Martin Brodeur vs Dominik Hasek, who would you draft

[ManofSteel55]

You lost all credibility when you said Brodeur is only top 10

You lost all credibility when you suggest top 10 isn't good enough when Hasek, Roy, Dryden, Plante, Sawchuk, all hold very legitimate arguments to be ranked above Brodeur. I expect you are just trying to pick a fight here. "Top ten" can refer to anyone ranked 1 - 10. If you rank him 1st, that counts as top 10. If I rank him outside of the top 3, he's still top 10. Top 10 doesn't = 10th.

 

[Romang67]

It worked out great for them since they won 3 cups.

In 1999?

You seem to be arguing that Brodeur has more wins and more cups than Hasek. This isn't really something you need to spend time on arguing. It's inarguable. He DOES have more wins and more cups than Hasek does.

 

[thefutures]

2 more harts 2 more vezinas almost 45% less games played. Yeah the poll results make sense.

 

[Winger98]

Hasek. I'd take Roy over Brodeur, too.

 

[AlwaysSunnyInDetroit]

130 playoff+80 international+735 regular season=1300 total?

plus the 353 games he played in the cssr in czechoslovakia before he came to north america. 353 + 735 + 130 + 80 = 1300

 

[Romang67]

Hasek. I'd take Roy over Brodeur, too.

I don't really think Brodeur has any case over Roy. Roy's resume is just Brodeur's on steroids. Unless you value the extra games played that much, I suppose.

 

[dgibb10]

plus the 353 games he played in the cssr in czechoslovakia before he came to north america. 353 + 735 + 130 + 80 = 1300

Oh we're including games since he was 16.

I believe that would put broduers total up to 1674

 

[sabremike]

It worked out great for them since they won 3 cups.

What does this fact have to do with the 98-99 season and how it went?

 

[dgibb10]

What does this fact have to do with the 98-99 season and how it went?

The point of how playing more games to get higher seeds can lead to more postseason success?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Such wisdom!

I know, but I'm also a goaltender myself, who grew up watching these guys in the 90s. You will never get me to pick Hasek above Marty, even with a gun to my head.

I've warmed up to the idea of Roy being GOAT, after considering his impact on the position overall.

But in my heart, it's always been Marty. He was every bit as bold and playful in the crease as Dom was, and possibly even more competitive. Superior puckhandling, obviously!

Does anybody here truly think that Martin Brodeur would not have been the player he was if he didn't play for New Jersey? It's just ludicrous to me. He was one of the most ultra-competitive, cocky athletes to ever play the game... the man was not going to be denied his place in history.

I watched these guys in the 90s as an adult. If my team had to win a single game, or I was betting on who wins the Vezina in a given year, Hasek is the only logical choice. And if I had to pick a goalie for a playoff run, it's clearly Roy with his 3 Smythes. Only when both of those guys aren't available does Brodeur even enter the conversation, and he's got some competition.

And, do you truly think that Brodeur wins 3 Cups and sticks around for 21 years if he's playing in Buffalo or Florida or anywhere but a handful of teams during the pre-Cap era? He's still be the same player, but his resume would look a lot different, right?

 

[sabremike]

Imagine a goalie who

The point of how playing more games to get higher seeds can lead to more postseason success?

It didn't in that particular season and is also a completely nonsensical point.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

You lost all credibility when you suggest top 10 isn't good enough when Hasek, Roy, Dryden, Plante, Sawchuk, all hold very legitimate arguments to be ranked above Brodeur. I expect you are just trying to pick a fight here. "Top ten" can refer to anyone ranked 1 - 10. If you rank him 1st, that counts as top 10. If I rank him outside of the top 3, he's still top 10. Top 10 doesn't = 10th.

You stated he's closer to Joseph than Hasek, so unless you rank Cujo above any of the guys you mentioned. You've got Brodeur ranked in 6-10 level at best.

Why would I try to pick a fight? I don't, and never have had Brodeur as 1st or 2nd but he's locked into 3rd for me which is a lot closer to 1st than the maybe top 20 if he's lucky Curtis Joseph.

Also you specifically said top 10, if you had him 5 or higher, you would have said top 5.

 

[sabremike]

The Hasek Sabres were a legit cup contender for half a decade with a roster comparable to the Paul Holmgreen Whalers.

Let that sink in.

 

[BraveCanadian]

100% agree that Brodeur revolutionized puckhandling (hell, they invented the trapazoid for him!).

Hextall

 

[dgibb10]

The Hasek Sabres were a legit cup contender for half a decade with a roster comparable to the Paul Holmgreen Whalers.

Let that sink in.

So were the devils post lockout with an equally shit roster.

From 1994-2001 the Sabres ranked 11th, 18th, 14th, 13th, 17th, 17th, 20th, and 16th in goals for

From 2005-2013 the devils ranked: 21st, 24th, 17th, 26th, 15th, 19th, 30th, and 11th in goals for

(btw this was after Stevens and Neidermeyer were LONG gone AND they had added the trapezoid to specifically stop brodeur)

 

[ManofSteel55]

You stated he's closer to Joseph than Hasek, so unless you rank CuJp above any of the guys you mentioned. You've got Brodeur ranked in 7-10 level at best.

Why would I try to pick a fight? I don't, and never have had Brodeur as 1st or 2nd but he's locked into 3rd for me which is a lot closer to 1st than the maybe top 20 if he's lucky Curtis Joseph.

I feel that nobody is close to Hasek. I'm not ranking Brodeur at all, for me it's Hasek first, and by a lot, Roy second, by a lot, and then there is a group of guys who can all be argued for 3rd place, who I listed above. I said top 10, because I was trying to avoid the pissing match about whether Brodeur is 3rd, 4th, 7th, or wherever in the top 10, but here you are trying to start one.

I said Cujo is closer to Broduer than Brodeur is to Hasek for the same reason I would say that a top 10 forward outside of the top 3 is closer to a top 50 forward than they are to Gretzky. For arguments sake, let's use Bobby Hull as an example. Would you disagree if I had suggested that Hull was closer to a Steve Yzerman than he was to Gretzky? Even if Hull is widely considered a top 10 forward of all time, he was nowhere near Gretzky. I stand by what I had said about Brodeur being closer to Joseph than he was to Hasek, because nobody was close to Hasek.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

2 more harts 2 more vezinas almost 45% less games played. Yeah the poll results make sense.

I feel like this is the biggest reason for anyone to take Brodeur. No issue with people taking Hasek though, he's the best ever to do it.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

I feel that nobody is close to Hasek. I'm not ranking Brodeur at all, for me it's Hasek first, and by a lot, Roy second, by a lot, and then there is a group of guys who can all be argued for 3rd place, who I listed above. I said top 10, because I was trying to avoid the pissing match about whether Brodeur is 3rd, 4th, 7th, or wherever in the top 10, but here you are trying to start one.

I said Cujo is closer to Broduer than Brodeur is to Hasek for the same reason I would say that a top 10 forward outside of the top 3 is closer to a top 50 forward than they are to Gretzky. For arguments sake, let's use Bobby Hull as an example. Would you disagree if I had suggested that Hull was closer to a Steve Yzerman than he was to Gretzky? Even if Hull is widely considered a top 10 forward of all time, he was nowhere near Gretzky. I stand by what I had said about Brodeur being closer to Joseph than he was to Hasek, because nobody was close to Hasek.

Oh I see, we were just looking at it differently I was looking at it like 3 is closer to 1 than 6 is to 20.

Legitimately not trying to start any kind of pissing match, I just see it differently than you do, I don't think the gap between Hasek - Roy - Brodeur is as massive as you do, and that's just fine.

 

[SUX2BU]

Fatso

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Aside from the Gold at the Olympics in 1998, the Czechs would also win the World Championships for three straight years, in 1999, 2000 and 2001, as well as the World Juniors in 2000 and 2001.

This is true, but keep in mind that none of these were anything close to being a "best on best" tournament. These ran during April/May, so most of the best players were still in the NHL playoffs. And many players chose to skip it, even if they were available, because it didn't have close to the same level of prestige as the Olympics.

As one example (and you can pick other years and see the same thing) - in the 1999 tournament, the Canadian team was missing Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, Pronger, MacInnis, Stevens, Bourque, Sakic, Yzerman, Lindros, Kariya, Fleury, Shanahan, Robitaille, etc. The Swedish team was missing Lidstrom, Forsberg, Selanne, Sundin, etc. The Russian team was missing Fedorov, Bure, Zubov, etc. The Americans were missing Modano, Hull, Nieuwendyk, Chelios, Leetch, Hatcher, Roenick, LeClair, Amonte, Tkachuk, etc. The same (general) pattern is true in 2000 and 2001. There were so far from being a best-on-best tournament that it doesn't tell us much.

 

[dgibb10]

Crazy how Brodeur won back to back vezina's after the 2 dman who apparently carried him left and the system that apparently also carried him got basically decimated with rule changes post lockout

I watched these guys in the 90s as an adult. If my team had to win a single game, or I was betting on who wins the Vezina in a given year, Hasek is the only logical choice. And if I had to pick a goalie for a playoff run, it's clearly Roy with his 3 Smythes. Only when both of those guys aren't available does Brodeur even enter the conversation, and he's got some competition.

And, do you truly think that Brodeur wins 3 Cups and sticks around for 21 years if he's playing in Buffalo or Florida or anywhere but a handful of teams during the pre-Cap era? He's still be the same player, but his resume would look a lot different, right?

He stuck around for a decade post lockout on a team that wasn't very good.

Hasek couldn't even be bothered to stick around for a superteam in detroit, or suit up for another star studded team in ottawa despite being cleared by doctors.

And Roy was the one who demanded a trade to the team who finished 1st in the east the second things started to get tough

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Listen, Hasek was the better goalie, but I don’t see the need to pull down or hand wave away what Brodeur accomplished to try and prove that, which is what you were doing.

I'm not waving away what he did. He was obviously good enough for his team to make the SCF, but it's hard to accept the claim that he "carried them to the finals" after looking at it in context. He was 6th in SV% and GAA among the 8 goalies who made it past the first round. He wasn't standing on his head every night like Hasek had to in Buffalo, so I refuse to accept the claim that they are even remotely similar accomplishments.

 

[NyQuil]

This is true, but keep in mind that none of these were anything close to being a "best on best" tournament. These ran during April/May, so most of the best players were still in the NHL playoffs. And many players chose to skip it, even if they were available, because it didn't have close to the same level of prestige as the Olympics.

As one example (and you can pick other years and see the same thing) - in the 1999 tournament, the Canadian team was missing Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, Pronger, MacInnis, Stevens, Bourque, Sakic, Yzerman, Lindros, Kariya, Fleury, Shanahan, Robitaille, etc. The Swedish team was missing Lidstrom, Forsberg, Selanne, Sundin, etc. The Russian team was missing Fedorov, Bure, Zubov, etc. The Americans were missing Modano, Hull, Nieuwendyk, Chelios, Leetch, Hatcher, Roenick, LeClair, Amonte, Tkachuk, etc. The same (general) pattern is true in 2000 and 2001. There were so far from being a best-on-best tournament that it doesn't tell us much.

Keep in mind that the World Championships do say something about national depth (aside from the US). European teams are also missing players due to the NHL playoffs.

For a small country like the Czechs to win three straight World Championships, playing against the likes of Joe Thornton, Vincent Lecavalier, Ryan Smyth, Wade Redden, Todd Bertuzzi, Shane Doan is no small feat.

We're talking about a very small hockey nation winning every type of hockey competition for almost four years.

I enjoy best-on-best tournaments as much as the next guy but the necessarily small sample size of games doesn't tell us all that much either.

Otherwise we'd be raving about the Belarussian wave of players that would undoubtedly have filled up the NHL following their powerhouse victory over the strongest team in the tournament up to that point, Sweden, in 2002.

 

[dgibb10]

I'm not waving away what he did. He was obviously good enough for his team to make the SCF, but it's hard to accept the claim that he "carried them to the finals" after looking at it in context. He was 6th in SV% and GAA among the 8 goalies who made it past the first round. He wasn't standing on his head every night like Hasek had to in Buffalo, so I refuse to accept the claim that they are even remotely similar accomplishments.

Brodeur had a 0.934 on route to the cup that year at age 40

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Crazy how Brodeur won back to back vezina's after the 2 dman who apparently carried him left and the system that apparently also carried him got basically decimated with rule changes post lockout


He stuck around for a decade post lockout on a team that wasn't very good.

Hasek couldn't even be bothered to stick around for a superteam in detroit, or suit up for another star studded team in ottawa despite being cleared by doctors.

And Roy was the one who demanded a trade to the team who finished 1st in the east the second things started to get tough

To put that another way, Brodeur stuck around on a team where he had won 3 Cups and was treated like a king. And, he didn't need to chase a Cup late in his career, because he was fortunate enough to be on one of the 4 good teams in the NHL during his prime. But, sure, let's pretend Hasek is a bad guy for not being on one of those 4 teams and needing to chase a Cup.


Also, who did Brodeur beat for those Vezinas after the lockout? How many HOFers in that list?