stickhandling, zone entries, etc. No, of course Gretzky isn't the best at every micro skill.

But the macro skill of goalscoring - i.e. put simply, how good a player is at scoring goals, is based on a number of micro skills. How good a player is at scoring goals depends on, among other things:

- the player's shot power
- their shot accuracy
- their ability to vary their shot either as warranted by the situation or just to be unpredictable
- their ability to hide the intentions of their shot
- their ability to stickhandle past defensemen to get into scoring position
- their ability to deke out the goalie if necessary
- their ability to put themselves in scoring position so teammates see them as a good passing option
- their hockey sense to see a play developing and predict where the puck will "end up" and go there
- their ability to deflect pucks on net
- their ability to time their shots so as to make the best use of screens and chaos in front
- yes, even their known ability as a playmaker which psychs out defenders

And so on. There is no one single skill that defines a player as a "good goal scorer" - it's everything combined.

So to answer the question now, is Gretzky better at every single one of those things? no, definitely not, but he was better at enough of them by a large enough degree, that it translated into significantly more goals in his prime.

You could define the better goal scorer of the two as whichever one scores the most when given 100 clear chances in the slot - and maybe Bossy would score more of those - but, like you said, hockey isn't played that way. In the wide variety of situations a hockey player can and does find themselves in, it seems clear that Gretzky was able to be the last one to touch the puck before a goal more than Bossy, while showing the clear ability to have done so even more, if he was selfish.

Completely fair objection. I think we probably have a base-level philosophical difference here, but I am interested in your perspective if you don't mind getting down into the details a bit.

I was curious, as a historian, do you think that @Staniowski 's claim in this thread is accurate that many contemporary hockey observers during the 1980s would have rated Bossy over Gretzky as a goal scorer? And if that is the case, what do you think they were evaluating under "goal scoring" that we aren't today, considering that they pretty obviously didn't think that the raw stats were the primary factor back then, and given that the current HOH consensus seems to be that Gretzky should be rated as superior?

I'm not as good of a scout as many others here, but I'm surprised that you think Gretzky was better than Bossy at most of the things on your list. My immediate intuition was the exact opposite, that Bossy was better at most of them but Gretzky was probably much better at a few of them. (EDIT-Might have misread your post a bit here, could be that we agree).

Also, if we're going so far as to include things like playmaking in a player's goal scoring ability, are there are any offensive micro skills at all that are excluded? Do you think that there is a risk that if we go too "macro" in our definition, that we are no longer rating how good the player is at goal scoring, and instead simply how good that player is at offensive production? And does the "he could have scored more goals" argument go the other way? Like, should I view Alex Ovechkin as a superior playmaker to Nicklas Backstrom in 2007-08 because Ovechkin scored way more goals while being not too far behind in assists, even though he clearly could have chosen to pass the puck more often?
 
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overpass

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I think the “Gretzky could have scored more goals if he wanted to” objection proves too much.

It’s an implicit argument that there is no such thing as the greatest goal scorer, only the greatest offensive player. Because the great offensive players could have chosen to shoot more or pass more, we can’t split offensive value into goal scoring and playmaking, so we’ll just assume the best offensive player would have been the best goal scorer.

In any case, if you are pursuing this line of argument, you agree with me that the best goal scorer is not simply the one who scored the most regular season goals. I’ve chosen to narrow in on finding the “best” by looking at how they actually scored in games where they were highly motivated to win, not chase statistics. You may choose to find the best by imagining how they would perform if they chose to chase statistics. I for one prefer when hockey is played to win, not chase individual statistics.
 
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vadim sharifijanov

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Best teams (0.50 SRS or better):

PlayerGPGAP
Gretzky6748107155
Bossy865751108
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Rest of the league:

PlayerGPGAP
Gretzky247275391666
Bossy216176216392
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Putting it all together and converting to per-80 game rates for easy reading and comparison:

BestBestBestBestRestRestRestRest
PlayerGPGAPGPGAP
Gretzky80571281858089127216
Bossy805347100806580145
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

one thing this raises is, are we to assume that in their overlapping years, the patrick div and/or wales conference was generally tougher than the smythe/campbell's?
 
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JianYang

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As time moves on, I generally feel that bossy's legacy is slowly fading, while Gretzky's legend is still growing....which only makes this argument a more difficult one to present as we move forward.
 

HF007

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Gotta go with the number on this one, Gretzky was mopping the floor with him
 

ContrarianGoaltender

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one thing this raises is, are we to assume that in their overlapping years, the patrick div and/or wales conference was generally tougher than the smythe/campbell's?

Absolutely.

Campbell Conference against the Wales Conference:

YearWLT
19829517263
198313214355
198412916635
198513915437
198611818725
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
The discrepancy was just as significant if we focus on the top of the league. Here's a list of the best team in the Campbell other than the Oilers (which is very relevant if we're looking from Gretzky's perspective), along with how many Wales teams ranked ahead of them:

Best Non-Edmonton Team in the Campbell:

1982: Minnesota (behind EDM and 3 Wales tms incl. NYI)
1983: Chicago (behind EDM and 2 Wales tms)
1984: Minnesota (behind EDM and 7 Wales tms incl. NYI)
1985: Winnipeg (behind EDM and 2 Wales tms)
1986: Calgary (behind EDM and 4 Wales tms incl. NYI)

And that's just based on points, even though the teams out West also had easier schedules in terms of average opponent than the teams in the East.
 

Osakahaus

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If Mike Bossy wasn't plagued with injuries, he would've blown away the goal record in the NHL. He was that good.
 

tabness

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In any case, if you are pursuing this line of argument, you agree with me that the best goal scorer is not simply the one who scored the most regular season goals. I’ve chosen to narrow in on finding the “best” by looking at how they actually scored in games where they were highly motivated to win, not chase statistics. You may choose to find the best by imagining how they would perform if they chose to chase statistics. I for one prefer when hockey is played to win, not chase individual statistics.

Does the focus on the important teams/times really show Bossy is better though? Yes Gretzky's big numbers have a huge portion of blowout goals (but honestly, Bossy isn't the best example to compare against Gretzky here, maybe Brett Hull instead), yes he scores a lot against bad teams, but even narrowing it down to just game tying/go ahead goals, or goals against good teams, or we can look at road even strength goals, and so on, it seems Gretzky in his best few seasons still pulls ahead of Bossy.
 

overpass

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Does the focus on the important teams/times really show Bossy is better though? Yes Gretzky's big numbers have a huge portion of blowout goals (but honestly, Bossy isn't the best example to compare against Gretzky here, maybe Brett Hull instead), yes he scores a lot against bad teams, but even narrowing it down to just game tying/go ahead goals, or goals against good teams, or we can look at road even strength goals, and so on, it seems Gretzky in his best few seasons still pulls ahead of Bossy.

Fair point. Gretzky may still be ahead of Bossy for the early 1980s regular season, even when looking only at goals when the game is close against good teams.

I think Bossy moves ahead based on his playoff and international goal scoring, especially against top teams and not counting blowouts.

In the world of professional basketball, anyone who compares and rank the top players puts a lot of weight on playoff performance. The NBA has a long regular season, and most players don’t go all out for 82 games. Opposing defences don’t play as hard and don’t game plan against you like they do in the playoffs. Everyone knows Lebron has paced himself in the regular season since 2014 or so before going hard in the playoffs. Kawhi in 2019 was another great example...very good in the regular season, but absolutely incredible in the playoffs when his ability to score against locked in playoff defences became invaluable. If you’re looking at regular season performance only, you might think James Harden was in Michael Jordan territory as a scorer, but when you look at the postseason it’s clear he wasn’t.

I think the NHL in the first half of the 1980s was similar to the NBA. 16 of 21 teams made the playoffs, and it was a long regular season. Players and teams played themselves into shape over the course of the season. Wayne Gretzky was a bit of an exception because he had exceptional conditioning and endurance, and he just seemed to be wired to go all out to score for 60 minutes of every game. I don’t think he had selfish motives, I think it’s just who he was, but the result was that he wasn’t quite as far above the rest of the league as his regular season scoring would suggest. When you look at playoff scoring and you look at timely scoring in the playoffs, you realize Mike Bossy and Mark Messier weren’t so far behind Gretzky…and in fact Bossy was ahead when you look only at goal scoring.
 

Stephen

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Maybe the words I used aren't the best or most familiar, but I'm sure you're familiar with the phenomenon. Call it tight-checking or positional play vs wide-open play if you want. Ther

Structured/tight-checking/positional play
  • Players have clear responsibilities to defend and take away space, and execute these responsibilities. Especially when it comes to protecting the scoring area in front of the net.
  • 5-on-5 is not always like this, but is more likely to be so. Partly because of the simple fact that there are more players on the ice and there is less space to maneuver. Also because defending with 5 players is the most common situation and every team will have a defensive system to defend with 5 players. Either team can decide to turn the game into a tight-checking/structured game at 5-on-5.
  • 5-on-4 is often more structured/positional play as well as compared to 4-on-4, because the defending team with 4 players will drop into a defensive shell and protect the slot, rather than attacking and getting caught up ice.
  • If the defending teams execute well and prevent odd-man rushes against, goals are more likely to be scored off the cycle or off extended offensive possession breaking down the defence.
Chaotic/wide open/read and react play
  • There is more open ice for the attackers. Defenders have to read and react to the situation and may not have close teammate support.
  • Examples include 4-on-4, 3-on-3, 3-on-4, 4-on-3 play, where Gretzky scored a lot of goals. Defences weren't as practiced in these situations, had fewer players to support and protect the goal, and Gretzky was better than anyone at out-thinking these scrambling defences and getting the puck into high danger scoring areas.
  • Another common situation is attacking against the run of play when the other team is pressing up. Scoring insurance/blowout goals in the third period, scoring shorthanded goals, scoring empty net goals. All leading to chances off the rush and opportunities to get into high danger scoring areas rather than attacking a set defence with 5 men back. Gretzky was the most dangerous scorer in history in these situations, at least in the regular season...but top teams could limit the danger by by avoiding turnovers.
  • Goals are more likely to be scored on the rush.
I'll give an example of a more recent player who had very different value in these situations. Erik Karlsson in 2011-12 was an exceptional player in chaotic/wide open play. But he wasn't as good in structured/tight-checking/positional situations. This weakness meant the Rangers were able to neutralize his offence in the playoffs by dropping all 5 players into a defensive shell for much of the series. Karlsson constantly had the puck on the offensive blueline, but he wasn't able to break their defence down when they were set, and he finished with only 1 assist in 7 games.

Young Karlsson was also a much better defender in chaotic/wide-open play than in structured/tight-checking play. He was a very poor defender when the opposition had clear possession inside his end, and was just about the worst defender in the league when it came to sitting back in a 4 or 5 man unit to protect the net. But he was very good at defending the rush, and at defending on his toes and jumping into puck battles when the opposing team didn't have clear possession or hadn't gained the zone yet. So he was actually quite a good second unit penalty killer, because second PK units get a chance to deny the zone entry and prevent the opposing team from gaining clear possession, but he was awful on the first PK unit because if the opponent won the faceoff and gained possession, he was very poor at defending the slot.

Does that make sense? Do you recognize the types of hockey I'm trying to describe?

No, not really. The 80s Oilers are historical for playing an offensively dominant style dictated by Gretzky and his supporting cast and their brand of hockey was era defining and the pinnacle of that style.

So the idea that Gretzky thrived more in a freewheeling environment while things dried up for him in the goal scoring department doesn’t really describe their M.O. or how they necessarily preferred to play those big games.

The best teams dictate the style of play and when games were dictated by the Oilers on their terms they weren’t trying to gamebreak a 1-1 or 2-2 tie late in the third. They would have blown the doors off much earlier.

Furthermore, if the occasion called for, Gretzky was always able to game break with goals. The OT winner vs Toronto in Game 6 and the hat trick in Game 7 in the third period is a good example.

Finally, even if we bought into the idea that Gretzky was useless in the pressure moments and had to defer to someone else on his line to put the puck in the net, why is the “clutch” factor so important in determining goal scoring? It would seem to imply a situational and aesthetic scoring criteria for all goals which would open up an extra can of worms. Aka do slap shots from distance mean more than a tap in, are top corner rips better than breakaway goals, do opening goals mean more than insurance goals. Do unassisted goals mean more. Are tip ins inherently cheap?
 
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overpass

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No, not really. The 80s Oilers are historical for playing an offensively dominant style dictated by Gretzky and his supporting cast and their brand of hockey was era defining and the pinnacle of that style.

So the idea that Gretzky thrived more in a freewheeling environment while things dried up for him in the goal scoring department doesn’t really describe their M.O. or how they necessarily preferred to play those big games.

The best teams dictate the style of play and when games were dictated by the Oilers on their terms they weren’t trying to gamebreak a 1-1 or 2-2 tie late in the third. They would have blown the doors off much earlier.

Agreed that the Oilers were able to be successful with their attack. Just not as much against strong defensive teams that could protect the slot.

From 1982-83 to 1987-88, the Oilers averaged 5.07 goals/game in the regular season. In 25 Stanley Cup final games, they averaged only 3.52 goals/game, but still won because they were able to play better defence, only allowing 2.80 goals/game.

Furthermore, if the occasion called for, Gretzky was always able to game break with goals. The OT winner vs Toronto in Game 6 and the hat trick in Game 7 in the third period is a good example.

I agree Gretzky was a great goal scorer! You don’t need to convince me. His 1992-93 season is a good example where his playoff scoring was much more meaningful than his regular season for showing how good he was as a goal scorer.

Finally, even if we bought into the idea that Gretzky was useless in the pressure moments and had to defer to someone else on his line to put the puck in the net, why is the “clutch” factor so important in determining goal scoring? It would seem to imply a situational and aesthetic scoring criteria for all goals which would open up an extra can of worms. Aka do slap shots from distance mean more than a tap in, are top corner rips better than breakaway goals, do opening goals mean more than insurance goals. Do unassisted goals mean more. Are tip ins inherently cheap?

Putting the hyperbole aside, I would say clutch goals are better because it takes fewer clutch goals to buy you an extra win. Every goal scored and allowed when the game is tied or +/- one goal has a good chance to be the goal that is the difference between a win or loss. Goals scored and allowed when one team is leading by 3+ may still swing the final result — especially in the 1980s — but are much less likely to do so.

When it comes to style and aesthetic criteria, I can see why you might think that’s an important factor here. I’m not really looking for aesthetics in and of themselves. (Although I could see an argument for that). I value skills that are robust in the widest variety of situations and against all opponents, and especially those situations that impact winning. I do think that players who score “goal scorers goals” and aesthetically look like good goal scorers — such as Bossy, Lemieux, Maurice Richard—tend have goal scoring skills that are more robust against all opposition. But at least for this discussion, I value them for the impact on winning. (I also love to see a beautiful goal scored, but that’s not the basis for my argument).

Again, for an NBA comparison—Hakeem Olajuwon scored a similar number of points to David Robinson in the regular season. But in the playoffs Hakeem was the better scorer, because he had a much wider variety of moves and counter-moves and was better at making tough shots when defences took away the easy shots. I wouldn’t say Hakeem was a better playoff scorer because his scoring was more aesthetically pleasing, rather I would say his scoring was more aesthetically pleasing and more effective in the playoffs for the same reason.

Bossy looked more like a goal scorer than Gretzky, and his goal scoring held up better against locked in top defences and impacted winning championships more. Both because he had a much better wrist shot than Gretzky, with an incredibly quick release and great power and accuracy.
 
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Staniowski

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Bossy, Lemieux, Krutov and Makarov were the best goal-scorers of the 1980s.

They were all better at putting the puck in the net than Gretzky was.

That was a strong decade for goal-scorers. Krutov was probably the best goal-scorer of all the Soviets; Makarov was the best of the Soviet forwards, and a great goal scorer; Bossy the best in the NHL during most of his career; and Lemieux definitely the best goal-scorer in the history of hockey.
 

Staniowski

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Game 7, Stanley Cup. Bossy (or a Hull, Ovi, Lemieux, Howe, Richard) and Gretzky are linemates.

I want Gretzky, even 92 goal Gretzky, making the pass.

Even peak goal-scoring Gretzky was a better playmaker than goal scorer.

Take it for what you will.
Of course you want Gretzky making the pass (or Lemieux)....but we're talking about goal-scoring, and you don't want Gretzky taking the shot (or deking, or whatever)....you want Bossy or Lemieux or Richard, etc. doing it. Because they were better than Gretzky at putting the puck in the net.
 

Staniowski

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As time moves on, I generally feel that bossy's legacy is slowly fading, while Gretzky's legend is still growing....which only makes this argument a more difficult one to present as we move forward.
Yes, Gretzky is still ascending in all-time rankings, etc. because younger generations rank him #1 almost unanimously, especially people who've never seen anybody play.

There are still older generations who think differently, but these people are not involved in rankings; their opinions are not being heard.
 

Staniowski

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Yeah, the argument that Gretzky could've scored a lot more goals if he wasn't so busy passing the puck, seems like an argument-of-last-resort. It's a really weird argument.

The discussion is about goal scoring, and yet the entire argument is about his playmaking?
 

Staniowski

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Gretzky's goal-scoring ability declined very substantially during his career.

After his 23-year-old season ('84-'85), he was top-5 in goals-per-game only once. So, when Gretzky was younger than McDavid and Matthews are right now, he was pretty much finished as an elite goal-scorer.

His goal-scoring declined mostly because his skating and agility declined. (And the increasingly tougher defense being played in the late '80s and through the '90s was probably a more minor factor). He was not able to score goals as easily.

His goal-scoring depended a lot on his skating, much more than Bossy's did. Bossy was much more of a natural goal-scorer than Gretzky was.
 
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The Panther

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with Gretzky, Bossy, Krutov, Makarov on the ice.....I don't think there would've been a single person who didn't think that Gretzky was anything other than the 4th most dangerous goal-scorer among these 4 players.
I didn't even realize there were any hockey people who thought Gretzky was a better goal-scorer than Bossy
Bossy, Lemieux, Krutov and Makarov were the best goal-scorers of the 1980s.

They were all better at putting the puck in the net than Gretzky was.
but we're talking about goal-scoring, and you don't want Gretzky taking the shot
Yes, Gretzky is still ascending in all-time rankings, etc. because younger generations rank him #1 almost unanimously, especially people who've never seen anybody play.
Bossy was much more of a natural goal-scorer than Gretzky was.
I'm starting to sense a (rather desperate) pattern here...
 

Minar

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Bossy, Lemieux, Krutov and Makarov were the best goal-scorers of the 1980s.

They were all better at putting the puck in the net than Gretzky was.

That was a strong decade for goal-scorers. Krutov was probably the best goal-scorer of all the Soviets; Makarov was the best of the Soviet forwards, and a great goal scorer; Bossy the best in the NHL during most of his career; and Lemieux definitely the best goal-scorer in the history of hockey.

Wow. Really odd all these guys were better goal scorers in the 80s than Gretzky yet Gretzky put the puck in the net that decade more than all of them.
 

Minar

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Gretzky's goal-scoring ability declined very substantially during his career.

After his 23-year-old season ('84-'85), he was top-5 in goals-per-game only once. So, when Gretzky was younger than McDavid and Matthews are right now, he was pretty much finished as an elite goal-sco

His goal-scoring declined mostly because his skating and agility declined. (And the increasingly tougher defense being played in the late '80s and through the '90s was probably a more minor factor). He was not able to score goals as easily.

His goal-scoring depended a lot on his skating, much more than Bossy's did. Bossy was much more of a natural goal-scorer than Gretzky was.

Gretzky was pretty much a 50 goal scorer for a whole decade, his first 10 years. How is that not really really good?
 

Stephen

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Yeah, the argument that Gretzky could've scored a lot more goals if he wasn't so busy passing the puck, seems like an argument-of-last-resort. It's a really weird argument.

The discussion is about goal scoring, and yet the entire argument is about his playmaking?

Seems like we're struggling to define what makes a "goal scorer" a goal scorer

-Pure goal scoring totals over seasons and careers? Nope, doesn't really tell the full picture.

-When did you score your goals? 1st period in a blow out victory? Too early. Not enough pressure.

-Empty netter? Too late in the game. You already won.

-Special teams? Not hard enough.

-Too much reliance on skating to score goals. You should have been parked in the slot more.

-You also have all-time playmaking abilities to generate offense and elect to dish off to other Hall of Fame linemates? Get out of here.

-Scored too many goals too early in your career? Sorry.

Honestly, seems like in order to qualify as a true goal scorer you need to satisfy a number of game conditions and aesthetics to qualify: take a wrist shot in the third period of a tied playoff game, preferably not on a rush involving too much skating and chaos. Also, score the goal later in your career as evidence of staying power.
 

bobholly39

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Yeah, the argument that Gretzky could've scored a lot more goals if he wasn't so busy passing the puck, seems like an argument-of-last-resort. It's a really weird argument.

The discussion is about goal scoring, and yet the entire argument is about his playmaking?

I mean - he already scored more goals than anyone else didn't he? He doesn't need any argument at all - for anything?

People in this thread are the ones making weird arguments such as "goals vs set defense" and the likes. Gretzky scored more goals than anyone in playoffs or regular season. Head to head vs Bossy he outscored him by a lot, repeatedly. We don't even need to mention the existence of assists to make a case for Gretzky above Bossy.

If you want to start introducing things like "set defense" and the likes - it's only fair to also consider that Gretzky's main focus was usually his playmaking. Pretty astounding that he still scored more goals than anyone else
 
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johan f

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I shall be frank, to claim another player was better goal scorer than Gretzky is like saying earth is flat.
 

Yozhik v tumane

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Gretzky was pretty much a 50 goal scorer for a whole decade, his first 10 years. How is that not really really good?

When did someone say he wasn’t a really really good goal scorer? Being the best, second best or fourth best goal scorer is all really really good. The arguments for Bossy aren’t slights towards Gretzky, we all know whatever he would have lacked in goal scoring he more than made up for in playmaking: the discussion is who was the better pure goal scorer of the two, and there are well-argumented cases for Bossy made here.
 

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