Maybe Tavares is the problem

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Amadeus

Stand Witness
Jun 21, 2004
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I really don't mind him. I still think he's a really good player but I don't vibe with his leadership style. It's too vanilla for me.

We need a leader who holds others accountable and I just don't see that from him.
 
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BraveCanadian

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Jun 30, 2010
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Nylander is a hockey rockstar, coming off of two clutch elimination games. Trajectory is great, good reason to be optimistic about what lies ahead for him. Will be very interesting to watch his career play out.

lawl

He's gonna coast for 8 years just like he did his whole career except the brief period before his contract extension - you heard it here first.
 
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LeafEgo

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Oct 8, 2021
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lawl

He's gonna coast for 8 years just like he did his whole career except the brief period before his contract extension - you heard it here first.
Potentially but that's a pretty pessimistic view of things. Presumably you hope that he just continues to get better year over year, score clutch goals, and steal playoff games for us. Optimistically he's the best 2C in the game for 8 years.
 

BraveCanadian

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Jun 30, 2010
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Potentially but that's a pretty pessimistic view of things. Presumably you hope that he just continues to get better year over year, score clutch goals, and steal playoff games for us. Optimistically he's the best 2C in the game for 8 years.

Super soft, one-dimensional, scoring forwards don't tend to get better year over year in their 30s.

If they move Nylander to C he'll get lit up huge.

Pessimism is just being a Leafs fan at this point.
 

LeafGrief

Shambles in my brain
Apr 10, 2015
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JT is captain on the jersey only. It’s absolutely a huge problem that this team has weak leadership and stripping the C from Tavares is an important offseason move that I would urge management to make.

That the team actually revolves around Marner’s ego is still the bigger problem. Even if we got rid of Tavares, Marner is still the emotional vampire in the room. He’s the one who’s constantly comparing his contract to the others, he’s the one who cries on the bench and in the box, he’s the one who throws tantrums to the media and thinks he’s a god to the fans.

Having a stronger captain to lead Marner would have helped us a ton the last few years, but that horse is fully out of the barn now. This is Marner’s team, promoting Matthews to Captain or even bringing in another outsider won’t change Marner’s position as the central pillar. He has to go for this team to turn the page. JT might deserve a lot of blame in the history books for being the captain who allowed Marner’s ego to go this wild, but that doesn’t change the fact that Marner’s ego is what needs to be fixed today.
 

Trapper

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Nov 21, 2013
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Willie played well, gave us a 1-0 lead late in game #7 but I have not seen anything that tells me he has the ability or will to rise up and win a series like what McDavid is trying to do in the SCF (and without Robin), what Matthew Tkachuk did last year vs Boston and Carolina, what Makin did when Crosby was hurt, what Gilmour did for us in '93, hell what MaCaulay and Roberts did when Sundin was out.
The problem is we are comparing (and praising) Nylander scoring 3 goals because the rest of the core isn’t. So sure, it looks fantastic when the other guys have 1 each.

All 4 forwards on the core have the coma gene, they can just ghost for periods and especially when the series gets tighter in games 5,6 and 7.

If you aren’t scoring, you have to be hard on the forecheck trying to wear the other team down and winning battles on the wall. None of the 4 sustain that either. We don’t need 2 wingers making 12 million. Pick one and retool.
 

notbias

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Feb 16, 2017
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This graphic keeps floating around and it is a dig at Marner and people are using it to show Nylander is clutch.

Does this graphic also mean that Tavares is a solution and not actually a problem?
 

sxvnert

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Nov 23, 2015
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JTs contract + Marners soft playoff performances are the main contributors to the leafs failures. A legit GM wouldn't extend either past this season at any cost.
 
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Ports

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Dec 7, 2017
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I cant totally agree. Nylander was injured and came back to perform well. Mathews had one dominant game and then got sick/injured. No team can carry 4 or 5 guys making that much, especially when they are weak beta males. Hockey is a brutal sport, its not good to have too many soft and gentle, rich and spoiled players if you want to win a cup. This team has 2 years to win, then the whole thing begins to implode. The only over 30 players who ever led a team to a cup was Messier. If the Leafs resign Marner it means they have no intention of ever winning it.
What about the ‘67 Leafs ? They had 9 players over 30 and their goalies were 36 and 40 years old. Different era obviously.

Willie played well, gave us a 1-0 lead late in game #7 but I have not seen anything that tells me he has the ability or will to rise up and win a series like what McDavid is trying to do in the SCF (and without Robin), what Matthew Tkachuk did last year vs Boston and Carolina, what Makin did when Crosby was hurt, what Gilmour did for us in '93, hell what MaCaulay and Roberts did when Sundin was out.
That’s because he doesn’t have the heart of those players. None of them do.
 
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Ports

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Dec 7, 2017
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The problem wasn't necessarily the signing, it was asset management. We got him for free, but then essentially lost Kadri for free as Barrie sucked and Kerfoot was not much better then a average UFA signing. Basically becomes a wash, a very expensive wash.

Had we turned Kadri into a solid prospect or a young D we could use, it wouldn't look as bad imo. I realize Kadri was supposed to be traded for Brodie, who we got for free anyway, I'm talking someone younger.
Or don’t sign JT. Keep Kadri who’d scored 30 goals two years in a row and use the extra $6.5M to sign a good dman. And on top of that save money on Matthews and Marner’s next contracts who knew they were already better players than JT and insisted on being paid like it.
 

Ports

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Dec 7, 2017
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I know the overwhelmingly most popular thing to do these days is to relentlessly criticize all our best players, and I get that some of it is certainly deserved and that the rest is born of a tremendous amount of frustration that we all share as fans of this hockey team, but at the end of the day I still come back to one question:

These players need to be better, absolutely no doubt about it, but as an organization is it more likely that a) you got supremely unlucky and drafted 3 elite level talents who won’t or cannot compete in the postseason or b) that when all of your best forwards consistently struggle to produce offense in the playoffs, maybe that is indicative of fundamental issues in systems and the job you’ve done to support them as well.

I believe we would be capable of winning with any or even all of 34, 88, 16 and 91 leading this team. They need to be better, but management has failed this group as much as the players have on the ice. Whether that’s inconsistent vision, lack of foresight on some young players, goaltending as a whole, defense as a whole, coaching, and not course correcting when the cap was frozen due to Covid.
They’re paid too much of the salary cap. That’s not the players fault but it’s the main reason why they can’t win with them as a group besides being soft ass players who can’t score in the playoffs.
 
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Ports

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Won't win with Tavares making 11 sheets and in your top 6. I like our chances better with Tavares in our bottom 6 earning $3+m and a solid #2C who can get the best out of Willie.
Except he’s not a solid two way centre anymore. He’s a one way opportunistic scorer and faceoff guy who is slow, doesn’t check well and has no physical side to his game. It would be better if they made a clean break and found someone younger, bigger and faster.
 

Ports

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Valid points.

We actually nearly signed Verhaeghe too for like 1 year 1M but we were too tight on cap so we had to sign Vesey instead at 1 year 800k
And traded for Rodrigues from Pittsburgh in the Kapanen trade and then didn’t bother qualifying him that summer so Pittsburgh re-signed him as a free agent. Hyman, Rodrigues and Verhaeghe would sure look good in Leaf uniforms right now.
 
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WTFMAN99

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Jun 17, 2009
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And traded for Rodrigues from Pittsburgh in the Kapanen trade and then didn’t bother qualifying him that summer so Pittsburgh re-signed him as a free agent. Hyman, Rodrigues and Verhaeghe would sure look good in Leaf uniforms right now.

Don't forget McCann
 

Da Mash

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Jul 14, 2022
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Taveres and Marner are the least of our worries. Taveres cap hit will be off the books after this year and he will probably sign a team friendly deal as he wants to stay in TO.

Adding grit didnt help.....adding forwards with experience didnt help. They just stole cap money.

Reiley isnt a #1 D , he is not . McCabe is more of a shut down guy then Reiley ever was. But we need more defenceman that can move the puck and be well defensively. And we need better goaltending.

We need to be faster especially in the bottom six and be better defensively. Reaves and his likes wont help. They become a liability on D. It surprises me if one big check happens all is forgotton but at the end of the year those types give up more goals then they generate and fist pumping after a fight is a clown show IMHO. We had players run over and what did he do ? except yap from the bench?

With all the armour they wear now and most dont take off their visor.....how is that indimidating in a fight. ?
 
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notDatsyuk

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Jul 20, 2018
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Potentially but that's a pretty pessimistic view of things. Presumably you hope that he just continues to get better year over year, score clutch goals, and steal playoff games for us. Optimistically he's the best 2C in the game for 8 years.
The problem is that he has been getting better year over year, he has been scoring clutch goals, and he has been stealing playoff games for us.

That's no reason to expect he will ever do any of those things again.
 
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notDatsyuk

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Jul 20, 2018
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The problem is we are comparing (and praising) Nylander scoring 3 goals because the rest of the core isn’t. So sure, it looks fantastic when the other guys have 1 each.

All 4 forwards on the core have the coma gene, they can just ghost for periods and especially when the series gets tighter in games 5,6 and 7.

If you aren’t scoring, you have to be hard on the forecheck trying to wear the other team down and winning battles on the wall. None of the 4 sustain that either. We don’t need 2 wingers making 12 million. Pick one and retool.
It gets even worse if you look at "when the series gets tighter in games 5, 6, and 7".

Willy with 3 goals, Knies and McCabe with one each, all at ES, and that's it! Matty, Mitch, and JT each managed 1 assist (Matty only played one game).

Willy had 4 hits and 5 blocks (Mitch had 0 and 0), and managed 15 shots (almost twice as many as anyone else, and the only two with 8 each were his usual linemates).

Fortunately, it looks like Tre picked the better winger last year, and even better, he may be the 2C next year, so no $12M wingers.
 
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notDatsyuk

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Jul 20, 2018
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View attachment 885227

This graphic keeps floating around and it is a dig at Marner and people are using it to show Nylander is clutch.

Does this graphic also mean that Tavares is a solution and not actually a problem?
Over that 6 year period, he has certainly outperformed Marner.

When you look at the more recent years, he's fallen off, while Nylander has improved
 
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Roo

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Oct 3, 2005
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I definitely think he is a problem for us. People rag on Marner but Tavares makes more and has performed even more poorly. Getting that cap hit off the books is key. Would be great if we could bring in Lindholm to replace him. Tough to to do cap wise, but it is a bit strange that all the hate is being directed to Marner.
 
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Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
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and thinks he’s a god to the fans.

that is not what he meant. and you guys know it. he was basically saying that the Leafs are put on a pedestal. and they are. unless they are that year's whipping boy, and even then all it takes is a few good games and people forget that until the next mistake. everyone knows Mitch can't articulate himself well in the media. so using that quote to bash him makes no sense. Not to mention to your other point everyone in the league compares their contract w/each other. which is why contract details are made public.
 
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Racer88

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Sep 29, 2020
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that is not what he meant. and you guys know it. he was basically saying that the Leafs are put on a pedestal. and they are. unless they are that year's whipping boy, and even then all it takes is a few good games and people forget that until the next mistake. everyone knows Mitch can't articulate himself well in the media. so using that quote to bash him makes no sense. Not to mention to your other point everyone in the league compares their contract w/each other. which is why contract details are made public.
However he didn’t say pedestal he said God. If that was just an isolated incident it could be explained away but when added to all his other petulant interviews it speaks to his general sense that he can do no wrong

Have you seen Connor Brown the last few games? Do we have anybody comparable in our bottom 6?
Not even close

And traded for Rodrigues from Pittsburgh in the Kapanen trade and then didn’t bother qualifying him that summer so Pittsburgh re-signed him as a free agent. Hyman, Rodrigues and Verhaeghe would sure look good in Leaf uniforms right now.
They sure would but we can’t afford them because of the core 4
 

LeafGrief

Shambles in my brain
Apr 10, 2015
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that is not what he meant. and you guys know it. he was basically saying that the Leafs are put on a pedestal. and they are. unless they are that year's whipping boy, and even then all it takes is a few good games and people forget that until the next mistake. everyone knows Mitch can't articulate himself well in the media. so using that quote to bash him makes no sense. Not to mention to your other point everyone in the league compares their contract w/each other. which is why contract details are made public.
Er, I think that when someone refers to someone as "a god" that's pretty much the definition of putting them on a pedestal. I get that he's talking about kids and adoring fans, but don't think you've really redefined anything here that changes my argument. That he's a bit of a dolt doesn't change the fact that he never seems to demonstrate much in the way of humility, which is part of why my central argument is that his ego is a central driving force in the lockerroom and in management. He never takes responsibility in front of the media, remember when Keefe had to apologize for calling out the core for a bad game? It ain't Nylander who was calling his agent after that one!

I don't believe that Marner is capable of signing a contract for less than Nylander, because his ego can't handle it. Marner's first contract negotiation was a disaster because not only did he want to be paid higher than his comparables around the league, he needed to be close to Matthews.

I think Marner is far more of a central leader on the team than Tavares. Marner is a terrible leader, and I point to our playoff history and his performance in those series as evidence.
 
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cookie

Fresh From The Oven
Nov 24, 2009
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Er, I think that when someone refers to someone as "a god" that's pretty much the definition of putting them on a pedestal. I get that he's talking about kids and adoring fans, but don't think you've really redefined anything here that changes my argument. That he's a bit of a dolt doesn't change the fact that he never seems to demonstrate much in the way of humility, which is part of why my central argument is that his ego is a central driving force in the lockerroom and in management. He never takes responsibility in front of the media, remember when Keefe had to apologize for calling out the core for a bad game? It ain't Nylander who was calling his agent after that one!

I don't believe that Marner is capable of signing a contract for less than Nylander, because his ego can't handle it. Marner's first contract negotiation was a disaster because not only did he want to be paid higher than his comparables around the league, he needed to be close to Matthews.

I think Marner is far more of a central leader on the team than Tavares. Marner is a terrible leader, and I point to our playoff history and his performance in those series as evidence.
I'd argue some of that had to do with Marner being targeted by Babcock. Mitch and his camp were under the expectation that the Leafs would be retaining Babcock's services until 2023 after the guy had signed a first of its kind 8-year $50M contract. The incident in his rookie season, where he was tasked with ranking his teammates' work ethic, is something that could have turned him into a pariah and also something that doesn't seem like an isolated incident either. Unlike Keefe, Babcock rarely gave Marner and Matthews ice time together and I'm assuming that aforementioned ego / lack of humility really got in the way of contract negotiations ala "if he (Babcock) stays here, I'm gonna ask for a million more" or something to that effect.

I also agree with Marner being a terrible leader, but I don't think it's just him. The longest tenured defender on the team frequently escapes criticism, and Tavares's lack of anything resembling emotion is readily brushed aside, while key guys outside of the core like Brodie and Kampf have had some of the worst seasons wearing the blue and white. Zilch from this group.

I'm hoping Berube is a breath of fresh air and is able to knock Marner down a peg or two to get him more focused on hockey and less on the discourse outside of the rink.
 

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