Prospect Info: Matthew Tkachuk or PL Dubois (Round 3)

[clunk]

Benning has made it clear that Ben Hutton is going to be a part of "the core", has he not?

I don't even know at this point. You can trust nothing about what Benning says. We've been apparently rebuilding but trading away draft picks and getting older so...

 

[Scholarships]

Would you guys sacrifice Ben Hutton to move up two spots and draft J. Puljujarvi ?

Nope. I don't see the gap between Puljujarvi and Tkachuk/Dubois being worth Hutton

 

[racerjoe]

I am (and have this entire time) been responding to your initial post on the subject about two pages back. Here's a recap with the crucial pieces bolded:




My post addresses a) There are reasons why there are so few 6'6 players in the NHL and these reasons are largely population driven and not because "it is so much harder to be so" as well as b) Both players will have trouble transitioning to the next level but not necessarily for opposite reasons. Brown's challenges will not be due to his excessive size but will be fairly "typical" challenges i.e. consistency and work ethic. Things like having good hand eye, a quick stick, etc will not be reasons why he does not make it to the NHL since he already has excellent hand eye, a quick stick, etc. If you watch his U18's you will see he is far from a lumbering, plodding beast out on the ice but is actually quite nimble and quick (period, not just for his size) and possesses insane vision and passing ability. His size gives him extra reach and puck protection ability but otherwise he actually plays almost like a "small" player. There is no argument that he faces any extra adversity due to his massive height.

Thanks, I actually did need the recap, I was confused especially after it turns out Art was not arguing what I thought he was.

Let's see if I can break this down correctly here.

I think he is just a head of the curve, I think it flattens out for a player like brown, where his stick can only move so fast sort of speak. If his hand speed is the exact same speed as Keller, his stick still moves much slower. I don't except the percentage argument, but I will concede it as I don't feel it has a bearing here. Less because they are rare as a human shouldn't change the fact there are less to none that play that style of game. It's probably for a reason. Sure we could hope he turns into a unicorn, but if I hear hooves I still think horse.

It's that above, the handspeed, and obvious extra time it takes him to move in general that will hinder him as he moves up levels. Those are traits due to his size. He doesn't have necessarily improve them, but learn to deal with them when moving up levels. I have watched him a bit at the U18's, it was my only real viewing for lots of guys include two I like more Jost and Keller. He still needs work moving laterally, and while he doesn't plod, his still needs to get quicker. Things brought on from his size.

Like I said I think he will have issues to overcome, not that Keller won't either. Both have issues due to their size.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Benning has made it clear that Ben Hutton is going to be a part of "the core", has he not?

Whether he has or hasn't he should be. The "core" moving forward should be based around Hutton, Tanev, Horvat, Virtanen and Markstrom. Hopefully Baertschi, Boesser, Demko and others can add their names to that list, but those 5 are the core going forward.

 

[The Drop]

...thereby guaranteeing we don't get him.

A couple of amateur scouts isn't really the consensus.

Also laughing at how many Hab fans have PLD sliding to 9 if we draft him, we're going to see tons of these damn proposals over the years

 

[The Drop]

Whether he has or hasn't he should be. The "core" moving forward should be based around Hutton, Tanev, Horvat, Virtanen and Markstrom. Hopefully Baertschi, Boesser, Demko and others can add their names to that list, but those 5 are the core going forward.

I'm not sure Markstrom is part of the core.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I'm not sure Markstrom is part of the core.

True. He is debatable. But I think he needs to stick around long enough to at least help Demko transition into the NHL, which could be 3-4 years from now.

 

[Josepho]

I'm not sure Markstrom is part of the core.

Markstrom is basically a stopgap until Demko.

 

[Scholarships]

A couple of amateur scouts isn't really the consensus.

Also laughing at how many Hab fans have PLD sliding to 9 if we draft him, we're going to see tons of these damn proposals over the years

More prosposals probably means that Dubois develops nicely. I wouldn't mind dumb proposals if it means that Dubois is a solid player

 

[racerjoe]

Whether he has or hasn't he should be. The "core" moving forward should be based around Hutton, Tanev, Horvat, Virtanen and Markstrom. Hopefully Baertschi, Boesser, Demko and others can add their names to that list, but those 5 are the core going forward.

I have really changed my mind over how teams are built over the last few years. I compare everything to a team like Chicago. Their core is really only three players they wouldn't trade. Kane, Toews and Keith. Sure some may be harder to move like Seabrook or Hossa, but everything else is movable for the right price.

While I agree with what you said, I don't think it should be. None of those players will be absolutely elite, like the Hawks 3. Thats what you need. Pits has Malkin, Crosby and Letang, LA Doughty and Kopitar, but there just seems to be always a few guys that revolve around the team.

None of this is to say you are wrong, just maybe we should rethink how we do this.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I have really changed my mind over how teams are built over the last few years. I compare everything to a team like Chicago. Their core is really only three players they wouldn't trade. Kane, Toews and Keith. Sure some may be harder to move like Seabrook or Hossa, but everything else is movable for the right price.

While I agree with what you said, I don't think it should be. None of those players will be absolutely elite, like the Hawks 3. Thats what you need. Pits has Malkin, Crosby and Letang, LA Doughty and Kopitar, but there just seems to be always a few guys that revolve around the team.

None of this is to say you are wrong, just maybe we should rethink how we do this.

I agree, we shouldn't trade out superelite players. Easy for us though, we don't have any.

 

[ginner classic]

Markstrom is basically a stopgap until Demko.

Maybe. Pretty tough to project goalies until you can see what they do in the NHL.

 

[JA]

I expect Vancouver to select P.L. Dubois fifth overall and will be very pleased with the selection. Matthew Tkachuk would also be fine if Dubois is taken ahead of our draft position. I will rejoice, however, if Vancouver moves up to 3rd overall and selects Jesse Puljujärvi.

It's almost a no-lose situation. The only disastrous possibility is the scenario in which we trade down.

 

[clunk]

I expect Vancouver to select P.L. Dubois fifth overall and will be very pleased with the selection. Matthew Tkachuk would also be fine if Dubois is taken ahead of our draft position. I will rejoice, however, if Vancouver moves up to 3rd overall and selects Jesse Puljujärvi.

It's almost a no-lose situation. The only disastrous possibility is the scenario in which we trade down.

You give Jim too much credit. Brown is being picked at 5, leaving Tkachuk to Calgary.

 

[racerjoe]

I agree, we shouldn't trade out superelite players. Easy for us though, we don't have any.

I was more saying like you noted here, we don't have any players to consider core, to build around.

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

Nope. I don't see the gap between Puljujarvi and Tkachuk/Dubois being worth Hutton

Laine, yes.

Puljujarvi, no.

 

[arttk]

Markstrom is basically a stopgap until Demko.

Quick was a stop gap for Bernier too...

 

[Josepho]

Quick was a stop gap for Bernier too...

Fair enough, I'm not saying that Demko is a lock to be better than Markstrom, or a lock to be a starting goalie in general.

 

[beachcomber]

You give Jim too much credit. Brown is being picked at 5, leaving Tkachuk to Calgary.

So what has he done draft wise to make you come up with a statement like this?

 

[Fat Tony]

So what has he done draft wise to make you come up with a statement like this?

Virtanen over Ehlers.

 

[The Drop]

Virtanen over Ehlers.

And Nylander.

 

[CanaFan]

Thing is there was no "slam dunk" player for us at 6 in 2014. Rankings variously had Virtanen, Ehlers, Nylander, and Ritchie rated in that spot. Hell Carolina even reached for Fleury (a guy not often rated in that spot) over Nylander and Ehlers. Mackenzie's final poll of scouts put Ritchie at 6 and Virtanen at 7 IIRC and that was a combined ranking of 10 or so team's scouts.

Very different from this year though Brown's "riser" status may be changing that.

 

[beachcomber]

Virtanen over Ehlers.

Virtanen was right in the mix in the draft lists with Nylander and Ehlers. He wasn't a "reach" at six and he could be exactly what the Nucks need in the future to compete in the Pacific. I think that calling him a bad pick at this point is short sighted at best.

 

[lawrence]

why are [we] still talking about the 2014 draft? It went, and its in the past. Lets just support our players and move on with the 2016 draft. I personally think he made the right choice, by selecting Virtanen over those Euro Wimps, not to mention JIm Benning already made that up by acquiring Sven Beartchi, who will be better then those 2 guys anyways.

[mod] We need some muscle type of players.

The projection was that Nylander, Ehlers, Virtanen, and Ritchie (people forgot him) they were all in the mix, all of them, destined and determined based at the time, that they will all probably be not top line, but second line players, Jim Benning opted to go for the second line player chances are the weaker offensively out of the 3, but probably ten times more physical, and bigger and faster of the 3 in Jake Virtanen, so its the right pick.

I'm just shaking my head right now, why we are still thinking about that, wtf has Nylander and Ehlers done for THEIR teams? absolutely nothing if you ask me. bunch of weaklings that WILL be bounced around come playoff time and vanish just like Filip Forsberg when the going gets tough.

 

[GreetingsFromCanada]

why are [we] still talking about the 2014 draft? It went, and its in the past. Lets just support our players and move on with the 2016 draft. I personally think he made the right choice, by selecting Virtanen over those Euro Wimps, not to mention JIm Benning already made that up by acquiring Sven Beartchi, who will be better then those 2 guys anyways.

[mod] We need some muscle type of players.

The projection was that Nylander, Ehlers, Virtanen, and Ritchie (people forgot him) they were all in the mix, all of them, destined and determined based at the time, that they will all probably be not top line, but second line players, Jim Benning opted to go for the second line player chances are the weaker offensively out of the 3, but probably ten times more physical, and bigger and faster of the 3 in Jake Virtanen, so its the right pick.

I'm just shaking my head right now, why we are still thinking about that, wtf has Nylander and Ehlers done for THEIR teams? absolutely nothing if you ask me. bunch of weaklings that WILL be bounced around come playoff time and vanish just like Filip Forsberg when the going gets tough.

Oh please, Virtanen is a joke of a pick in hindsight. Nylander and Ehlers are top line players within 2 years, we can't even tell if Virtanen is going to be a 2nd liner. Nylander was the Leafs when he was called up and Ehlers put up 22 points in his last 30 games.

If you want to talk about playoffs, wtf has Jake Virtanen ever done to show he can up his game? Putting up 1 rebound assist in 10 AHL playoff games or his mediocre total 17 points in 20 WHL playoff games in his draft and draft+1 seasons, is that showing up?

What are your thoughts about Nylander's 14 points in 19 AHL playoff games? How about Ehler's 59 points in 30 QMJHL games? Do we really need another Raffi Torres over a Sedin?

P.S Ehlers is fast than Virtanen.

Edit: Or was it Virtanen's epic fail at the WJC that really impressed you?