Prospect Info: Matthew Tkachuk or PL Dubois (Round 3)

[iFan]

Oh please, Virtanen is a joke of a pick in hindsight. Nylander and Ehlers are top line players within 2 years, we can't even tell if Virtanen is going to be a 2nd liner. Nylander was the Leafs when he was called up and Ehlers put up 22 points in his last 30 games.

If you want to talk about playoffs, wtf has Jake Virtanen ever done to show he can up his game? Putting up 1 rebound assist in 10 AHL playoff games or his mediocre total 17 points in 20 WHL playoff games in his draft and draft+1 seasons, is that showing up?

What are your thoughts about Nylander's 14 points in 19 AHL playoff games? How about Ehler's 59 points in 30 QMJHL games? Do we really need another Raffi Torres over a Sedin?

P.S Ehlers is fast than Virtanen.

Virtanen has one year under him, it's way to early to be talking like this... Oh wait weren't you one of the many saying Horvat was a bust? Too many on here write young players off way too quick, think they should step in and be impact players.

 

[GreetingsFromCanada]

Virtanen has one year under him, it's way to early to be talking like this... Oh wait weren't you one of the many saying Horvat was a bust? Too many on here write young players off way too quick, think they should step in and be impact players.

I said Domi should've been our pick. But you know, Domi has diabetes so we didn't pick him.

On the topic of Virtanen, look at what I'm replying too. It's pretty definitive that Ehlers and Nylander are the better players and Virtanen is a massive question mark of a prospect.

 

[The Drop]

why are [we] still talking about the 2014 draft? It went, and its in the past. Lets just support our players and move on with the 2016 draft. I personally think he made the right choice, by selecting Virtanen over those Euro Wimps, not to mention JIm Benning already made that up by acquiring Sven Beartchi, who will be better then those 2 guys anyways.

[mod] We need some muscle type of players.

The projection was that Nylander, Ehlers, Virtanen, and Ritchie (people forgot him) they were all in the mix, all of them, destined and determined based at the time, that they will all probably be not top line, but second line players, Jim Benning opted to go for the second line player chances are the weaker offensively out of the 3, but probably ten times more physical, and bigger and faster of the 3 in Jake Virtanen, so its the right pick.

I'm just shaking my head right now, why we are still thinking about that, wtf has Nylander and Ehlers done for THEIR teams? absolutely nothing if you ask me. bunch of weaklings that WILL be bounced around come playoff time and vanish just like Filip Forsberg when the going gets tough.

Nylander had 13 points in 22 games.

Ehlers had 38 points in 72

Baerstchi had 28 points in 69.


Despite being 3 years older he was less productive than both.

I'm just shaking my head at how anyone can think Baertschi is better than those 2

 

[GreetingsFromCanada]

Nylander had 13 points in 22 games.

Ehlers had 38 points in 72

Baerstchi had 28 points in 69.


Despite being 3 years older he was less productive than both.

I'm just shaking my head at how anyone can think Baertschi is better than those 2

We made the wrong choice in 2014 and people are quickly running out of excuses to suggest otherwise. Why would you need more "Euro wimps" when we already have Baertschi is new one though.

 

[Captain Bowie]

We made the wrong choice in 2014 and people are quickly running out of excuses to suggest otherwise. Why would you need more "Euro wimps" when we already have Baertschi is new one though.

Even if we did, does that mean Virtanen can't be a good player? Why don't we quite moaning about 2014 and just hope Jake continues his current path towards becoming a quality player, regardless of how good the others are?

 

[GreetingsFromCanada]

Even if we did, does that mean Virtanen can't be a good player? Why don't we quite moaning about 2014 and just hope Jake continues his current path towards becoming a quality player, regardless of how good the others are?

It's a missed opportunity and a poor choice among many others during this regime. The worst thing is Virtanen hasn't really shown me any promise. He disappointed me when we drafted him, he disappointed me during his WHL career, he disappointed me in his 12 AHL games, he disappointed everyone at the WJC and he disappointed during his rookie season. I'm not sure what you consider quality, but that doesn't sound like a quality 6th overall pick to me.

 

[Tim McCracken]

It's a missed opportunity and a poor choice among many others during this regime. The worst thing is Virtanen hasn't really shown me any promise. He disappointed me when we drafted him, he disappointed me during his WHL career, he disappointed me in his 12 AHL, he disappointed everyone at the WJC and he disappointed during his rookie season. I'm not sure what you consider quality, but that doesn't sound like a quality 6th overall pick to me.

I think Benning has drafted quite well. Which ones in addition to Virtanen didn't you like? Must be most to be "many" over two drafts.

 

[GreetingsFromCanada]

I think Benning has drafted quite well. Which ones in addition to Virtanen didn't you like? Must be most to be "many" over two drafts.

I meant managerial decisions in general, like 95% of his trades and signings. Then there's the denial direction this team is currently willing to occupy for another half decade.

 

[lawrence]

It's a missed opportunity and a poor choice among many others during this regime. The worst thing is Virtanen hasn't really shown me any promise. He disappointed me when we drafted him, he disappointed me during his WHL career, he disappointed me in his 12 AHL, he disappointed everyone at the WJC and he disappointed during his rookie season. I'm not sure what you consider quality, but that doesn't sound like a quality 6th overall pick to me.

We don't want wimps in our top 6, and we have to be patient about building our team correctly. JIm Benning doesn't want a weaker player like Nylander or Ehlers taking up a top 6 roster, so he opted to not draft those guys, unless they are destined to be top line players. In his vision, well if they are only going to be second line players, you guys are easily aquiriable via signing anyways, plus I think he values a top 6 player with grit and physical play also, to bring added value if they don't show up. These guys are anything but physical, just look at Filip Forsberg or Mike Ribeior

I believe Bennings idea top 6 and even full line up, are guys that are not weak.

At this point is really pointless for us to go back and forth about the Jake Virtanen draft, cause its in the pass, its done, there is nothing we can do about it, love it or hate it, and lets move on and see who we should pick in 2016. Dooby or Tkachuk, I am happy with both, personally I think Tkachuk is a little more safe to become a top line winger, Dooby is harder read, but I think he will turn out into an elite player also, Tkachuk has good strength with the puck, knows where to go without the puck, not afraid nor does he get intimated, in your face type of guy. He's kinda like a Daniel Sedin in terms of puck strength on the puck. Skating can be worked on, plus we are lacking a left winger as a prospect in our system, so It be great to get him.

Dooby also is a guy that is not afraid to stand up against anyone, plays a physical game, also, is a turn over machine, has a nice wrist shot, great offensively also, oh man, i'm just happy we are on a good side of a drop off this year.

 

[GreetingsFromCanada]

We don't want wimps in our top 6

Sedins, Karlsson, Crosby, Panarin, Kuznetsov, Kane, Gaudreau, Kucherov, Giroux, Kessel, Drouin, Johnson, Fabbri, etc.

Every time you say that you sound like Mike Gillis after we got **** kicked by the Bruins. Saying we don't want "wimps" is a ****ing lame excuse when they're the same players that win you games and dominate the league.

 

[Captain Bowie]

It's a missed opportunity and a poor choice among many others during this regime. The worst thing is Virtanen hasn't really shown me any promise. He disappointed me when we drafted him, he disappointed me during his WHL career, he disappointed me in his 12 AHL games, he disappointed everyone at the WJC and he disappointed during his rookie season. I'm not sure what you consider quality, but that doesn't sound like a quality 6th overall pick to me.

Good for you. Sounds like you have a lot of disappointment in your life. You obviously were going to hate him no matter what from the start, if scoring 45 goals in the dub at 17 is disappointing to you.

 

[Verviticus]

that doesnt seem obvious. are you familiar with the word 'obvious'

 

[GreetingsFromCanada]

Good for you. Sounds like you have a lot of disappointment in your life. You obviously were going to hate him no matter what from the start, if scoring 45 goals in the dub at 17 is disappointing to you.

Passing on someone who scored 49 goals and 103 points in 63 games for 45 goals and 71 points in 71 games is disappointing.

Edit: You know what, no I didn't it. If Virtanen showed an ounce of progress like most prospects too I wouldn't be disappointed. But he turned around and had a **** draft+1 year. Horvat, an actual reach, made progress and at least showed there was a lot more to him. Nino Niederrieter, who I see 1 dude commonly throw around as to what Virtanen can be, improved.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Aye, passing on someone who scored 49 goals and 103 points in 63 games for 45 goals and 71 points in 71 games is disappointing.

But see, this is what I'm talking about. You are confusing thinking someone might be better with thinking Virtanen sucks. They are not mutually exclusive. Both players can turn out great and both players can bust. I don't really care what the others do at this point, as long as Virtanen turns out well.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Thing is there was no "slam dunk" player for us at 6 in 2014. Rankings variously had Virtanen, Ehlers, Nylander, and Ritchie rated in that spot. Hell Carolina even reached for Fleury (a guy not often rated in that spot) over Nylander and Ehlers. Mackenzie's final poll of scouts put Ritchie at 6 and Virtanen at 7 IIRC and that was a combined ranking of 10 or so team's scouts.

Very different from this year though Brown's "riser" status may be changing that.

Yes, I remember this vividly because it was the first time McKenzie's rankings exactly mirrored my own. That never happens for me! Anyway, yes, there wasn't an automatic option for #6. We were all hoping MDC would fall 1 spot, but that didn't happen. The next four were: Virtanen, Ehlers, Nylander and Ritchie. Those were the players in serious contention at Pick #6.

 

[Gaunce4gm]

Virtanen could end the career of Ehlers or Nylander with one hit... I don't see them being able to do that. Virtanen also had major surgery leading up to his first NHL season. These players are too young to be compared based on NHL production. Virtanen has significantly better possession numbers, zone entry stats, hits, and very comparable p/60. If virtanen played 20 minutes a night with players like Scheifele, Wheeler, Ladd, Little, Byfuglien, etc he would have put up better numbers. If Ehlers had played 11 minutes a night with Dorsett, Prust, and Cracknell he would've put up very little offense and since he's not physical like virtanen he'd be back in the Q and everyone would be saying "look how good virtanen is playing with Wheeler and Little, he's already a top Line player, I hate wimpy euro skaters ugh Benning our drafting sucks"

Wait till he's 23 and playing with Dubois or Tkachuk and he's laying massive hits and causing problems with his speed

 

[GreetingsFromCanada]

But see, this is what I'm talking about. You are confusing thinking someone might be better with thinking Virtanen sucks. They are not mutually exclusive. Both players can turn out great and both players can bust. I don't really care what the others do at this point, as long as Virtanen turns out well.

If Virtanen showed an ounce of progress like most prospects do I wouldn't be disappointed. But he turned around and had a **** draft+1 year. Horvat, an actual reach, made progress and at least showed there was a lot more to him. Nino Niederrieter, who I see 1 dude commonly throw around as to what Virtanen can be, improved. By the time the NHL season ended Virtanen was the same wondering player he started as in October.

If you want me to believe in Virtanen regardless of Ehlers and Nylander's obvious superiority he has to actually get better. Something he hasn't managed to do in the 2 years since being drafted.

 

[Captain Bowie]

If Virtanen showed an ounce of progress like most prospects do I wouldn't be disappointed..

Yikes. I see there is no rational discussion here. Unless you think a 17 year old Virtanen would have been able to stick in the NHL and not look terribly out of place, yeah he has progressed some.

G'night.

 

[GreetingsFromCanada]

Virtanen could end the career of Ehlers or Nylander with one hit... I don't see them being able to do that. Virtanen also had major surgery leading up to his first NHL season. These players are too young to be compared based on NHL production. Virtanen has significantly better possession numbers , zone entry stats, hits, and very comparable p/60 . If virtanen played 20 minutes a night with players like Scheifele, Wheeler, Ladd, Little, Byfuglien, etc he would have put up better numbers. If Ehlers had played 11 minutes a night with Dorsett, Prust, and Cracknell he would've put up very little offense and since he's not physical like virtanen he'd be back in the Q and everyone would be saying "look how good virtanen is playing with Wheeler and Little, he's already a top Line player, I hate wimpy euro skaters ugh Benning our drafting sucks"

Wait till he's 23 and playing with Dubois or Tkachuk and he's laying massive hits and causing problems with his speed

None of the bolded is true. Ehlers and Nylander had superior possesion numbers, it's not arguable.

The difference between them and Virtanen in PP/60 is the difference between Vey and the Sedins. That's not even a joke, there's about a 1.00 PP/60 difference between the Sedins and Vey. Ehlers is 0.80PP/60 above Virtanen and Nylander is 0.95PP/60. There's a reason I use PP/60 and not PP/Game, because time played overall doesn't matter, so the bias is gone.

Virtanen ended up playing mostly on the 3rd line, but he had tryouts on the 2nd line and the 1st line. He never had any chemistry with them, it just didn't work. Say what you will but Ehlers found a fit on their top line and it worked. Nylander played with Zach Hyman, so there isn't even a complaint you can make about his linemates.

Due to their higher line status they also played against the other teams top pairing D. Just keep that in mind.

Ehlers had a concussion and an eye injury this season that left his eye filled with blood and Nylander had a concussion. Injuries are a poor excuse when Virtanen had so much time to heal compared to others.

Edit: The part about zone entries is untrue too. Virtanen had a mediocre 45% controlled entries (McCann had 57% by season's end, 62% earlier). Ehlers was leading the whole damn league by December

http://canucksarmy.com/2016/2/3/analyzing-the-vancouver-canucks-zone-entry-data-through-november
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/why-winnipegs-nikolaj-ehlers-is-a-star-in-the-making/

 

[GreetingsFromCanada]

Yikes. I see there is no rational discussion here. Unless you think a 17 year old Virtanen would have been able to stick in the NHL and not look terribly out of place, yeah he has progressed some.

G'night.

Draft season: 71 points in 71 games
Draft+1 season: 52 points in 50 games, 1 point in 12 AHL playoff games, 4 points in 7 WJC games
Draft+2 season: 13 points in 55 NHL games, 0 in 2 AHL games, 1 point in 5 WJC games

Yup

 

[GreetingsFromCanada]

So how about that Dubois?

 

[Evolu7ion]

The Virtanen selection was a mistake, there's no denying that. The decision to keep Virtanen up past 9 games was also a mistake IMO, that may have damaged his development.

Really hope Benning learns from this kind of **** and doesn't rush Tkachuk/Dubois just for the sake of appeasing the fans. These are critical assets and you have to be patient with them...

 

[Bleach Clean]

The Virtanen selection was a mistake, there's no denying that. The decision to keep Virtanen up past 9 games was also a mistake IMO, that may have damaged his development.

Really hope Benning learns from this kind of **** and doesn't rush Tkachuk/Dubois just for the sake of appeasing the fans. These are critical assets and you have to be patient with them...

If he gets Tkachuk/Dubois...

For Tkachuk, I think he can be graduated early. Of course it would depend upon his camp performance, but he does have the frame and production at the lower leagues to suggest that he could advance now. Dubois, I hope they keep down another year.

 

[Bobby Digital]

Virtanen could end the career of Ehlers or Nylander with one hit... I don't see them being able to do that. Virtanen also had major surgery leading up to his first NHL season. These players are too young to be compared based on NHL production. Virtanen has significantly better possession numbers, zone entry stats, hits, and very comparable p/60. If virtanen played 20 minutes a night with players like Scheifele, Wheeler, Ladd, Little, Byfuglien, etc he would have put up better numbers. If Ehlers had played 11 minutes a night with Dorsett, Prust, and Cracknell he would've put up very little offense and since he's not physical like virtanen he'd be back in the Q and everyone would be saying "look how good virtanen is playing with Wheeler and Little, he's already a top Line player, I hate wimpy euro skaters ugh Benning our drafting sucks"

Wait till he's 23 and playing with Dubois or Tkachuk and he's laying massive hits and causing problems with his speed

Smh. Are you kidding me? The excuses/reasoning some people come up with are just embarrassing.

Oh also half your post is a lie. But it's already been disproven. Lastly that last sentence sounds like it's coming from Benning himself. You related?

 

[ChilliBilly]

CAn't a mod remove all the whining about the Virtanen pick to another thread.

Tiresome. And he is a different package then the smaller skill guys. Live with it.