ContrarianGoaltender
Registered User
I don't think the premise of this question is valid. Goal scoring is more of a "macro skill", an end result of a bunch of other micro skills. You named some - stickhandling, zone entries, etc. No, of course Gretzky isn't the best at every micro skill.
But the macro skill of goalscoring - i.e. put simply, how good a player is at scoring goals, is based on a number of micro skills. How good a player is at scoring goals depends on, among other things:
- the player's shot power
- their shot accuracy
- their ability to vary their shot either as warranted by the situation or just to be unpredictable
- their ability to hide the intentions of their shot
- their ability to stickhandle past defensemen to get into scoring position
- their ability to deke out the goalie if necessary
- their ability to put themselves in scoring position so teammates see them as a good passing option
- their hockey sense to see a play developing and predict where the puck will "end up" and go there
- their ability to deflect pucks on net
- their ability to time their shots so as to make the best use of screens and chaos in front
- yes, even their known ability as a playmaker which psychs out defenders
And so on. There is no one single skill that defines a player as a "good goal scorer" - it's everything combined.
So to answer the question now, is Gretzky better at every single one of those things? no, definitely not, but he was better at enough of them by a large enough degree, that it translated into significantly more goals in his prime.
You could define the better goal scorer of the two as whichever one scores the most when given 100 clear chances in the slot - and maybe Bossy would score more of those - but, like you said, hockey isn't played that way. In the wide variety of situations a hockey player can and does find themselves in, it seems clear that Gretzky was able to be the last one to touch the puck before a goal more than Bossy, while showing the clear ability to have done so even more, if he was selfish.
Completely fair objection. I think we probably have a base-level philosophical difference here, but I am interested in your perspective if you don't mind getting down into the details a bit.
I was curious, as a historian, do you think that @Staniowski 's claim in this thread is accurate that many contemporary hockey observers during the 1980s would have rated Bossy over Gretzky as a goal scorer? And if that is the case, what do you think they were evaluating under "goal scoring" that we aren't today, considering that they pretty obviously didn't think that the raw stats were the primary factor back then, and given that the current HOH consensus seems to be that Gretzky should be rated as superior?
I'm not as good of a scout as many others here, but I'm surprised that you think Gretzky was better than Bossy at most of the things on your list. My immediate intuition was the exact opposite, that Bossy was better at most of them but Gretzky was probably much better at a few of them. (EDIT-Might have misread your post a bit here, could be that we agree).
Also, if we're going so far as to include things like playmaking in a player's goal scoring ability, are there are any offensive micro skills at all that are excluded? Do you think that there is a risk that if we go too "macro" in our definition, that we are no longer rating how good the player is at goal scoring, and instead simply how good that player is at offensive production? And does the "he could have scored more goals" argument go the other way? Like, should I view Alex Ovechkin as a superior playmaker to Nicklas Backstrom in 2007-08 because Ovechkin scored way more goals while being not too far behind in assists, even though he clearly could have chosen to pass the puck more often?
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