McDavid nearing 1000 points at 27 years old

[McVespa99]

I don’t necessarily disagree, I just have a hard time believing a player would be accepted into the pantheon of “top 3 players of all time” with zero cups.

Are we discussing the top 3 teams of all time or players?

 

[1989]

Are we discussing the top 3 teams of all time or players?

I mean, even McDavid has shown he doesn't care for greatness as an individual player (per his treatment of the Conn Smythe presentation). He's not in it for the most individual awards in a career.

Also this feels like a jinx thread now due to his injury status from last night (though I don't believe it was a very serious injury?)

 

[Nogatco Rd]

Are we discussing the top 3 teams of all time or players?

My original question was whether or not there’s a ceiling on Connor’s ranking if he never wins a cup. Sounds like you and most others don’t believe there is.

It’s my opinion/observation that until recently, cup wins were seen as crucial to an “all time great” player’s legacy — much in the same way that the ranking of NFL QB’s is skewed heavily by # of Super Bowl wins.

As it pertains to NHL players, I find it interesting that that philosophy seems to have shifted dramatically in the last 6-7 years, such that cup wins are no longer seen as a critical piece to a player’s resume.

 

[Beljavskij]

My original question was whether or not there’s a ceiling on Connor’s ranking if he never wins a cup. Sounds like you and most others don’t believe there is.

It’s my opinion/observation that until recently, cup wins were seen as crucial to an “all time great” player’s legacy — much in the same way that the ranking of NFL QB’s is skewed heavily by # of Super Bowl wins.

As it pertains to NHL players, I find it interesting that that philosophy seems to have shifted dramatically in the last 6-7 years, such that cup wins are no longer seen as a critical piece to a player’s resume.

Really strange that it seems to have shifted like you describe it.

The most important aspect of the sport is winning. You have to win to be among the greatest.

Imagine Gretzkys legacy if he never won the cup. He would be considered a stats padder. The guy with godly skills who could never get it done. His leadership would be heavily criticized.

 

[Toby91ca]

I was trying to say that Lemieux would have done it at around 25 instead of 26.

...and it would have been even more amazing cause he played those first hundreds game with Rob Brown, Bob Errey, Randy Cunneyworth etc..5vs5.

The dude did 199 points in 88-89 and the first power play unit was.

Lemieux
Errey
Brown
Coffey
Taglianetti.

...in 76 games...

Agree....Lemieux was very impressive, but Gretzky's stats still make my head spin. If you look at his 212 point year (not his best statistical year for points or points per game, but that year, he had 212pts, then next closest teammates had 105, 89 and 88. The year Lemieux scored 199, the next closest teammates had 115, 113 and 94. You could then start arguing PIT depth dropped off more as you went down the roster though....but this wasn't the super power Oilers yet, this was just Wayne's 3rd year....couple years before their first cup.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

It's a really bad argument that disregards the wide chasm between best and worst player at that time and disregards that the higher scoring nowadays is due mostly to smaller goalie equipment, but the time and space on the ice is the most limited it ever has been (~last 15 years). And then the major one, the 70's and 80's were by and large the 'best of North America. Today we have a much more international pool, drawn from many more countries.

But hey keep gatekeeping.

No one even mentioned the 70s so not sure how that's relevant. Lemieux dominated the 90s which you conveniently left out, which was fully international at that point. This was not an ancient era. Heck Lemieux and Crosby have played together.

 

[T REX]

At some point the guy has done enough and this no cups argument loses steam. Walter Payton never won a championship until he was 31 and he dragged dead ass Bears teams around almost his entire career. There’s only so much one guy can do.

Until? Seriously? You posted that? He won a championship.

It matters. It always has and always will.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Until? Seriously? You posted that? He won a championship.

It matters. It always has and always will.

Didn’t win until he was 31. Is that better? McDavid turns 28 in January. Plenty of time for him still

 

[KrisLetAngry]

This argument will be beaten to death, but that's like saying Ovi wouldn't be up there with the greatest goalscorers of all time because he didn't win a cup. It's a stupid argument.

A cup chanted everything about Ovi

The best win a cup when they are one of the best players on the ice.

McDavid is an amazing player. But he needs to raise the cup.

 

[T REX]

Didn’t win until he was 31. Is that better? McDavid turns 28 in January. Plenty of time for him still

My point is simple...there's a lot of book left to write before you try to write the conclusion.

He may get there. He may not. It's way too early to try to claim he's top 5 all time in anything.

You won't find any anti-McDavid posts in my post history either. I call it like I see it.

 

[crowfish]

A cup chanted everything about Ovi

The best win a cup when they are one of the best players on the ice.

McDavid is an amazing player. But he needs to raise the cup.

A Cup changed almost nothing for my view of Ovechkin. His legacy is 95% greatest goal scorer ever and 5% won a Cup. I viewed him winning a Cup as a great story, but it didn't change how I considered him amongst all-time greats.

 

[crosbyshow]

Agree....Lemieux was very impressive, but Gretzky's stats still make my head spin. If you look at his 212 point year (not his best statistical year for points or points per game, but that year, he had 212pts, then next closest teammates had 105, 89 and 88. The year Lemieux scored 199, the next closest teammates had 115, 113 and 94. You could then start arguing PIT depth dropped off more as you went down the roster though....but this wasn't the super power Oilers yet, this was just Wayne's 3rd year....couple years before their first cup.

I agree but look at this.

Lemieux in 87 88

Pittsburgh Penguins 1987-88 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

The roster, scoring and goaltender statistics for the 1987-88 Pittsburgh Penguins playing in the NHL.

www.hockeydb.com

168 points in 77 games and the second....

Dan F... Quinn...with...79 points...

Healthy Lemieux before 1990 was ...alone..up front