Mike Bossy vs Pavel Bure who's the better goal scorer all time?

[MadLuke]

Doesn't hockey reference essentially come that that same per-game conclusion?

Would a bit complicated to know with the schedule moving around, there 80 games season, 48 games season in there, without some effort if you look at their numbers, 94-95 was Bure best year in that regard.

I am not 100% sure Bossy season are boosted to 82 games for his goals but they keep 80 games played i think, so we would need to manually calculate what is going on.

Perhaps you are conflating adjusted stats (factoring in the scoring environment) with extrapolations for missed games (pretending a player had a characteristic that they did not have), but that is a mistake.

If the conversation is about who was better to put the puck in the net during a game you do not need to extrapolate for missed game.

Put it that way, are you certain Ovechkin score more than 11 goals if he was playing on team Canada 1987 instead of him ?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Would a bit complicated to know with the schedule moving around, there 80 games season, 48 games season in there, without some effort if you look at their numbers, 94-95 was Bure best year in that regard.

I don't think that's going to be all that significant of a difference.

I am not 100% sure Bossy season are boosted to 82 games for his goals but they keep 80 games played i think, so we would need to manually calculate what is going on.

Again, you're talking about a 2.5% difference. At that point our precision is exceeding our accuracy.

Regardless, the hockey reference equation (IIRC) is supposed to factor in games per season and equate to a standard of 82.

 

[MadLuke]

Again, you're talking about a 2.5% difference. At that point our precision is exceeding our accuracy.

coming from someone that use 72 > 71 to say Ovechkin peak season > Lemieux peak season that rich.

yes for the 82->80, but for a lockout season that start to get big (for player with really short career).

Regardless, the hockey reference equation (IIRC) is supposed to factor in games per season and equate to a standard of 82.

Yes that what make complicated using their result per game, you need to refactor back, Weiland scored 70 adjusted goals in 44 games in 1930, they mean a 70 goals in a 82 game season. It get a bit complicated for Bossy-Bure when season game change during their career, I am sure it is close looking at it, which keep the Bossy vs Bure alive, and put the answer it is close, Bossy had more the chance to do it and did it, so all time he is obviously the higher scorer, who was better at scoring goal, pick the one you like, Bure as a really good argument to be the best ever at it.

or an other way to say it, no way the Islanders trade Bossy for Bure (that a cheap shot considering the 4 cups, they probably do not trade him for Jagr either...., so meaningless here) and the 1994 Canucks keep Bure.

 

[Midnight Judges]

coming from someone that use 72 > 71 to say Ovechkin peak season > Lemieux peak season that rich.

If you want to call that a draw, I'm fine with it. I think I said that before too.

 

[Gorskyontario]

If you want to call that a draw, I'm fine with it. I think I said that before too.

I'm of the opinion that madluke was proven right, infact.

 

[Killswitch]

If I was putting together a team I'd want Bossy. If I wanted to be entertained I'd want Bure.

 

[authentic]

That's still super high ice time for a forward, thanks for looking it up.

No different then Jagr played some years, Gretzky and Lemieux averaged more ice time than Bure on a regular basis.

 

[Gorskyontario]

No different then Jagr played some years, Gretzky and Lemieux averaged more ice time than Bure on a regular basis.

Those guys were all way better than Bure and dominated the play more.

 

[MadLuke]

Are we debating if those Panthers team would have been better if Bure played less ? Or is there any other time that Bure played a special amount of minutes ?

https://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1998_skaters.html#stats::points

Bure is exactly in line with your typical top 20 pts forward, otherwise no ?

 

[67 others]

Scroll down to the "miscellaneous" table and look under "adjusted."

Mike Bossy Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Salary, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Mike Bossy. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft, salary and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Pavel Bure Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Salary, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Pavel Bure. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft, salary and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Bure has 7 seasons that exceed adjusted 34 goals. His 60 goal 1993 season adjusts to 49.

Adjusted stats are just hypothetical pencil guesswork designed to demean older generations lol

The truth is nobody had any idea how superstar players might adjust for era. Bossy was so good my guess is he adjusts just fine and still tears up goalscoring

 

[MadLuke]

Adjusted stats are just hypothetical pencil guesswork designed to demean older generations lol

Not really sure of that premise, as the older generation that played in 4x-50-70 games season in a very low scoring NHL could benefit from some adjusted stats,

Of the top 50 leaders in non-adjusted goals, 9 started to play before 1970, adjusted you go up to 11.

Howe get a boost over a recent generation like Gretzky, Richard goes from #33 to #11.

 

[Run the Gauntlet]

Do you realize Bossy is winning the poll 52-13? lol

The poll is subjective, people tend to vote on emotion not on facts.
If you look at HR stats they are almost even in ability. Also, Bure played in a more advanced league than Bossy, with lesser teammates.
I will go with Bure on this one.

 

[MadLuke]

with lesser teammates.

That true and fair (specially when people point out playoff volume difference)

But as a note, Bossy was still scoring 60 goals-120 pts by the tail end of isles being a powerhouse:

1985-86 New York Islanders Roster, Stats, Injuries, Scores, Results, Shootouts | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the latest New York Islanders Roster, Stats, Injuries, Scores, Results, Shootouts and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

They had an average offense(around middle of the pack ranked, couple % higher than the league average) that year.

Potvin was still good in 86, but nothing special, about to retire and got 0 Norris vote.
Trottier was still good, but nothing special has first liner goes anymore.

Bossy pretty much had exactly same shooting percentage to the decimal, shoot volume and same goal scored versus when both were superstar.

 

[Gorskyontario]

The poll is subjective, people tend to vote on emotion not on facts.
If you look at HR stats they are almost even in ability. Also, Bure played in a more advanced league than Bossy, with lesser teammates.
I will go with Bure on this one.

Ok, but the fact is Bossy has better results, ppg, gpg ect.

 

[BarnabyJones PI]

That true and fair (specially when people point out playoff volume difference)

But as a note, Bossy was still scoring 60 goals-120 pts by the tail end of isles being a powerhouse:

1985-86 New York Islanders Roster, Stats, Injuries, Scores, Results, Shootouts | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the latest New York Islanders Roster, Stats, Injuries, Scores, Results, Shootouts and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

They had an average offense(around middle of the pack ranked, couple % higher than the league average) that year.

Potvin was still good in 86, but nothing special, about to retire and got 0 Norris vote.
Trottier was still good, but nothing special has first liner goes anymore.

Bossy pretty much had exactly same shooting percentage to the decimal, shoot volume and same goal scored versus when both were superstar.

Some people - not all - act like Bossy was a passenger, but his teammates benefited tremendously with him on the team, and especially if you played on the same line with him. In his 9 "healthy" seasons:

Trottier with Bossy

Tonelli and Sutter with Bossy in 1984-85

Trottier was huge for Bossy, but Trottier's production jumped up playing with Bossy, which would coincide with his being in the mix for the Hart trophy and winning it. Trottier only passed the 100 point barrier playing with Bossy, same for Sutter and Tonelli. Look at their shooting percentages.

Article from January 19th, 1981 (Sports Illustrated)

"He's a devoted family man who has said he will retire at the age of 30 if he feels that hockey takes too much away from life with his wife, Lucie, and 16-month-old daughter, Josiane."

"Bossy wants to be recognized as an all-round player: for his excellent playmaking ability (last Tuesday night he failed to score a goal in the Islanders' 6-3 win over Toronto but nevertheless set a club record by assisting on all six goals) and his improved checking and defense as well as his goal-scoring. It bothers him that he has never been a first-team All-Star in the NHL, not even in 1978-79 when he had those 69 goals; Lafleur has been the All-Star right wing the last six seasons. Bossy believes he has the ability to dominate a game for shift after shift after shift, like Lafleur, but is convinced that the Islanders' defensive style restricts him. He also believes that too many people consider him to be just a lucky stiff, that anyone could score 50 or 60 goals playing alongside Trottier, with whom Artoo Detoo could probably score 25."

 

[67 others]

That true and fair (specially when people point out playoff volume difference)

But as a note, Bossy was still scoring 60 goals-120 pts by the tail end of isles being a powerhouse:

1985-86 New York Islanders Roster, Stats, Injuries, Scores, Results, Shootouts | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the latest New York Islanders Roster, Stats, Injuries, Scores, Results, Shootouts and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

They had an average offense(around middle of the pack ranked, couple % higher than the league average) that year.

Potvin was still good in 86, but nothing special, about to retire and got 0 Norris vote.
Trottier was still good, but nothing special has first liner goes anymore.

Bossy pretty much had exactly same shooting percentage to the decimal, shoot volume and same goal scored versus when both were superstar.

We already knew this from them putting Sutter, a 45 point defensive c, as Bossy's C in 85

Bossy could elevate and score with anyone

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Bossy scored 58 goals and 117 points and turned Sutter, a 45 point defensive depth center, into a 100+ point player the year Trottier was too injured to play his usual role lol

This particular Bossy/Yzerman was able to take a depth 40 point center like Sutter and turn him into a 100+ point scorer. I didn't see Bure doing that with equivalent centers

We already knew this from them putting Sutter, a 45 point defensive c, as Bossy's C in 85

Bossy could elevate and score with anyone

ok i can’t let this stand anymore

brent sutter was not a 40/45 pt scorer

in his first three years, he scored:

1. 43 pts in 43 games as a rookie

2. a sophomore slump 40 pts over a full season

3. 49 pts in 69 games

he is 19, 20, and 21 years old in those seasons. so he scores 40 once, then scores at above a 55 pt pace (averaging over his post-bossy seasons 69 pts/80) through his age 30 year.

was he primarily an excellent two-way center who leaned more on the defensive side than offensive? absolutely. did bossy boost a 21 year old sutter to a massive outlying career year? undoubtedly. but was sutter a 40/45 pt scorer? would anybody ever call him a “depth” player?

i think we can make the point without needlessly mischaracterizing players.

 

[VanIslander]

Bossy has clearly the better shot; Bure has clearly the better speed on counterattack and deke.

One had Trottier as his pivot on most shifts...

The thing is: Bure rarely follows through on the forecheck, plus he has a habit of vulture-like circling center ice (as Ronning also did in Vancouver - though Cliff backchecked like a hounddog).

Better shot? ... a reductionist analysis to one aspect of their game. I'll bow out.

 

[67 others]

ok i can’t let this stand anymore

brent sutter was not a 40/45 pt scorer

in his first three years, he scored:

1. 43 pts in 43 games as a rookie

2. a sophomore slump 40 pts over a full season

3. 49 pts in 69 games

he is 19, 20, and 21 years old in those seasons. so he scores 40 once, then scores at above a 55 pt pace (averaging over his post-bossy seasons 69 pts/80) through his age 30 year.

was he primarily an excellent two-way center who leaned more on the defensive side than offensive? absolutely. did bossy boost a 21 year old sutter to a massive outlying career year? undoubtedly. but was sutter a 40/45 pt scorer? would anybody ever call him a “depth” player?

i think we can make the point without needlessly mischaracterizing players.

Sutter in the 13 following years, never scored even 70 points in a season again mate. All in the high scoring era

If you got a guy above denigrating Bossy's goal scoring finishes because they happened in the 80s and they "don't count as true 50 goal , 100 point seasons," and claiming Trottier made Bossy, then his logic needs to be applied equally to the Sutter year in language he is using. Note that he completely ducked replying to the fact that Bossy was able to do the same output with a depth center. If trottier "made" Bossy, then he needs to answer how Bossy was able to do it with a far lesser player than Trottier without missing a beat