Maybe Tavares is the problem

[joepeps]

Want to do the breakdown of this?



Goals only matter now?



I'm not the one claiming these stupid stats, I'm mocking them.

2022 games 3-7 he has 2 assists.. he had 3 points in game 1 blowout loss and 3 points in game 2 blowout win.
2023 games 1 and 2 were blowouts both ways again 3 points each game then 5 points in the next 4 games.. not bad then Florida came and shit got hard and he had 2 points in 5 games
2024 3 points in 7 games against Boston

sorry, this isn't an 11 mil player or a 12-13 that he wants now.

 

[hotpaws]

JT wasn't signed to his contract with the expectation that he would be one of the best players in the league at age 33. I dont think that was the expectation in year one of the contract - he had 37 goals and 84 points when we signed him, a career high.

Say what you want about Dubie, but JT has pretty much lived up to exactly what should have been expected. This was we paid for, albeit stupidly.

JT was signed to the highest cap hit in the NHL at the time to help win us a cup or at least help us go deep in the playoffs , the signing was a failure .

and we've been making excuses for his play since his 2nd year (new father) so lets stop pretending he's been a perennial Hart contender and has been worth his 11m cap hit before this past season

 

[BertCorbeau]

JT was signed to the highest cap hit in the NHL at the time to help win us a cup or at least help us go deep in the playoffs , the signing was a failure .

and we've been making excuses for his play since his 2nd year (new father) so lets stop pretending he's been a perennial Hart contender and has been worth his 11m cap hit before this past season

I mean production wise, over his age and contract, have been pretty decent for the contract. But at that price tag, you're right. He came in and took the 'C' to lead this team to a cup. And he's failed miserably at influencing this team as a dangerous cup contender, even when they've been favoured to be. At that cap hit, you want him to be that type of leader. But he hasn't done enough to come close.

 

[LeafEgo]

JT was signed to the highest cap hit in the NHL at the time to help win us a cup or at least help us go deep in the playoffs , the signing was a failure .

and we've been making excuses for his play since his 2nd year (new father) so lets stop pretending he's been a perennial Hart contender and has been worth his 11m cap hit before this past season

Yep, front office made an ill advised signing and then mismanaged the team to make it even worse thereafter. JT came in, did his job, and got screwed just like we all did.

The expectations he had when Dubie handed him that contract, and whatever speech was included, are the ones that were missed - he probably assumed they knew what they were doing.

 

[thewave]

Team stats for Marners down year, Nylander's breakout year.

View attachment 883951

How was it his down year? He just played fewer games. Not only that he is already slowing down and it's affecting him. On top of that AM had 69 goals and was propping him up.

Nylander basically was his line. JT was terrible and will not bounce back.

Not our problem that Marner doesn't work out enough in the summer. He is the one starting seasons out of shape and pretty consistently getting off to slow starts. The league knows to defeat him, you just charge at him a few times and cover him closely.

JT and Marner are not winning you a series or a cup. They could go on to a cup team but can not be relied upon to get it done.

 

[notDatsyuk]

View attachment 884206

I have no clue how Nylander gets no blame anymore.

You may be the only person who has no clue.

You had to go all the way back 7 years and ignore the facts that Marner mainly plays with Matthews, possibly the best goal scorer in the league, on the top line, while Nylander has been mainly stuck with JT on the second line.

Particularly if you look at more recent stats, it's pretty clear to anyone without a huge bias why Nylander "gets no blame anymore". (Which is incorrect - he gets some blame, just not as much as some others, largely because his game keeps improving.)

 

[notDatsyuk]

How sad that we are even able to argue about which one of our 11 million dollar players suck the most because by and large none of them really do anything to get us over the hump.
It’s like arguing which end of the titanic went under the water first……..it really doesn’t matter because the result is always the same.
What we should all be concerned about is that it looks like the new management is simply going to run it back again

What's even sadder is that some posters are arguing that a player making under $7M while producing as high a ppg as our $11.7M player and higher than either of our $11M players (over the last four playoff seasons) is the problem.

 

[LeafEgo]

View attachment 884206

I have no clue how Nylander gets no blame anymore.

Nylander is a hockey rockstar, coming off of two clutch elimination games. Trajectory is great, good reason to be optimistic about what lies ahead for him. Will be very interesting to watch his career play out.

 

[mikeyz]

It matters sometimes lol

Yes. Only when you lose. Which is how it always will be with fanbases.

"Winning cures and masks alot of problems" is the perfect sports quote.

 

[Racer88]

What's even sadder is that some posters are arguing that a player making under $7M while producing as high a ppg as our $11.7M player and higher than either of our $11M players (over the last four playoff seasons) is the problem.

That truly is crazy

 

[Trapper]

I have no clue how Nylander gets no blame anymore.

He does. Make us a good offer and he can go as well. Trouble is, based on what we heard last year, no one will. And the same for Marner. These guys are worth more to Leaf fans than a great return from another team.

I wouldn’t have paid Nylander 11.5 and I sure wouldn’t be paying Marner 12+. I would love to see what other team will give him that.

 

[Da Mash]

Its what we expected when the contract was signed. There was a higher offer and he choose TO.

Damn high cap hit but who would of predicted covid .......life happens...

Now he is close to the end of this contract, odds are he may be resigned and take a home discount in the twighlight of his career. Be a solid 3rd center or winger? Will a team take his contract on to meet the cap floor? Hard ask really as I think he also has a NMC in his contract.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Its what we expected when the contract was signed. There was a higher offer and he choose TO.

Damn high cap hit but who would of predicted covid .......life happens...

Now he is close to the end of this contract, odds are he may be resigned and take a home discount in the twighlight of his career. Be a solid 3rd center or winger? Will a team take his contract on to meet the cap floor? Hard ask really as I think he also has a NMC in his contract.

The team never pivoted though, that's on Dubas.

 

[A1LeafNation]

The problem with Marner is the ppl surrounding him give a phone call to whomever they disagree with, his contract demands, and his lack of playoff production.

The problem with JT, is his lack of intensity, toughness, and playoff production

It's both of them that take up 22m and leave the Leafs no money for support scoring, toughness, defence, and goaltending.

Another factor is we have only seen this team under Keefe (Babcock had them when the core was a little too young still). Keefe had them playing slow, which doesn't work in the playoffs.

All 3 of these have had a negative impact on this team in the playoffs.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Damn high cap hit but who would of predicted covid .......life happens...

loser GMs sign UFAs before deciding on a core.

 

[ToneDog]

Nylander is a hockey rockstar, coming off of two clutch elimination games. Trajectory is great, good reason to be optimistic about what lies ahead for him. Will be very interesting to watch his career play out.

@ 11.5m he needs to be the player he was before he signed his extension. If he reverts back to the old Willie, he won't be able to take the Red Rocket to work.

 

[ToneDog]

Tavares was not the problem. The many mistakes they made after signing him are. I believe Stellick has an article in the Star comparing the Panthers and Leafs who were 14 points up on them, 4 years ago.

Since then Zito has added Montour, Forsling, Tkachuk, Bennett, Reinhart, Verhaeghe, Rodriquez, OEL etc. The Leafs have been a carousel trying to add around 4 losers and here we are, again. Yup let's pay Marner $100m and keep this party going.

 

[TheScandal89]

The problem wasn't necessarily the signing, it was asset management. We got him for free, but then essentially lost Kadri for free as Barrie sucked and Kerfoot was not much better then a average UFA signing. Basically becomes a wash, a very expensive wash.

Had we turned Kadri into a solid prospect or a young D we could use, it wouldn't look as bad imo. I realize Kadri was supposed to be traded for Brodie, who we got for free anyway, I'm talking someone younger.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Tavares isn't the whole problem.

But he's definitely part of the problem. And all the problems with the roster started with his signing. Not that we should blame Tavares for choosing to make a gajillion dollars living out his childhood dream.

We can blame the Toronto Maple Leafs for acting like the Make A Wish Foundation and enabling it though.

A top heavy roster with a boat anchor for Captain is just one of the problems. The biggest is a soft assed fan base constantly licking the players feet. If I show you my sweaty man boobs will you autograph them for me too John?

The only ones sticking up for Tavares anymore are the ones digging in their heels to be obstinate.

It'd be nice if the fans could unite in protest agaisnt ML$E to encourage making changes to the roster instead. Preferably starting with trading Captain Boat Anchor. Maybe if the fans were more vocal in their dissent management would be more proactive in their resolution.

Just because you're part of the problem doesn't mean you can't be part of the answer.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Tavares was not the problem. The many mistakes they made after signing him are. I believe Stellick has an article in the Star comparing the Panthers and Leafs who were 14 points up on them, 4 years ago.

Since then Zito has added Montour, Forsling, Tkachuk, Bennett, Reinhart, Verhaeghe, Rodriquez, OEL etc. The Leafs have been a carousel trying to add around 4 losers and here we are, again. Yup let's pay Marner $100m and keep this party going.

Valid points.

We actually nearly signed Verhaeghe too for like 1 year 1M but we were too tight on cap so we had to sign Vesey instead at 1 year 800k

 

[Sypher04]

I know the overwhelmingly most popular thing to do these days is to relentlessly criticize all our best players, and I get that some of it is certainly deserved and that the rest is born of a tremendous amount of frustration that we all share as fans of this hockey team, but at the end of the day I still come back to one question:

These players need to be better, absolutely no doubt about it, but as an organization is it more likely that a) you got supremely unlucky and drafted 3 elite level talents who won’t or cannot compete in the postseason or b) that when all of your best forwards consistently struggle to produce offense in the playoffs, maybe that is indicative of fundamental issues in systems and the job you’ve done to support them as well.

I believe we would be capable of winning with any or even all of 34, 88, 16 and 91 leading this team. They need to be better, but management has failed this group as much as the players have on the ice. Whether that’s inconsistent vision, lack of foresight on some young players, goaltending as a whole, defense as a whole, coaching, and not course correcting when the cap was frozen due to Covid.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I know the overwhelmingly most popular thing to do these days is to relentlessly criticize all our best players, and I get that some of it is certainly deserved and that the rest is born of a tremendous amount of frustration that we all share as fans of this hockey team, but at the end of the day I still come back to one question:

These players need to be better, absolutely no doubt about it, but as an organization is it more likely that a) you got supremely unlucky and drafted 3 elite level talents who won’t or cannot compete in the postseason or b) that when all of your best forwards consistently struggle to produce offense in the playoffs, maybe that is indicative of fundamental issues in systems and the job you’ve done to support them as well.

I believe we would be capable of winning with any or even all of 34, 88, 16 and 91 leading this team. They need to be better, but management has failed this group as much as the players have on the ice. Whether that’s inconsistent vision, lack of foresight on some young players, goaltending as a whole, defense as a whole, coaching, and not course correcting when the cap was frozen due to Covid.

It's hard to fill out the roster, find defense or an elite goalie when we're so top heavy in our salary cap structure, having that amount of money in forwards and averaging 2 goals per game in the playoffs just isn't acceptable.

Matthews isn't anywhere near McDavid as we've seen in these playoffs

 

[Sypher04]

It's hard to fill out the roster, find defense or an elite goalie when we're so top heavy in our salary cap structure, having that amount of money in forwards and averaging 2 goals per game in the playoffs just isn't acceptable.

Matthews isn't anywhere near McDavid as we've seen in these playoffs

Well, I certainly wasn’t arguing he was.
I also don’t disagree with any of this.
But the fact we average 2 goals per game while being one of the best teams offensively year in and year out in the regular season also surely indicates systemic issues.

 

[colchar]

Marner hate is all the rage right now but maybe it's JT that should be shouldering lots to blame

Look at his Islander days he missed the playoffs in 6 out of 9 years.

Yeah, because hockey is like basketball and one player can do it themselves.

I think his leadership with no emotion and robot-like affect the team. I think you need a better captain who will get piss guys off and call them out when they suck.

You have absolutely no idea what he is like in the room or as a captain. How he appears in the media is meaningless.

Sure Marner has his faults in the playoffs with him being scared but maybe he needs a leader to call his bullshit out and tell him to man up. JT is not that leader

How the hell would you know?

Marner would so do himself a favor if he signed a team-friendly deal to take the pressure off him

Yeah, like that would ever happen.

 

[ryno23]

Yeah, because hockey is like basketball and one player can do it themselves.




You have absolutely no idea what he is like in the room or as a captain. How he appears in the media is meaningless.




How the hell would you know?





Yeah, like that would ever happen.

your response would indicate you miss any former player or those of us who played at a decent level say a leader makes a huge difference. Do you think Messier would allow this shit to happen. He would be in guys' faces and they would respond.

Tavares is not that guy. You don't need to be in the room to know he is not the type to be a Messier like leader. You hear enough from former teammates and people who or were in the room from the management side to know