Martin Brodeur vs Dominik Hasek, who would you draft

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Only one of the goalies needed 9 other hall of famers to win a stanley cup and it wasn't brodeur.

Who cares? Brodeur had 2 hall of fame defensemen in front of him for the first 10 years of his career and for all 3 of the Cups his team won. And Brodeur's team only made it out of the 2nd round of the playoffs once without Stevens and Neidermeyer.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I'm amazed that Brodeur has so many more votes, and even more confused that several of the people selecting Brodeur cite "longevity" as the reason for the choice, despite the fact that Hasek had a longer career and played at a much higher level in his last seasons.

People seem to misunderstand the question. The question was who would you draft, and if you drafted Hasek today, you wouldn't be waiting several years for him to come over to North America.

Hasek was drafted in 1983, but didn't suit up in the NHL until 1990. He turned pro, in Europe, at age 16, won a league championship in 1987, played in the 1988 Winter Olympics, won another league championship in 1989, and then made his NHL debut in 1990.

Before he ever suited up for the Blackhawks, he had already played ten seasons of professional hockey, and then played 16 NHL seasons, and then played two more years of pro hockey after he left the NHL.

It's impossibly stupid that people are selection Brodeur based on "longevity" when Hasek played an astounding 28 seasons of professional hockey.

It seems like people are looking at when he became a starter in the NHL and are equating that with being a late bloomer who could not have been a starter sooner. But that ignores the context of his early NHL career.

 

[tsujimoto74]

I'd rather have the goat for the 1259 games he played

You have to be a former roommate of mine. There’s no way there’s more than 1 person who actually thinks Brodeur was better than Hasek. They played in the league at the same time, and Brodeur couldn’t even sniff the Vezina during that overlap for a reason.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

The gap between Cujo and Brodeur is probably similar to the gap between Hasek and Brodeur. Hasek is the greatest goalie of all time, hands down. Marty is top 10. Cujo is lower on the list, where there isn't as much separation between players. The biggest difference was that Brodeur played on contenders, and Cujo didn't, until later in his career when he went to Detroit, but he was starting to age out by then.

You lost all credibility when you said Brodeur is only top 10

 

[Mirka the Turka]

I am someone who truthfully never thought Brodeur was all that good. Yes, he holds the wins title and blah blah blah. But something about him just never screamed “ best goalie of all time”

Well you never truly watched him then or followed the team

I started watching him truly after his 3 cup wins. He took crappy Devils teams with an ok offense and poor defense to annual division titles and/or easily made the playoffs with the team. He was incredible, he would always outplay opposition goalies. As soon as the Devils got a decent team, although not a great team, Brodeur carried them in 2012 to a cup finals at an old age.

I very well know Brodeur is the greatest goalie of all time. His hybrid style was too dominant and no goalie has been able to emulate it. On top of that his puck handling skills would prevent the opposition from dumping in the puck. There's a reason he has the most win and shutouts, and it's not because he was on a good team because for most of his career he was on some average teams that he personally propped up.

 

[FerrisRox]

It seems like people are looking at when he became a starter in the NHL and are equating that with being a late bloomer who could not have been a starter sooner. But that ignores the context of his early NHL career.

He's a "late bloomer" with two professional championships and an Olympic Games on his resume.

 

[tsujimoto74]

I'm amazed that Brodeur has so many more votes, and even more confused that several of the people selecting Brodeur cite "longevity" as the reason for the choice, despite the fact that Hasek had a longer career and played at a much higher level in his last seasons.

People seem to misunderstand the question. The question was who would you draft, and if you drafted Hasek today, you wouldn't be waiting several years for him to come over to North America.

Hasek was drafted in 1983, but didn't suit up in the NHL until 1990. He turned pro, in Europe, at age 16, won a league championship in 1987, played in the 1988 Winter Olympics, won another league championship in 1989, and then made his NHL debut in 1990.

Before he ever suited up for the Blackhawks, he had already played ten seasons of professional hockey, and then played 16 NHL seasons, and then played two more years of pro hockey after he left the NHL.

It's impossibly stupid that people are selection Brodeur based on "longevity" when Hasek played an astounding 28 seasons of professional hockey.

I bet a lot of them are people who weren’t alive/old enough in the 90s to know that context from lived experience and are just guessing Hasek was a late bloomer based on when he actually became an NHL starter. Dude was the best goalie ever to do it, and we were robbed of several years of his physical prime in the NHL.

 

[dgibb10]

Who cares? Brodeur had 2 hall of fame defensemen in front of him for the first 10 years of his career and for all 3 of the Cups his team won. And Brodeur's team only made it out of the 2nd round of the playoffs once without Stevens and Neidermeyer.

The only HOFers broduer played with post lockout were 40+ year old jagr in 2014, and 34 games of 40 year old brendan shanahan. Because you'll shit on elias.

Stevens and Neidermeyer are talked about so positively when it's time to disparage Elias or Brodeur, but never when it's in comparisons with other HOFer dmen.

You'd think we were talking about Chris Chellios and Nik Lidstrom. (oh wait that's who hasek needed, along with 7 other HOF forwards, to win his only cup as a starter)

They finished above average in goals scored 1 time (and Broduer took them to the stanley cup in that year) post lockout.

Brodeur is criticized for not winning with no help
Hasek is praised.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Well you never truly watched him then or followed the team

I started watching him truly after his 3 cup wins. He took crappy Devils teams with an ok offense and poor defense to annual division titles and/or easily made the playoffs with the team. He was incredible, he would always outplay opposition goalies. As soon as the Devils got a decent team, although not a great team, Brodeur carried them in 2012 to a cup finals at an old age.

I very well know Brodeur is the greatest goalie of all time. His hybrid style was too dominant and no goalie has been able to emulate it. On top of that his puck handling skills would prevent the opposition from dumping in the puck. There's a reason he has the most win and shutouts, and it's not because he was on a good team because for most of his career he was on some average teams that he personally propped up.

In 2012 when Brodeur allegedly carried them to the Finals, Kovalchuk was 5th in the NHL in scoring. Elias was 10th. Parise was 23rd.

In 1998-99, when Hasek dragged the Sabres to the Cup Finals, Miroslav Satan was 27th in the NHL in scoring, and the only Sabre in the top 50.

 

[Mirka the Turka]

In 2012 when Brodeur allegedly carried them to the Finals, Kovalchuk was 5th in the NHL in scoring. Elias was 10th. Parise was 23rd.

In 1998-99, when Hasek dragged the Sabres to the Cup Finals, Miroslav Satan was 27th in the NHL in scoring, and the only Sabre in the top 50.

Brodeur was 40 years old at that point. And the Devils had no D-men at the time, their best D-man was Bryce Salvador/Marek Zidlicky that year.

I have no doubt Brodeur would have taken that same Sabres team to a cup final.

Hasek has only had 1 season with 40+ wins, Brodeur has 8. Hasek just couldn't win like Brodeur could. Sure he could flop around and make every save look highlight real. But Brodeur could actually stop the puck and win games without making it look sexy.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I have no doubt Brodeur would have taken that same Sabres team to a cup final.

Regular season
Hasek .937
Brodeur .906

Playoffs
Hasek .939
Brodeur .856

Gonna go ahead and say there’s some doubt about this.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

In 2012 when Brodeur allegedly carried them to the Finals, Kovalchuk was 5th in the NHL in scoring. Elias was 10th. Parise was 23rd.

In 1998-99, when Hasek dragged the Sabres to the Cup Finals, Miroslav Satan was 27th in the NHL in scoring, and the only Sabre in the top 50.

Want to take a guess how many top 50 scorers Brodeur hade in 1995 and 2003 on teams he won the Stanley Cup with?

 

[Romang67]

Brodeur was 40 years old at that point. And the Devils had no D-men at the time, their best D-man was Bryce Salvador/Marek Zidlicky that year.

I have no doubt Brodeur would have taken that same Sabres team to a cup final.

Hasek has only had 1 season with 40+ wins, Brodeur has 8. Hasek just couldn't win like Brodeur could. Sure he could flop around and make every save look highlight real. But Brodeur could actually stop the puck and win games without making it look sexy.

If only Hasek had one of the biggest upsets in Olympic history to indicate that he could indeed win.

 

[dahrougem2]

Give me the guy with 6 Vezinas

 

[GMR]

The one who isn’t slightly overweight and reliant on a great defense/system in front of him.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

The only HOFers broduer played with post lockout were 40+ year old jagr in 2014, and 34 games of 40 year old brendan shanahan. Because you'll shit on elias.

Stevens and Neidermeyer are talked about so positively when it's time to disparage Elias or Brodeur, but never when it's in comparisons with other HOFer dmen.

You'd think we were talking about Chris Chellios and Nik Lidstrom. (oh wait that's who hasek needed, along with 7 other HOF forwards, to win his only cup as a starter)

They finished above average in goals scored 1 time (and Broduer took them to the stanley cup in that year) post lockout.

Brodeur is criticized for not winning with no help
Hasek is praised.

Is that why Brodeur's teams only made it out of the 2nd round once post-lockout? Because he didn't have more HOFers on the roster?

And I simply pointed out that Niedermeyer and Stevens are both in the HOF, and were on Brodeur's team for the first decade of his career. If you want to claim that they don't count as HOFers because they aren't Chelios and Lidstrom, have fun with that. They are still much better than anything Hasek ever had in Buffalo. Brian Rafalski probably could have been the Sabres 1D for most of Hasek's tenure.

 

[Mirka the Turka]

If only Hasek had one of the biggest upsets in Olympic history to indicate that he could indeed win.

Hasek NHL wins: 389 (very low)

Brodeur NHL wins: 691 (most in NHL history)

Brodeur has won it all, 3 cups as a starter (Hasek only has 1), Olympic gold medals, numerous division titles, unbelievable amount of playoff apperances.

Brodeur is the GOAT

 

[Romang67]

Hasek NHL wins: 389 (very low)

Brodeur NHL wins: 691 (most in NHL history)

Brodeur has won it all, 3 cups as a starter (Hasek only has 1), Olympic gold medals, numerous division titles, unbelievable amount of playoff apperances.

Brodeur is the GOAT

Brodeur sure has more wins than Hasek. Is that what we're discussing? Because that isn't really up for debate.

I thought we were discussing "You get to draft one of the two to your favorite team right now and take into account that you will have them for their whole career and not just peak, who do you take?"

 

[jigglysquishy]

Brodeur is very much not the greatest goalie ever. I don't have him in my top 3 and can see him as low as 6.

We're in the midst of a top 60 goalie project on HoH. I suspect Brodeur ends up 4th or 5th, but I also suspect he doesn't get a single 1st place vote.

 

[JackSlater]

In 2012 when Brodeur allegedly carried them to the Finals, Kovalchuk was 5th in the NHL in scoring. Elias was 10th. Parise was 23rd.

In 1998-99, when Hasek dragged the Sabres to the Cup Finals, Miroslav Satan was 27th in the NHL in scoring, and the only Sabre in the top 50.

Regular season
Hasek .937
Brodeur .906

Playoffs
Hasek .939
Brodeur .856

Gonna go ahead and say there’s some doubt about this.

It doesn't matter what Buffalo was like in the regular season in 1999, in those playoffs Buffalo had the best offence in the NHL in goals per game until the finals, and also showed great consistency by scoring at least two goals every single game, which in low scoring 1999 meant giving your goaltender a pretty decent chance. It was also a generally defensive team filled with defensive forwards - the team happened to get hot offensively in the playoffs. It's very likely that other goaltenders could have gotten to the finals behind a defensive oriented team that also happened to score goals better than any other team for a few weeks. Predictably things changed once the team faced Dallas in the finals, and even peak Brodeur would not have gotten Buffalo through that series either.

The talk of Hasek's longevity is generally unfair. The guy was Czechoslovakia's goaltender at the best on best level as a teenager in 1984. He was still near an elite level in 2006 and 2007. Now it's likely that playing in the NHL earlier, and playing that increase in number of games, would have cost him some games/seasons on the end of his career, but it isn't all that different from his contemporary Roy, or Brodeur. He just happened to play behind the iron curtain and then end up on the HL team with the deepest young goaltending pool in the NHL.

 

[dgibb10]

Is that why Brodeur's teams only made it out of the 2nd round once post-lockout? Because he didn't have more HOFers on the roster?

And I simply pointed out that Niedermeyer and Stevens are both in the HOF, and were on Brodeur's team for the first decade of his career. If you want to claim that they don't count as HOFers because they aren't Chelios and Lidstrom, have fun with that. They are still much better than anything Hasek ever had in Buffalo. Brian Rafalski probably could have been the Sabres 1D for most of Hasek's tenure.

Hasek not winning a cup without help: flirting
Broduer not winning a cup without help: harassment

Hasek had a superteam around him in Detroit. He chose to quit.

He had the number 1 offense around him (and a team that made the cup finals without him) in Ottawa.
He then went and got hurt playing internationally, and then refused to suit up for Ottawa in the playoffs despite being cleared by doctors.

 

[TheMistyStranger]

I love Marty, but this is Dom by a lot. He was literally a genetic freak and played the position like one, to the point where no one can really compare. The gap between Roy and Brodeur is much closer than the one between Dom and either of the others.

Obviously I'm a Sabres fan, but I watched a lot of the Devils and Habs/Avs back then, as a frequent on-ice goalie myself, and there's no comparison.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Which teams are we saying he carried? the 9 HOFer Red Wings?

I would imagine that's in reference to Hasek carrying the 1998 Czech Olympic hockey team to the gold medal (a team that only had 1 HOF'er aside from Hasek). The Czech were outshot 89-71 over the three elimination games. The three opponents featured 22(!) HOF'ers. Hasek did okay, allowing 2 goals on 89 shots in the process, and he stopped all five Canadian players in the shootout. He was also named tournament MVP.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Want to take a guess how many top 50 scorers Brodeur hade in 1995 and 2003 on teams he won the Stanley Cup with?

At least 1. Stephane Ricter was tied for 49th in 95, and probably would have been higher if he hadn't missed a couple games.

 

[dgibb10]

I would imagine that's in reference to Hasek carrying the 1998 Czech Olympic hockey team to the gold medal (a team that only had 1 HOF'er aside from Hasek). The Czech were outshot 89-71 over the three elimination games. The three opponents featured 22(!) HOF'ers. Hasek did okay, allowing 2 goals on 89 shots in the process, and he stopped all five Canadian players in the shootout. He was also named tournament MVP.

3 games is nice.

If only Bobby Clarke (notable Brodeur hater) would have picked a better roster and started the right goalie that year. But I digress

Can you do it for 367 games over 4 years like brodeur did from 1999-2003 to win 2 cups and a gold medal?