McDavid nearing 1000 points at 27 years old

[McVespa99]

I don’t necessarily disagree, I just have a hard time believing a player would be accepted into the pantheon of “top 3 players of all time” with zero cups.

Are we discussing the top 3 teams of all time or players?

 

[1989]

Are we discussing the top 3 teams of all time or players?

I mean, even McDavid has shown he doesn't care for greatness as an individual player (per his treatment of the Conn Smythe presentation). He's not in it for the most individual awards in a career.

Also this feels like a jinx thread now due to his injury status from last night (though I don't believe it was a very serious injury?)

 

[Nogatco Rd]

Are we discussing the top 3 teams of all time or players?

My original question was whether or not there’s a ceiling on Connor’s ranking if he never wins a cup. Sounds like you and most others don’t believe there is.

It’s my opinion/observation that until recently, cup wins were seen as crucial to an “all time great” player’s legacy — much in the same way that the ranking of NFL QB’s is skewed heavily by # of Super Bowl wins.

As it pertains to NHL players, I find it interesting that that philosophy seems to have shifted dramatically in the last 6-7 years, such that cup wins are no longer seen as a critical piece to a player’s resume.

 

[Beljavskij]

My original question was whether or not there’s a ceiling on Connor’s ranking if he never wins a cup. Sounds like you and most others don’t believe there is.

It’s my opinion/observation that until recently, cup wins were seen as crucial to an “all time great” player’s legacy — much in the same way that the ranking of NFL QB’s is skewed heavily by # of Super Bowl wins.

As it pertains to NHL players, I find it interesting that that philosophy seems to have shifted dramatically in the last 6-7 years, such that cup wins are no longer seen as a critical piece to a player’s resume.

Really strange that it seems to have shifted like you describe it.

The most important aspect of the sport is winning. You have to win to be among the greatest.

Imagine Gretzkys legacy if he never won the cup. He would be considered a stats padder. The guy with godly skills who could never get it done. His leadership would be heavily criticized.

 

[Toby91ca]

I was trying to say that Lemieux would have done it at around 25 instead of 26.

...and it would have been even more amazing cause he played those first hundreds game with Rob Brown, Bob Errey, Randy Cunneyworth etc..5vs5.

The dude did 199 points in 88-89 and the first power play unit was.

Lemieux
Errey
Brown
Coffey
Taglianetti.

...in 76 games...

Agree....Lemieux was very impressive, but Gretzky's stats still make my head spin. If you look at his 212 point year (not his best statistical year for points or points per game, but that year, he had 212pts, then next closest teammates had 105, 89 and 88. The year Lemieux scored 199, the next closest teammates had 115, 113 and 94. You could then start arguing PIT depth dropped off more as you went down the roster though....but this wasn't the super power Oilers yet, this was just Wayne's 3rd year....couple years before their first cup.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

It's a really bad argument that disregards the wide chasm between best and worst player at that time and disregards that the higher scoring nowadays is due mostly to smaller goalie equipment, but the time and space on the ice is the most limited it ever has been (~last 15 years). And then the major one, the 70's and 80's were by and large the 'best of North America. Today we have a much more international pool, drawn from many more countries.

But hey keep gatekeeping.

No one even mentioned the 70s so not sure how that's relevant. Lemieux dominated the 90s which you conveniently left out, which was fully international at that point. This was not an ancient era. Heck Lemieux and Crosby have played together.

 

[T REX]

At some point the guy has done enough and this no cups argument loses steam. Walter Payton never won a championship until he was 31 and he dragged dead ass Bears teams around almost his entire career. There’s only so much one guy can do.

Until? Seriously? You posted that? He won a championship.

It matters. It always has and always will.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Until? Seriously? You posted that? He won a championship.

It matters. It always has and always will.

Didn’t win until he was 31. Is that better? McDavid turns 28 in January. Plenty of time for him still

 

[KrisLetAngry]

This argument will be beaten to death, but that's like saying Ovi wouldn't be up there with the greatest goalscorers of all time because he didn't win a cup. It's a stupid argument.

A cup chanted everything about Ovi

The best win a cup when they are one of the best players on the ice.

McDavid is an amazing player. But he needs to raise the cup.

 

[T REX]

Didn’t win until he was 31. Is that better? McDavid turns 28 in January. Plenty of time for him still

My point is simple...there's a lot of book left to write before you try to write the conclusion.

He may get there. He may not. It's way too early to try to claim he's top 5 all time in anything.

You won't find any anti-McDavid posts in my post history either. I call it like I see it.

 

[crowfish]

A cup chanted everything about Ovi

The best win a cup when they are one of the best players on the ice.

McDavid is an amazing player. But he needs to raise the cup.

A Cup changed almost nothing for my view of Ovechkin. His legacy is 95% greatest goal scorer ever and 5% won a Cup. I viewed him winning a Cup as a great story, but it didn't change how I considered him amongst all-time greats.

 

[crosbyshow]

Agree....Lemieux was very impressive, but Gretzky's stats still make my head spin. If you look at his 212 point year (not his best statistical year for points or points per game, but that year, he had 212pts, then next closest teammates had 105, 89 and 88. The year Lemieux scored 199, the next closest teammates had 115, 113 and 94. You could then start arguing PIT depth dropped off more as you went down the roster though....but this wasn't the super power Oilers yet, this was just Wayne's 3rd year....couple years before their first cup.

I agree but look at this.

Lemieux in 87 88

Pittsburgh Penguins 1987-88 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

The roster, scoring and goaltender statistics for the 1987-88 Pittsburgh Penguins playing in the NHL.

www.hockeydb.com

168 points in 77 games and the second....

Dan F... Quinn...with...79 points...

Healthy Lemieux before 1990 was ...alone..up front

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Both have an insane amount of career points and no cups...pretty much McDavid is Dionne v2.0. With McDavid having much better teams to play on than Dionne ever did.

Just because this point keeps coming up (by multiple people in multiple threads):

• Hart trophy wins: McDavid 3, Dionne zero (1 if we remove Gretzky)
• Hart trophy finalist: McDavid 6, Dionne 3 (no change if we remove Gretzky)
• Pearson/Lindsay trophy: McDavid 4, Dionne 2 (no change if we remove Gretzky)
• Art Ross trophy: McDavid 5, Dionne 1 (2 if we remove Gretzky)
• Top three in scoring: McDavid 8, Dionne 5 (6 if we remove Gretzky)
• First-team all-star: McDavid 5, Dionne 2 (3 if we remove Gretzky)
• Conn Smythe: McDavid 1, Dionne 0

McDavid, in the last three years alone, has more than doubled Dionne's playoff production from his entire career - in almost the same number of games (53 vs 49), and in a lower scoring era.

McDavid has already far surpassed Dionne. I think Dionne is comparable to Joe Sakic (who's ranked around 30th all-time), in terms of regular season offense. Except Dionne was a dismal playoff performer (Sakic was arguably the top playoff performer of his era), and Dionne never became the strong two-way player that Sakic turned into (which pushes Dionne down to something like 60th all-time). McDavid is already so far ahead of Dionne and even Sakic that the comparison is insulting.

 

[Video Nasty]

My original question was whether or not there’s a ceiling on Connor’s ranking if he never wins a cup. Sounds like you and most others don’t believe there is.

It’s my opinion/observation that until recently, cup wins were seen as crucial to an “all time great” player’s legacy — much in the same way that the ranking of NFL QB’s is skewed heavily by # of Super Bowl wins.

As it pertains to NHL players, I find it interesting that that philosophy seems to have shifted dramatically in the last 6-7 years, such that cup wins are no longer seen as a critical piece to a player’s resume.

The 6-7 years ago ago that you’re talking about almost perfectly lines up with a player like Crosby being awarded up to two Conn Smythes, despite arguably not being the best player on his team in two of the Penguins’ Cup runs. Many feared he’d never win one, even though opportunities initially seemed plentiful after Malkin winning it in 2009.

Comparisons grew more nuanced as people recognized the situation McDavid was drafted into, realizing the burden he carries far exceeds anything Crosby faced. They understand that if McDavid delivered only 2 goals and 14 points across 19 Stanley Cup Final games over three Cup wins like Crosby, his team wouldn’t be pulling him to victory.

People have rightfully called out that Howe played only half a game in his first Cup win and claimed three more when there were just five other teams and all it took was beating up average to below average Leafs teams to make the Finals.

Mario had the luxury of a team that could thrive even when he missed nearly half of the games across both Cup seasons, and still defeated the #1 Rangers in a series with him mostly out (and missing 7 total playoff games during this back to back wins), only to face weaker SCF opponents like the #15 seed North Stars.

Fans also acknowledge that players the next level or two down like Yzerman and Sakic wouldn’t have won without stacked, cap-free rosters.

With half a career likely still ahead, McDavid’s time is coming—maybe even within the next eight months. No player of his caliber has ended up Cupless, and it’s unlikely he’ll set a new precedent in that way.

The tired no Cup arguments will end soon, and then we can move on to hearing about the goal posts being moved, and he now needs 2, then 3, and so on.