Mike Bossy vs Pavel Bure who's the better goal scorer all time?

[overpass]

Bossy gets overrated due to playing entirely in the high scoring era. Most of his 50 goals seasons are more like 40-something goal seasons in an average NHL scoring environment with approximately 3 GPG per team.

When you review the preponderance of the data, it's pretty obvious that Bossy doesn't belong in the conversations he's routinely put into.

Bossy also played in the four line era, on a four line team, for one of the few coaches who expected his stars to play two ways. It was well recognized while Bossy was playing that he could have put up bigger numbers if Al Arbour had given him the chance.

 

[MadLuke]

4 line scoring is important here, gpg adjustement could loose a bit, by my method attempt back in the days, without surprise, you end up too close to call between the 2, which does not help much, but

fullName	count(season)	totalGamesPlayed	TotalAdjGoals	averageSeason	adjGPG
Maurice Richard	18​	978​	968​	53.8​	0.99​
Alex Ovechkin	16​	1197​	1146​	71.6​	0.96​
Mario Lemieux	17​	915​	820​	48.2​	0.9​
Pavel Bure	12​	702​	627​	52.3​	0.89​
Bobby Hull	16​	1063​	932​	58.2​	0.88​
Steven Stamkos	13​	841​	705​	54.2​	0.84​
Mike Bossy	10​	752​	625​	62.5​	0.83​
Brett Hull	19​	1269​	983​	51.7​	0.77​
Gordie Howe	26​	1767​	1338​	51.5​	0.76​
Bernie Geoffrion	16​	883​	675​	42.2​	0.76​

For all the other name on that list, there need some post prime or pre-prime consideration, but both Bure-Bossy exploded out of the block and retired early.

Bure did not play enough in the playoff to build a case either way, doing well enough when he did to say maybe he has Bossy resume.... but in those case Bossy actually did it., so in term of all-time ranking that not an big issue to put him ahead, who was better at scoring goal, that a different question.

 

[67 others]

Bossy gets overrated due to playing entirely in the high scoring era. Most of his 50 goals seasons are more like 40-something goal seasons in an average NHL scoring environment with approximately 3 GPG per team.

When you review the preponderance of the data, it's pretty obvious that Bossy doesn't belong in the conversations he's routinely put into.

Lol. So what do you rate Bossy's 69, 68, 64, 61 and 60 goal seasons as?

1992-93 was like the highest scoring season of all time on average, so I guess we deduct that 60 goal season from Bure. Leaving him with 4 seasons in his career where he scored over 34 goals lol

 

[Sentinel]

He won two rockets two years before he retired. He also only played like 39 games in his last season.

Bossy was clearly superior as a player, scorer, everything.

Those two years made all the difference.

Bossy was more consistent. Bure had a higher ceiling.

 

[authentic]

Those teams were lousy because Bure was playing 30 minutes a night without putting any effort into defense, or team play.



That's pretty impressive that Bure managed to exit the first round one more time than Bossy had 17 goals.

He wasn’t playing 30 minutes a night. May have only happened on very rare occasions.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Bossy was more consistent. Bure had a higher ceiling.

If that's true why was Bossy more consistent, and peaked higher?

He wasn’t playing 30 minutes a night. May have only happened on very rare occasions.

Pretty sure they had him cherry picking for 30 mins a night on those panthers teams. If you want to look it up I would be interested.

 

[authentic]

If that's true why was Bossy more consistent, and peaked higher?



Pretty sure they had him cherry picking for 30 mins a night on those panthers teams. If you want to look it up I would be interested.

I already have, his average ice time was around 25 minutes. You can check it out on nhl.com

Bure’s peak was a little better in goal scoring I think but it was very close either way.

 

[Gorskyontario]

I already have, his average ice time was around 25 minutes. You can check it out on nhl.com

Bure’s peak was a little better in goal scoring I think but it was very close either way.

That's still super high ice time for a forward, thanks for looking it up.

 

[jj cale]

Neither of these is even in the Top5.

Ovechkin / Gretzky
Hull Sr / Esposito / Howe / Richard
Hull Jr / Lemieux / Bossy
Bure
Kurri / McDavid / Selanne

In terms of pure goal scoring ability no name mentioned here is as good as Lemieux.

Gretzky, O.V, Bossy..........you name him, none of them.

 

[67 others]

In terms of pure goal scoring ability no name mentioned here is as good as Lemieux.

Gretzky, O.V, Bossy..........you name him, none of them.

Shame Mario's style lead to the injuries which lessen his totals.

 

[Primary Assist]

Bossy in a convincing win. Not a bad thread idea OP since it's garnered a good discussion, but this is like asking to choose the better playmaker between Gretzky and Oates. Two of the best ever, unquestionably, but with one obvious answer.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Lol. So what do you rate Bossy's 69, 68, 64, 61 and 60 goal seasons as?

1992-93 was like the highest scoring season of all time on average, so I guess we deduct that 60 goal season from Bure. Leaving him with 4 seasons in his career where he scored over 34 goals lol

Scroll down to the "miscellaneous" table and look under "adjusted."

Mike Bossy Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Salary, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Mike Bossy. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft, salary and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Pavel Bure Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Salary, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Pavel Bure. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft, salary and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Bure has 7 seasons that exceed adjusted 34 goals. His 60 goal 1993 season adjusts to 49.

 

[Midnight Judges]

In terms of pure goal scoring ability no name mentioned here is as good as Lemieux.

Gretzky, O.V, Bossy..........you name him, none of them.

Ovechkin has a higher peak season, a much longer prime, and way higher longevity.

Ovechkin led the NHL in goals 9 times. Mario did that 3 times.

Lemieux doesn't even have the highest raw goal total or the highest adjusted goal total of his own era (Ovechkin has both). How could the best goal scorer ever not even have the best goal scoring season of his own era, let alone of all time?

 

[jj cale]

Shame Mario's style lead to the injuries which lessen his totals.

The era he played in played a large part in his injuries too, I'm sure you;e seen the videos........there are players hanging all over the guy and he got beat to heck, you would never see that happen to him in todays game.

 

[Midnight Judges]

If that's true why was Bossy more consistent, and peaked higher?

Easy. Your supposition here is unsupported.

The objective evidence points in the other direction in terms of peak, and has them basically a tie in terms of consistency.

 

[jj cale]

Ovechkin has a higher peak season, a much longer prime, and way higher longevity.

Ovechkin led the NHL in goals 9 times. Mario did that 3 times.

Lemieux doesn't even have the highest raw goal total or the highest adjusted goal total of his own era (Ovechkin has both). How could the best goal scorer ever not even have the best goal scoring season of his own era, let alone of all time?

Mario had 85 goals in a season where he missed 4 games to boot so Ovechkin didn't have a higher peak season, he also didn't focus exclusively on scoring goals like Ovechkin did, this was a guy who the year he got 85 he also had 114 assists. If he had wanted to focus on being the most prolific goal scorer of all time don't worry.............that's what he would have been.

When talking about pure natural goal scoring ability, the ability to beat you in so many ways with so many tools and looks,, which is what I was talking about................it's Lemieux,

He's the best that's ever played in that regard.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Easy. Your supposition here is unsupported.

The objective evidence points in the other direction in terms of peak, and has them basically a tie in terms of consistency.

Do you realize Bossy is winning the poll 52-13? lol

 

[Midnight Judges]

Mario had 85 goals in a season where he missed 4 games to boot so Ovechkin didn't have a higher peak season, he also didn't focus exclusively on scoring goals like Ovechkin did, this was a guy who the year he got 85 he also had 114 assists. If he had wanted to focus on being the most prolific goal scorer of all time don't worry.............that's what he would have been.

When talking about pure natural goal scoring ability, the ability to beat you in so many ways with so many tools and looks,, which is what I was talking about................it's Lemieux,

He's the best that's ever played in that regard.

Ah yes, if only he wanted to score more goals...but he graciously chose not to lol.

And now he'd be the most prolific too, eh? Dude played 62% of a career, but now he's Gordie Howe plus Gretzky, only better.

Man, this imaginary Lemieux is way better than real life Lemieux.

Do you realize Bossy is winning the poll 52-13? lol

Appeal to the masses. (logical fallacy).

It will take evidence to convince some of us.

 

[jj cale]

Ah yes, if only he wanted to score more goals...but he graciously chose not to lol.

And now he'd be the most prolific too, eh? Dude played 62% of a career, but now he's Gordie Howe plus Gretzky, only better.

Man, this imaginary Lemieux is way better than real life Lemieux.

You just don't get it and more importantly you don't want to get it, that's fine.

Carry on.

 

[MadLuke]

Scroll down to the "miscellaneous" table and look under "adjusted."

Adjusting here by considering significant that Bossy played on a 17 player roster some season and 18 some other reason, but not how much power play-publicity break pushed scoring among the first PP unit player in 1993.

82-83 is the first season of the current roster shape, I imagine that why scoring 60 goals in 1983 adjust to an higher amount than 64 the year before... but that point to the strangeness of it all, how much good minute Bossy lost by adding an extra skater do we think ?

Why those 64 goals:

2.	Mike Bossy* • NYI	64
3.	Dennis Maruk • WSH	60
4.	Dino Ciccarelli* • MNS	55
5.	Rick Vaive • TOR	54

They think should adjust to less goals than those 60 the next season:

2.	Lanny McDonald* • CGY	66
3.	Mike Bossy* • NYI	60
4.	Michel Goulet* • QUE	57
5.	Marcel Dionne* • LAK	56

2-10 goalscorer in 1982 averaged: 54.00 goals
2-10 goalscorer in 1983 averaged: 54.33 goals

yet goalscoring among the elite was exactly the same those 2 seasons.

The notion that adding an extra skater to the roster would affect how many goals first liner-first pp unit player versus the rest of the team would score making the 83 player result more impressive seem flawed to me, going from 8 players to 9 that make sense, 17 to 18 less so.

Just before 83 it is an era that HR adjustment can be particularly harsh, according to them Gretzky has no season that his not margin of error higher to 30 years old Mario playing only 70 of the games in 1996, according to them 69 goals in 1996 > 92 in 1982.

Outscoring 5th place John Leclair by 35% > peak second place Bossy by 44%, adjusted by HR Bossy numbers look really unimpressive versus Bure, but they look very unimpressive versus prime John Leclair, so... should we start a LeClair vs Bossy who the better goalscorer all time ?

LeClair: 59-52-49-49-45-44
Bossy..: 58-52-48-48-47-47

Adjusted by elite Canadian goalscorer in the nhl during their play, Bure-Bossy scored at a very similar rate per game.

 

[Michael Farkas]

There's actually a relatively simple number theory test you can do for these...let me explain:

If the fantasy world has Ovechkin 1st - valid.
If the fantasy world does not have Ovechkin 1st - reject.

 

[MadLuke]

Ovechkin has a higher peak season, a much longer prime, and way higher longevity.

The idea that we can say if 65 goals Ovechkin (followed by 4 goals in 7 playoff games) its an higher peak than 85 goals Lemieux (followed by 12 goals in 11 playoff games), because the website HRreference put the number 72 next to one and 71 next to the other should sound a bit ridiculous, HR does not tell you, 72 ~= 71

That may very much be the case, and it is impressive considering Mario only missed 4 games, but that an opinion that can be right or wrong.

Mario was an Top goal scorer in the nhl from what 85 to 01, Ovechkin do kill him on volume, but in term of proving via longevity that his not lucky to have played in league particularly fitted for his style of goalscoring, Mario from the Q, to Intl hockey, to 80s hockey, to 90s, 00s, not that there was much doubt that a 6foot5 that can score in pretty much every way ever thought of would have issue.

A lot of talk is about the greatest goalscorer ever and not when they had to get a goal on the ice against players, with players, who was the better player at putting the puck in the net.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Adjusting here by considering significant that Bossy played on a 17 player roster some season and 18 some other reason, but not how much power play-publicity break pushed scoring among the first PP unit player in 1993.

82-83 is the first season of the current roster shape, I imagine that why scoring 60 goals in 1983 adjust to an higher amount than 64 the year before... but that point to the strangeness of it all, how much good minute Bossy lost by adding an extra skater do we think ?

Why those 64 goals:

2.	Mike Bossy* • NYI	64
3.	Dennis Maruk • WSH	60
4.	Dino Ciccarelli* • MNS	55
5.	Rick Vaive • TOR	54

They think should adjust to less goals than those 60 the next season:

2.	Lanny McDonald* • CGY	66
3.	Mike Bossy* • NYI	60
4.	Michel Goulet* • QUE	57
5.	Marcel Dionne* • LAK	56

2-10 goalscorer in 1982 averaged: 54.00 goals
2-10 goalscorer in 1983 averaged: 54.33 goals

yet goalscoring among the elite was exactly the same those 2 seasons.

The notion that adding an extra skater to the roster would affect how many goals first liner-first pp unit player versus the rest of the team would score making the 83 player result more impressive seem flawed to me, going from 8 players to 9 that make sense, 17 to 18 less so.

Just before 83 it is an era that HR adjustment can be particularly harsh, according to them Gretzky has no season that his not margin of error higher to 30 years old Mario playing only 70 of the games in 1996, according to them 69 goals in 1996 > 92 in 1982.

Outscoring 5th place John Leclair by 35% > peak second place Bossy by 44%, adjusted by HR Bossy numbers look really unimpressive versus Bure, but they look very unimpressive versus prime John Leclair, so... should we start a LeClair vs Bossy who the better goalscorer all time ?

LeClair: 59-52-49-49-45-44
Bossy..: 58-52-48-48-47-47

Adjusted by elite Canadian goalscorer in the nhl during their play, Bure-Bossy scored at a very similar rate per game.

Doesn't hockey reference essentially come that that same per-game conclusion?

 

[Gorskyontario]

Appeal to the masses. (logical fallacy).

It will take evidence to convince some of us.

The evidence is that Bossy had drastically better GPG, and better PPG, and better in the playoffs, and more goals.

 

[Midnight Judges]

There's actually a relatively simple number theory test you can do for these...let me explain:

If the fantasy world has Ovechkin 1st - valid.
If the fantasy world does not have Ovechkin 1st - reject.

I have no need for any fantasies.

Woulda/coulda/shoulda is strictly for the people claiming the guy who led the league 3 times was a better goal scorer than the guy who led the league 9 times.

Perhaps you are conflating adjusted stats (factoring in the scoring environment) with extrapolations for missed games (pretending a player had a characteristic that they did not have).