Confirmed with Link: Meier, Harrington, 3 prospects, Col's '24 5th to Devils for 2023 1st, Zetterlund, Johanson, Okhotiuk, Mukhamadullin, conditional 2024 1st, '24 7th
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Alaskanice
Registered User
My guy, with all due respect, please stop. Okhotiuk is the definition of a meh prospect, and probably fair value in exchange for Hatakka, who's also looked decent in his short NHL action. "Stacked" draft class means a good top-6-10 compared to other years, not that the 25th-best player replaces or becomes a 40-goal scorer. Mukhkamadullin might be great, but he's projecting as a mid-pairing guy right now. He's not Mercer, Nemec, Hughes-caliber, and there's a debate to be had about whether he's as good a return as Holtz would have been.
Come next year's training camp, Sharks fans might feel better about the return. But pretending it's fair value rather than "best available value" isn't helping.
WSS11
Registered User
- Oct 7, 2009
- 6,209
- 5,512
Ive been a trader, marketer, and broker my entire career. Do I know more about prospects and talent eval. than Grier and his staff? No, of course not. If anybody on this board did then that would be a massive problem.
Am I qualified to judge him as a negotiator? Yes I am. I can tell you that he was lead in both the Burns and Timo negotiations. I know I said it before but Fitzgerald executed this trade without giving up a single blue chip piece and almost guaranteed he won’t lose one with the picks he gave up. With 50% retention, that should have cost NJ more draft capital or been a firm “no” from MG on the conditions placed on those picks. I’m not foolish enough to think he could have waited out CAR or NJ for a Mercer or Jarvis but he left some meat on the bone. When trading somebody like Timo, you at least need to bake that upside in. If anything, MG probably should have been the one setting the conditions on the picks (I.e. choice to defer ‘24 to ‘25).
My opinion but I’ll move on.
He’s a RFA. You at least have him one more year which is a nice advantage. I’m betting Timo extends if Fitz was comfortable making a deal without one.
Sigurd
Slavin, our Lord and Saver (AKA Extra Goalie)
Canes fan coming in peace. "Team 1" with the top prospect (Morrow) we are 99% convinced was us before we gave one of our "final offers" according to LeBrun from today, and it's a mega package:
“The Canes tried valiantly over the past 10 days, especially. One of their final offers had six pieces in it, including a first-round pick and a second-round pick, plus prospects. But the one young player they never relented in not wanting to move is Russian blueliner Alexander Nikishin. It might have been a game-changer had Carolina included him in the package, but I don’t blame the Canes for wanting to keep him. They have big plans for him.”
LeBrun rumblings: NHL execs on the Tanner Jeannot trade, and how the Devils outlasted the competition on Timo Meier
The Hurricanes tried valiantly over the past 10 days, especially, to make a Meier trade, and the Golden Knights remained in the mix as well.
theathletic.com
So, for Grier, Carolina had to offer Jarvis or Nikishin, but New Jersey didn't even have to offer Holtz, who is their 3rd best prospect (excluding Mercer who is a roster player). I am 100% sure we offered Scott Morrow, and he's a legit blue chip prospect, and our 2nd best prospect behind Nikishin. Also, I'm pretty sure the "2nd round" we offered was Philly's from next year, and that's basically a late 1st round. Considering the conditions on NJ's 1st round pick from next year, it will most likely be a 2nd round pick, and obviously a late one too (around the late 20s).
You guys also did 50% retention on Meier, and took a $3million dollar + cap dump with Johnsson that doesn't expire until next season. We didn't need to dump a salary and probably didn't need more than 25% retention on Meier. Carolina was willing to trade for Meier without extension talks about a week before New Jersey was based on reports. Also kind of strange Grier didn't want to increase the return by allowing extension talks (I'm not aware NJ actually had any).
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The don godfather
Registered User
I love the prospect mukh. That 1st was sweet and 2nd which might be another 1st plus zetterlund only 23 and contributing now. Really nice package you guys got from devils. Bruins fan here.
Alaskanice
Registered User
It sounds as if you’ve had an exciting career. When you can tell me you were in on those negotiations between Grier and Fitzgerald, I’ll give you your due.
Jargon
Registered User
Canes fan coming in peace. "Team 1" with the top prospect (Morrow) we are 99% convinced was us before we gave one of our "final offers" according to LeBrun from today, and it's a mega package:
“The Canes tried valiantly over the past 10 days, especially. One of their final offers had six pieces in it, including a first-round pick and a second-round pick, plus prospects. But the one young player they never relented in not wanting to move is Russian blueliner Alexander Nikishin. It might have been a game-changer had Carolina included him in the package, but I don’t blame the Canes for wanting to keep him. They have big plans for him.”
LeBrun rumblings: NHL execs on the Tanner Jeannot trade, and how the Devils outlasted the competition on Timo Meier
The Hurricanes tried valiantly over the past 10 days, especially, to make a Meier trade, and the Golden Knights remained in the mix as well.
So, for Grier, Carolina had to offer Jarvis or Nikishin, but New Jersey didn't even have to offer Holtz, who is their 3rd best prospect (excluding Mercer who is a roster player). I am 100% sure we offered Scott Morrow, and he's a legit blue chip prospect, and our 2nd best prospect behind Nikishin. Also, I'm pretty sure the "2nd round" we offered was Philly's from next year, and that's basically a late 1st round. Considering the conditions on NJ's 1st round pick from next year, it will most likely be a 2nd round pick, and obviously a late one too (around the late 20s).
You guys also did 50% retention on Meier, and took a $3million dollar + cap dump with Johnsson that doesn't expire until next season. We didn't need to dump a salary and probably didn't need more than 25% retention on Meier. Carolina was willing to trade for Meier without extension talks about a week before New Jersey was based on reports. Also kind of strange Grier didn't want to increase the return by allowing extension talks (I'm not aware NJ actually had any).
It may come down simply to Grier and his staff liking Mukh more than (maybe) Morrow. I think they’re pretty high on Zetterlund too.
themelkman
Always Delivers
I have seen you talk about Mukh alot. Have you seen a lot of him in russia?
Interested because most fans (including devils havent really)
Thinking about it now Grier did a great job in getting pieces who will help the Barracuda for years to come. Unfortunately he seems to have forgotten he is the GM of the Sharks who play in the NHL.
themelkman
Always Delivers
I think it comes down to the restCanes fan coming in peace. "Team 1" with the top prospect (Morrow) we are 99% convinced was us before we gave one of our "final offers" according to LeBrun from today, and it's a mega package:
“The Canes tried valiantly over the past 10 days, especially. One of their final offers had six pieces in it, including a first-round pick and a second-round pick, plus prospects. But the one young player they never relented in not wanting to move is Russian blueliner Alexander Nikishin. It might have been a game-changer had Carolina included him in the package, but I don’t blame the Canes for wanting to keep him. They have big plans for him.”
LeBrun rumblings: NHL execs on the Tanner Jeannot trade, and how the Devils outlasted the competition on Timo Meier
The Hurricanes tried valiantly over the past 10 days, especially, to make a Meier trade, and the Golden Knights remained in the mix as well.
So, for Grier, Carolina had to offer Jarvis or Nikishin, but New Jersey didn't even have to offer Holtz, who is their 3rd best prospect (excluding Mercer who is a roster player). I am 100% sure we offered Scott Morrow, and he's a legit blue chip prospect, and our 2nd best prospect behind Nikishin. Also, I'm pretty sure the "2nd round" we offered was Philly's from next year, and that's basically a late 1st round. Considering the conditions on NJ's 1st round pick from next year, it will most likely be a 2nd round pick, and obviously a late one too (around the late 20s).
You guys also did 50% retention on Meier, and took a $3million dollar + cap dump with Johnsson that doesn't expire until next season. We didn't need to dump a salary and probably didn't need more than 25% retention on Meier. Carolina was willing to trade for Meier without extension talks about a week before New Jersey was based on reports. Also kind of strange Grier didn't want to increase the return by allowing extension talks (I'm not aware NJ actually had any).
Morrow>Muhk
1st = 1st
2nd with chance at a first > 2nd
Zetterlund is probably worth another second
Okhotiuk can probably be played next year and dealt for a 4th next year like Megna
If Carolina made it Morrow and 2 firsts I think they wouldve won it.
Wow. Yesterday ~11 AM some asshat hit a power line with a drone and brought down electricity until 10PM. I was busily putting together a new armoire while it was still daylight out, took hours. I don't really internet on my phone. Kinda crazy to come back to modern times and see my cat's namesake shipped off to somewhere else. (I knew it was likely Timo got traded, just timing with the blackout)
What a weird f***ing day!
What a weird f***ing day!
The don godfather
Registered User
I've seen highlights on YouTube I like what I'm seeing there. Very rangy long stick excellent close up gap excellent stick to disrupt. I see carlo type with more speed.
Alaskanice
Registered User
I’m glad to get Muk and Oht. Brady and Sieloff are not the ones I want to get excited about. Now we have some high end defense.
STL Shark
Registered User
- Mar 6, 2013
- 4,476
- 5,687
Why are people so hung up on the conditions and retained salary? It's like people would rather Grier not make the trade at all than do the literal thing that was required to be done to make the deal (retain salary on Meier for the remainder of this season).
On the conditional pick, even prime Erik Karlsson had picks with a condition that had to be met. The pick is a 2nd rounder that becomes a 1st if NJD make an ECF in the next 2 years (looking at how stacked that roster is there is a very good chance of that happening - albeit the caveat of this is the playoffs and weird things happen).
The Meier playing 50% is not some galaxy brained idea like many around here seem to think either. That is boiler plate part of basically any conditional pick in the history of the NHL that is based around achieving a certain round of the playoffs.
Sigurd
Slavin, our Lord and Saver (AKA Extra Goalie)
For what it's worth, I was willing to trade next year's 1st round pick too. I wonder if there was even a discussion about that since it was clear Carolina wasn't gonna trade Nikishin, or much less Jarvis.
Also, FWIW, I would've been willing to replace Morrow with Nikishin (he won't be over for another 2 seasons), but like LeBrun, I can't blame Carolina for not offering him instead. Nikishin has broken records in the KHL for a defenseman, and keeping him makes a lot of sense. Tbh though, with NJ not even having to give up Holtz, I wouldn't be happy to trade Nikishin with New Jersey getting more from less with the trade that did expire. Maybe Grier really loves Muhk like you said though; that's the only benefit of the doubt I can think of.
Anyway, after we missed out on Eichel, Tkachuk, Horvat (Vancouver wanted a higher 1st round pick though), and now Meier, it has gotten old, but I have to give credit to our front office that they truly tried hard to get Meier. A little more than I expected tbh.
Alaskanice
Registered User
STL Shark
Registered User
- Mar 6, 2013
- 4,476
- 5,687
Or... Grier sees what NJD and others see in that Holtz is a massive red flag that has seen his value plummet this year because he's shown to not be good at NHL hockey and then had his development ruined by NJD.Canes fan coming in peace. "Team 1" with the top prospect (Morrow) we are 99% convinced was us before we gave one of our "final offers" according to LeBrun from today, and it's a mega package:
“The Canes tried valiantly over the past 10 days, especially. One of their final offers had six pieces in it, including a first-round pick and a second-round pick, plus prospects. But the one young player they never relented in not wanting to move is Russian blueliner Alexander Nikishin. It might have been a game-changer had Carolina included him in the package, but I don’t blame the Canes for wanting to keep him. They have big plans for him.”
LeBrun rumblings: NHL execs on the Tanner Jeannot trade, and how the Devils outlasted the competition on Timo Meier
The Hurricanes tried valiantly over the past 10 days, especially, to make a Meier trade, and the Golden Knights remained in the mix as well.
So, for Grier, Carolina had to offer Jarvis or Nikishin, but New Jersey didn't even have to offer Holtz, who is their 3rd best prospect (excluding Mercer who is a roster player). I am 100% sure we offered Scott Morrow, and he's a legit blue chip prospect, and our 2nd best prospect behind Nikishin. Also, I'm pretty sure the "2nd round" we offered was Philly's from next year, and that's basically a late 1st round. Considering the conditions on NJ's 1st round pick from next year, it will most likely be a 2nd round pick, and obviously a late one too (around the late 20s).
You guys also did 50% retention on Meier, and took a $3million dollar + cap dump with Johnsson that doesn't expire until next season. We didn't need to dump a salary and probably didn't need more than 25% retention on Meier. Carolina was willing to trade for Meier without extension talks about a week before New Jersey was based on reports. Also kind of strange Grier didn't want to increase the return by allowing extension talks (I'm not aware NJ actually had any).
Grier allowed them to talk. Meier wants $9M+ and NJD started at $7M. NJD decided that they think they're close enough that a deal gets done by the time it is needed and they'll table it for now.
You're also wrong on the Johnsson contract. It expires at the end of THIS season. I can continue to poke holes in the argument if you'd like me to go on, but this is all massively half-baked and mostly wrong on all of the details you spouted off.
STL Shark
Registered User
- Mar 6, 2013
- 4,476
- 5,687
I am learning that either I have way too much knowledge on this stuff to not be doing this as my day job or everyone else is just really uninformed. Maybe I just spend too much time reading and following sports (entirely possible).
SteveCangialosi123
Registered User
Zetterlund is a guy you could literally plug on the 4th and he’ll bang and be a good solider in a checking role, or you can plug him on a top line with skill and he will help drive play. Very underrated playmaker, his passing has taken a leap this year. He has a booming shot but his accuracy needs work.
He’s a guy I could easily see you able to flip for another 1st in a couple years if it makes sense in your rebuild, or he can be a key cog if you start winning sooner than you thought.
When he was with Nico and Tatar for a stretch, they were one of the best lines in the entire NHL by some underlying metrics. I’m not blowing smoke, he is an awesome Swiss Army knife that it really stings to lose.
He’s a guy I could easily see you able to flip for another 1st in a couple years if it makes sense in your rebuild, or he can be a key cog if you start winning sooner than you thought.
When he was with Nico and Tatar for a stretch, they were one of the best lines in the entire NHL by some underlying metrics. I’m not blowing smoke, he is an awesome Swiss Army knife that it really stings to lose.
Alaskanice
Registered User
The “hot take,” mentality that our society has grown into is hard to swallow.
One can say whatever without thought or consequence. I didn’t grow up that way.
I’m guessing you’re the same.
Hatrick Marleau
Just Win The Game
- May 16, 2012
- 4,609
- 217
The only problem I have with the trade is the 2024 first being conditional. I think if you get the two 1st + Zetterlund + Muk + Oky that is a really good trade. There is a reasonably good chance that 2024 first conveys. Complaining about the 2023 1st being top 2 protected is dumb. There is basically a 0% chance that happens. The Devils would literally have to lose all of their remaking games. I don’t even care about the 2024 pick being top 10 protected. With as good as New Jersey is and how young they are that protection likely won’t matter. Plus if they somehow are terrible next year then we get a 2025 unprotected 1st. The only reason teams protect picks now is because of DW’s stupidity of not protecting the 1st they traded for Karlsson. As far as not getting a “high upside” prospect, when is the last time a legitimate top 10 prospect was traded for a player with 1 1/2 years of control? Probably Filip Forsberg for Martin Erat which was one of the worst trades in history. We were never going to get Mercer, Nemec, or Hughes just like when the Sharks were interested in Rick Nash and refused to trade a 21 year old Logan Couture or Tomas Hertl. Rick Nash + a 3rd ended up getting Anisomov, Dubinsky, Tim Erixon, and a 1st. Would you rather of had that return?
The retained salary means absolutely nothing, why people think that has any bearing on the trade is beyond me.
Sigurd
Slavin, our Lord and Saver (AKA Extra Goalie)
Haven't read that, but there's been a massive amount of details since late yesterday afternoon. Guess you've kept up a little more than me.
Okay, I was wrong. Still a 3 million dollar plus cap dump though.
I mean this sincerely when I say I know this is a sensitive time for you and the fan base, but take a deep breath. Carolina has had some emotional times management wise back during the JR days too.
I am curious how I'm wrong about anything else though? Did you hear different about Carolina's offers?
This is what a rebuild deal tends to look like on someone good you’re not willing to extend. I don’t think this speeds things up any like Grier said but it’s still better than keeping Meier. Meier wasn’t going to win us games enough to make the playoffs but was going to win us enough games to keep us from getting that sort of talent from the draft. I wish he maintained this mentality as it related to Karlsson as he’s doing more in this regard but I’m sure that’ll happen in time.
Zetterlund is an alright young roster player. A 3rd liner on a good team that’ll get a crack at our top six.
Muk is a solid prospect with a good chance at making our top four at a time when we will have flushed some depth contracts off the blue line.
Okhotiuk will probably replace MacDonald when his deal is done.
If they can use the two picks acquired to get a solid player then it’s a good deal for the team. It’s just going to take a long time. The Sharks need at least four or five top talents from the draft to really turn things around and are still basically at one with their pick in the upcoming draft being the one.
Zetterlund is an alright young roster player. A 3rd liner on a good team that’ll get a crack at our top six.
Muk is a solid prospect with a good chance at making our top four at a time when we will have flushed some depth contracts off the blue line.
Okhotiuk will probably replace MacDonald when his deal is done.
If they can use the two picks acquired to get a solid player then it’s a good deal for the team. It’s just going to take a long time. The Sharks need at least four or five top talents from the draft to really turn things around and are still basically at one with their pick in the upcoming draft being the one.
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