McDavid nearing 1000 points at 27 years old

[EdmFlyersfan]

The f*** is this argument? Did you just compare Marcel Dionne to Connor McDavid?

They're like two tiers apart.

Both have an insane amount of career points and no cups...pretty much McDavid is Dionne v2.0. With McDavid having much better teams to play on than Dionne ever did.

 

[GRob83]

Both have an insane amount of career points and no cups...pretty much McDavid is Dionne v2.0. With McDavid having much better teams to play on than Dionne ever did.

Dionne doesn't have anywhere near as good of numbers in the playoffs as McDavid. Not even remotely close.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

While I don't disagree with sentiment here, while "breaking Gretzky's assist record" is accurate, probably needs to come with a bit of context. Because they were so good, Gretzky had far less games to do it, 18 or 19 compared to McDavid's 25 and Gretzky's came with far more goals and a cup.

Sure, but to suggest he’s been “outperformed” by anyone is ridiculous

 

[VeteranPresence]

I don't think he will be able to surpass Gretz, Mario or Orr ever, there's a nostalgic perception that'll be near impossible to break.

Even getting ground over Gordie will be a chore in itself.

Ron Hextall also has a Conn Smythe without a cup...



McDavid had a stacked team.

When Dionne retired, he had the second most career points in the NHL (behind only Gordie)...no one thought of him as the second or third best player behind Howe and Orr at that point (from my recollection he wasn't even mentioned in the top 5)...same will happen to McDavid.

Both have an insane amount of career points and no cups...pretty much McDavid is Dionne v2.0. With McDavid having much better teams to play on than Dionne ever did.

I don't know how empty of a life someone must have to have to spend a good portion of it posting about a player who doesn't even play for their favorite team- and who spends almost no time talking about their own team because of how irrelevant they are- but I am guessing it rivals some blackholes. Do better.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

I don't know how empty of a life someone must have to have to spend a good portion of it posting about a player who doesn't even play for their favorite team- and who spends almost no time talking about their own team because of how irrelevant they are- but I am guessing it rivals some blackholes. Do better.

It's a message board for correspondence and discussion...lol. Don't take it so hard as if he's your father.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Going to ask this one out loud here.

Despite being at his peak, age 26-27 years old and coming directly off a 153 point career year, McDavid has been outperformed by a number of forwards over the last two years.

Last year McDavid, largely healthy for the majority of the season, was outperformed by both MacKinnon and Kucherov over a full NHL season.

This year, healthy for the first 10 games, a number of other guys were also ahead of him at the time of his injury. Heck, even a 38 year old Malkin is kicking his butt, so to speak.

Is this the level of play we expect from a “Big 5” level of player at his peak? Or does it show he is more of a Crosby/Jagr level of player who was fortunate enough to string together a few healthy seasons in the right era?

The latter. He is no gretzky or mario that is obvious. Difference between him and crosby has been health n league scoring

 

[x Tame Impala]

All you are doing is adding up points and trophy’s as a subjective way to make a “greatest ever/top x” argument.

I personally find McDavid one-dimensional and boring …I know it is not the popular opinion around here and I honestly do respect his talent level…he just has to cut out the constant whining.

He would be a top 20 player most likely, but it is way early elevating him to top-3/best-ever when he hasn’t accomplished much outside individual awards.

If he had Matthews-level production in the playoffs I would agree with you but the guy…

-set the assist record last playoffs
-won a Smythe without winning a Cup which is insane
-42 points last campaign which is 4th ALL TIME behind only Gretzky and Lemieux
- is a 130 point player in the postseason

At some point the guy has done enough and this no cups argument loses steam. Walter Payton never won a championship until he was 31 and he dragged dead ass Bears teams around almost his entire career. There’s only so much one guy can do.

 

[crosbyshow]

What are you trying to say here? Gretzky getting to 1,000pts at 23 doesn't look that much better than Lemieux getting there at 26 because Lemieux didn't play at 18 or 25? (1) What are you talking about in terms of Lemieux not playing at 25? (2) Gretzky played 45 games at the age of 18 vs. 0 for Lemieux simply because their birthdates. No matter how you look at the stats, Gretzky's is almost beyond comprehension.

Another way to look at it is games played....Gretzky got to 1,005pts in 424 games, Lemieux got to 1,001pts in 513 games. Both impressive, obviously, but Gretzky still got there way faster. On the age thing, one could then argue Gretzky started in the NHL younger at 18, so wasn't as experienced as Lemieux who came in at 19....so Lemieux had the advantage.

Regardless, I simply look at some Gretzky stats and chalk them up as mind blowing....by game 513, he was up to 1,225pts.

I was trying to say that Lemieux would have done it at around 25 instead of 26.

...and it would have been even more amazing cause he played those first hundreds game with Rob Brown, Bob Errey, Randy Cunneyworth etc..5vs5.

The dude did 199 points in 88-89 and the first power play unit was.

Lemieux
Errey
Brown
Coffey
Taglianetti.

...in 76 games...

 

[BlueAzN]

Wild. He'll go down as a top 5 player all time with likely a case to go as high as top 3.

Lol top 3. Yeah okay, no one in this current generation is touching Orr, Lemieux, and Gretzsky. McDavid will be 4 at best if we wins ~3 cups and puts up around 1700-2000 pts in his career.

 

[Beljavskij]

At some point the guy has done enough and this no cups argument loses steam. Walter Payton never won a championship until he was 31 and he dragged dead ass Bears teams around almost his entire career. There’s only so much one guy can do.

Depends on what you want his legacy to be. If he doesn't win the cup he will be "the best player who never won".

If he is to qualify for a top-5 all time spot he needs to win it.

If he should be regarded even higher than that, we are talking multiple cups.

 

[Miri]

I always struggle with the “championships” argument for hockey. Of the major team sports, hockey is almost certainly the one where a single player can impact a championship the least.

Even Gretzky, as unquestionably the best to ever do it, didn’t win without those insanely stacked Edmonton teams.

I get why it matters to those who stand on that hill, but it’s not a QB in the NFL. If one player could win a Cup solo, McDavid would have done it last year. That playoff run was ridiculous, and his team still failed to close it.

It makes no sense for sure, then again neither do these neverending discussions about which player is better, when it comes to team sport.

Other thing, the point totals at the end of the season are as much result of a team play as is winning the championship. Someone had to pass the puck for McD for him to score. He had to pass it to someone capable of scoring to get assist. He is no doubt best offensive player, but he aint getting 150 points playing with 4th line scrubs instead of Draisaitl, RNH, Hyman, etc...

Hence kinda unfair to give all the credit solely to him for his awesome top production, as if every point he produced came off him skating entire rink and finishing topshelf with no help whatsoever, but when it comes to winning the Cup, out of blue thats team effort and team´s failure, so it should not be brought into discussion.

Finally, i would definitely argue the statement hockey is the sport with least impact of a single player, from all major sports. IMO its even harder in soccer.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

Both have an insane amount of career points and no cups...pretty much McDavid is Dionne v2.0. With McDavid having much better teams to play on than Dionne ever did.

A little unfair since Dionne wasn't a good performer in the playoffs, to my recollection.
McDavid has been intermittent in the playoffs, but last year was an exceptional run for him.
That isn't the issue with 97, the larger one is that he coasts on the backcheck, making winnable games for the Oilers within reach for their opponents.

Ultimately, his gaudy points totals may well make him a Top 5 All-time, but if he'd sacrificed some of those for a Selke or two, the Oilers likely have multiple Cups by now.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Going to ask this one out loud here.

Despite being at his peak, age 26-27 years old and coming directly off a 153 point career year, McDavid has been outperformed by a number of forwards over the last two years.

Last year McDavid, largely healthy for the majority of the season, was outperformed by both MacKinnon and Kucherov over a full NHL season.

This year, healthy for the first 10 games, a number of other guys were also ahead of him at the time of his injury. Heck, even a 38 year old Malkin is kicking his butt, so to speak.

Is this the level of play we expect from a “Big 5” level of player at his peak? Or does it show he is more of a Crosby/Jagr level of player who was fortunate enough to string together a few healthy seasons in the right era?

I think that's the main thing that keeps him behind Gretzky and Lemieux. From 1980-87 Gretzky was never outscored by anyone. From 1988-97 Lemieux only lost the art ross if he was injured. They would never be outscored by Kucherov or MacKinnon.

That's what puts him in the Crosby/Jagr tier, even if it is at the top of that tier. Let's not forget Jagr also has 5 art rosses, same as McDavid.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

I think that's the main thing that keeps him behind Gretzky and Lemieux. From 1980-87 Gretzky was never outscored by anyone. From 1988-97 Lemieux only lost the art ross if he was injured. They would never be outscored by Kucherov or MacKinnon.

That's what puts him in the Crosby/Jagr tier, even if it is at the top of that tier. Let's not forget Jagr also has 5 art rosses, same as McDavid.

Well put.

 

[Zalos]

Both have an insane amount of career points and no cups...pretty much McDavid is Dionne v2.0. With McDavid having much better teams to play on than Dionne ever did.

Except McDavid has a ton of individual awards and if he had played when Dionne played, he'd have annihilated Gretzky's records. But ok!

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I think that's the main thing that keeps him behind Gretzky and Lemieux. From 1980-87 Gretzky was never outscored by anyone. From 1988-97 Lemieux only lost the art ross if he was injured. They would never be outscored by Kucherov or MacKinnon.

That's what puts him in the Crosby/Jagr tier, even if it is at the top of that tier. Let's not forget Jagr also has 5 art rosses, same as McDavid.

It's a really bad argument that disregards the wide chasm between best and worst player at that time and disregards that the higher scoring nowadays is due mostly to smaller goalie equipment, but the time and space on the ice is the most limited it ever has been (~last 15 years). And then the major one, the 70's and 80's were by and large the 'best of North America. Today we have a much more international pool, drawn from many more countries.

But hey keep gatekeeping.

 

[crowfish]

Going to ask this one out loud here.

Despite being at his peak, age 26-27 years old and coming directly off a 153 point career year, McDavid has been outperformed by a number of forwards over the last two years.

Last year McDavid, largely healthy for the majority of the season, was outperformed by both MacKinnon and Kucherov over a full NHL season.

This year, healthy for the first 10 games, a number of other guys were also ahead of him at the time of his injury. Heck, even a 38 year old Malkin is kicking his butt, so to speak.

Is this the level of play we expect from a “Big 5” level of player at his peak? Or does it show he is more of a Crosby/Jagr level of player who was fortunate enough to string together a few healthy seasons in the right era?

A couple of things:

McDavid was injured at the start of last year and again at the very end of the year, we don't know how much that affected his production. But despite that injury, Kucherov only narrowly beat him in pts/game despite setting an NHL record for empty net points. MacKinnon played a full extra 1hr of powerplay time than McDavid and still had a lower pts/game. I wouldn't even call that him being outperformed, but they did perform at or near his level in the regular season. The playoffs showed the extra level he on still. It reminds me of 2021 when people were saying Matthews vs McDavid was closer than we thought, and then McDavid had 33 points in 16 playoff games.

And btw, 10 games of players outproducing him this season is completely irrelevant to anything.

 

[Beljavskij]

Except McDavid has a ton of individual awards and if he had played when Dionne played, he'd have annihilated Gretzky's records. But ok!

Big assumption. Since McD would also have to use the same gear as Dionne – he wouldn't be as fast as today. He would use the same training and nutrion as Dionne, he wouldn't be as strong as today. He would use a wooden stick, he wouldn't be able to handle the puck as well as today.

Also, Dionne has some awards including two art rosses, which would have been three were it not for Gretzkys existence and shenanigans.

 

[crowfish]

While I don't disagree with sentiment here, while "breaking Gretzky's assist record" is accurate, probably needs to come with a bit of context. Because they were so good, Gretzky had far less games to do it, 18 or 19 compared to McDavid's 25 and Gretzky's came with far more goals and a cup.

Of course there is context when a Gretzky assist record is being broken, that is the guy who has more assists than anybody else has points. The idea of any of his assist records being broken was never on the table for any player at any point.

And btw, some of that context in in McDavids favour when you consider how much harder it is to contribute to a goal in this era. I wonder how many of Gretzkys assists were on plays that would have a 0% chance of beating a modern goalie.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Depends on what you want his legacy to be. If he doesn't win the cup he will be "the best player who never won".

If he is to qualify for a top-5 all time spot he needs to win it.

If he should be regarded even higher than that, we are talking multiple cups.

I just don’t really see the difference for him individually. His performance couldn’t have been better. If Nurse, Ceci, and Skinner were all even 10% less shitty then the Oilers probably win and McDavid has a Cup.

Again, if he had like 25 points in 23 games or something then I’d agree that he should’ve been better to help his team but that’s just not the case.

 

[crowfish]

Big assumption. Since McD would also have to use the same gear as Dionne – he wouldn't be as fast as today. He would use the same training and nutrion as Dionne, he wouldn't be as strong as today. He would use a wooden stick, he wouldn't be able to handle the puck as well as today.

Also, Dionne has some awards including two art rosses, which would have been three were it not for Gretzkys existence and shenanigans.

Dionne had 1 Art Ross, not 2, and he actually shouldn't have even won that one since Gretzky had the same amount of points in fewer games played. The equipment argument is not a good one. Dionne had the same equipment as everyone else and didn't dominate, McDavid today has the same equipment as everyone else and does dominate.

 

[Beljavskij]

A couple of things:

McDavid was injured at the start of last year and again at the very end of the year, we don't know how much that affected his production. But despite that injury, Kucherov only narrowly beat him in pts/game despite setting an NHL record for empty net points.

The injury argument pretty much only benefits Lemieux.

McDavid has played 90% of the games or more in every season he's been in the league except his first. He's pretty much been available to compete for the awards every year.

Lemieux probably would have a total of 8 or more art rosses (he has 6) had he played 90% of the games between 1987-1997.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

The injury argument pretty much only benefits Lemieux.

McDavid has played 90% of the games or more in every season he's been in the league except his first. He's pretty much been available to compete for the awards every year.

Lemieux probably would have a total of 8 or more art rosses (he has 6) had he played 90% of the games between 1987-1997.

Also, I don't think McDavid has ever suffered from an injury as great as when Gary Suter cross checked Gretz in the back and Gretz was never the same afterwards...

The significance of Suter's hit on Gretzky

Gary Suter's hit on Wayne Gretzky is widely considered a watershed moment that forever altered Gretzky's career, basically ending his super-elite production, especially in terms of goal scoring. What is this claim based on? I haven't been able to find a video of the infamous hit. I read...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Beljavskij]

Dionne had 1 Art Ross, not 2, and he actually shouldn't have even won that one since Gretzky had the same amount of points in fewer games played. The equipment argument is not a good one. Dionne had the same equipment as everyone else and didn't dominate, McDavid today has the same equipment as everyone else and does dominate.

Your are correct. 1 Art Ross. And a runners up to Gretzky the year after.

Though the argument was the he would have shattered Gretzkys records if playing at the same time as Dionne (in which he also would have had the same conditions as Dionne). Wouldn't really argue that McD has dominated in the same way Gretzky/Lemieux dominated.

 

[Nicko999]

When it's all said and done.

McDavid has a legitimate conversation regarding being the greatest hockey player of all time.

I know Gretzky was ahead of his time, but with how much the game has changed, for McDavid to be this far above his peers is absolutely Ludacris.

No one will ever agree on #1. Between Gretzky and Mario. Well, once McDavids career is over.

It'll be a new top 3.

McDavid, Mario or Gretzky.

Ridiculous.

Mcdavid would have solidified as #4 behind Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr at the end of his career.

Higher scoring eras or not, Gretzky was outscoring people by 80 pts. While he had 200+ pts, the second scorer ended up with 120-130 pts. Mcdavid does not have anywhere close that impact.

Lemieux was producing at the same rate as Mcdavid AFTER coming back from cancer and being in his mid 30's. And in the dead puck era...

I like McDavid but there is Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr and then everyone else.