Martin Brodeur vs Dominik Hasek, who would you draft

[CuuuJooo]

Hextall

Valid point. I don't feel like he consistently set the puck up as much for his defence so much as played it up the boards, but I was pretty young when he was in his prime.

I mean, also Plante?

 

[dgibb10]

To put that another way, Brodeur stuck around on a team where he had won 3 Cups and was treated like a king. And, he didn't need to chase a Cup late in his career, because he was fortunate enough to be on one of the 4 good teams in the NHL during his prime. But, sure, let's pretend Hasek is a bad guy for not being on one of those 4 teams and needing to chase a Cup.


Also, who did Brodeur beat for those Vezinas after the lockout? How many HOFers in that list?

He beat Hasek and Henrik Lundqvist.

Hasek was on a team with NINE HOFERS. The number 1 AND 2 in norris voting. And he still decided to quit. Hasek has nobody to blame for his lack of cups except himself for retiring.

 

[Romang67]

Brodeur had a 0.934 on route to the cup that year at age 40

Turns out average save percentage changed slightly between 99 and 09.

Brodeur's final save percentage of .929 had a Z-score of 0.8 in 2009.

Hasek's final save percentage of .939 had a Z-score of 2.3 in 1999.

It's the difference between -

Certainly helped the team in winning the playoffs

and

Probably should have won the Conn Smythe despite being on the losing side.

Goaltender Statistics and Analysis

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Brodeur had a 0.934 on route to the cup that year at age 40

Everything I'm seeing shows a 0.917. Even if we ignore the finals, he's still only 0.923 and stays in 6th place.

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

Hasek

 

[dgibb10]

Everything I'm seeing shows a 0.917. Even if we ignore the finals, he's still only 0.923 and stays in 6th place.

0.923 you're right.

Just want to clarify:

Roy cups on teams that were already elite before him=WOW (and with HOF dmen as well)
Hasek cup on the greatest superteam assembled in the 21st century=WOW
Brodeur cups on a team that wasn't elite before he got there, with 2 great dman=unimpressive?

 

[Romang67]

0.923 you're right.

Just want to clarify:

Roy cups on teams that were already elite before him=WOW (and with HOF dmen as well)
Hasek cup on the greatest superteam assembled in the 21st century=WOW
Brodeur cups on a team that wasn't elite before he got there, with 2 great dman=unimpressive?

Why are you acting as if people who are arguing that Hasek was the superior goaltender are doing so off the back of his win with the Red Wings?

His Stanley Cup win showed that he was plenty capable of winning the Stanley Cup when on a much better team than the Sabres.

His 6 Vezina Trophies (which he won while playing concurrently with 2 other top 6 of all time goalies), 2 Hart Trophies, arguably unprecedented save percentage, Olympic Gold, etc. are things people are actually pointing to as evidence that he's the best goaltender.

 

[dgibb10]

Why are you acting as if people who are arguing that Hasek was the superior goaltender are doing so off the back of his win with the Red Wings?

His Stanley Cup win showed that he was plenty capable of winning the Stanley Cup when on a much better team than the Sabres.

His 6 Vezina Trophies (which he won while playing concurrently with 2 other top 6 of all time goalies), 2 Hart Trophies, arguably unprecedented save percentage, Olympic Gold, etc. are things people are actually pointing to as evidence that he's the best goaltender.

Hasek was the BEST, when he played.

But only 9/10 elite regular seasons (and he quit on the team in 2 of those postseasons in 97 and 06), and he didn't take on anything close to the workload brodeur did (because he couldn't handle it)

Remember when Hasek assaulted a press member after quitting on his team and Steve Shields came in a won a playoff series for that Sabres team that was apparently so pitifully bad.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

He beat Hasek and Henrik Lundqvist.

Hasek was on a team with NINE HOFERS. The number 1 AND 2 in norris voting. And he still decided to quit. Hasek has nobody to blame for his lack of cups except himself for retiring.

Hasek was 42 years old and Lundqvist was just starting his career, so, again, I'm not extremely impressed by this alleged accomplishment.

I also don't have any issue with a 37 year old goalie retiring after finally winning a Cup, nor do I have a problem with him coming back at 39 if he still has the desire and ability to play. And that pre-lockout, no salary cap Wings team was stacked, no question. And that's exactly why Hasek went there to try to win his retirement Cup, and I don't blame him in the slightest. It's not like there was another team that could give him a better chance at winning.

 

[dgibb10]

Hasek was 42 years old and Lundqvist was just starting his career, so, again, I'm not extremely impressed by this alleged accomplishment.

I also don't have any issue with a 37 year old goalie retiring after finally winning a Cup, nor do I have a problem with him coming back at 39 if he still has the desire and ability to play. And that pre-lockout, no salary cap Wings team was stacked, no question. And that's exactly why Hasek went there to try to win his retirement Cup, and I don't blame him in the slightest. It's not like there was another team that could give him a better chance at winning.

I'd rather have the guy who I can trust to
a) stay healthy
b) not demand a trade
c) not retire out of nowhere
d) handle a full workload
e) not quit on my team in the playoffs like hasek did. Twice

for 20 years

Ask the GM who drafted brodeur how well it's worked out for him in the 35 years since. He's STILL got a GM job because of brodeur's excellence

Hasek might try and get you fired if you don't get along like he did his coach. In fact in that Feud with his coach, I'm pretty sure it did end with the GM who acquired hasek from chicago getting fired

 

[Romang67]

Hasek was the BEST, when he played.

But only 9/10 elite regular seasons (and he quit on the team in 2 of those postseasons in 97 and 06), and he didn't take on anything close to the workload brodeur did (because he couldn't handle it)

Remember when Hasek assaulted a press member after quitting on his team and Steve Shields came in a won a playoff series for that Sabres team that was apparently so pitifully bad.

If only we would have had Hasek from the moment he was drafted instead of having to wait for him to get out from behind the iron curtain.

Oh wait:

"You get to draft one of the two to your favorite team right now and take into account that you will have them for their whole career and not just peak, who do you take?"

 

[Aladyyn]

I'd rather have the guy who I can trust to
a) stay healthy
b) not demand a trade
c) not retire out of nowhere
d) handle a full workload
e) not quit on my team in the playoffs like hasek did. Twice

for 20 years

Ask the GM who drafted brodeur how well it's worked out for him in the 35 years since. He's STILL got a GM job because of brodeur's excellence

Hasek might try and get you fired if you don't get along like he did his coach. In fact in that Feud with his coach, I'm pretty sure it did end with the GM who acquired hasek from chicago getting fired

Hašek was better by so much that none of this matters. It's also a little silly to say he couldn't handle a full workload when he literally won a Vezina playing more games than Brodeur.

 

[dgibb10]

If only we would have had Hasek from the moment he was drafted instead of having to wait for him to get out from behind the iron curtain.

Oh wait:

"You get to draft one of the two to your favorite team right now and take into account that you will have them for their whole career and not just peak, who do you take?"

That 9/10 includes seasons in detroit and ottawa.

Or is this the part where we pretend hasek gets a magical extra 5 years of excellence (he didn't win a starting job in 3 years in the NHL).

And we pretend that hasek didn't feud with coaches, teammates, media.

And that he didn't demand trades or retire abruptly.

 

[Romang67]

That 9/10 includes seasons in detroit and ottawa.

Or is this the part where we pretend hasek gets a magical extra 5 years of excellence (he didn't win a starting job in 3 years in the NHL).

And we pretend that hasek didn't feud with coaches, teammates, media.

And that he didn't demand trades or retire abruptly.

Cool, we're back to the questions that I didn't get you to respond to yesterday:

What about Hasek's career in Europe, where he was the best goaltender in Europe and excelled in international play, or his early career in the NHL where he equalled or eclipsed save percentages of established goalies or Vezina winners gives you the idea that he wouldn't have been capable of being an NHL starter before age 29?

I don't know where this idea comes from that Hasek was incapable of being elite before 1994.

He was already starting goaltender for Czechoslovakia at the 1984 Canada Cup at age 19. He was the best European goalie in the world by 1987.

Hasek had already built up a reputation as elite before even joining the NHL. Second or third best European goalie ever before the iron curtain fell.

From first elite game until last is 24 years.

 

[dgibb10]

Hašek was better by so much that none of this matters. It's also a little silly to say he couldn't handle a full workload when he literally won a Vezina playing more games than Brodeur.

He's played 60 games 5 times in his career.

One of which he then got "injured" and quit on his team come playoff time and then assaulted a media member while Steve Shields won a playoff series in his place.

 

[dgibb10]

Cool, we're back to the questions that I didn't get you to respond to yesterday:

What about Hasek's career in Europe, where he was the best goaltender in Europe and excelled in international play, or his early career in the NHL where he equalled or eclipsed save percentages of established goalies or Vezina winners gives you the idea that he wouldn't have been capable of being an NHL starter before age 29?

Remind me to add another 50 wins, a pretend vezina, and a pretend cup to brodeur for the lockout season he lost in his prime. Where he had actually proven to be an elite NHL goaltender at that time.

European success=/=nhl success.

 

[Romang67]

Remind me to add another 50 wins, a pretend vezina, and a pretend cup to brodeur for the lockout season he lost in his prime. Where he had actually proven to be an elite NHL goaltender at that time.

European success=/=nhl success.

You're dodging the question. Since you forgot to actually answer the question:

What about Hasek's career in Europe, where he was the best goaltender in Europe and excelled in international play, or his early career in the NHL where he equalled or eclipsed save percentages of established goalies or Vezina winners gives you the idea that he wouldn't have been capable of being an NHL starter before age 29?

 

[dgibb10]

You're dodging the question. Since you forgot to actually answer the question:

What about Hasek's career in Europe, where he was the best goaltender in Europe and excelled in international play, or his early career in the NHL where he equalled or eclipsed save percentages of established goalies or Vezina winners gives you the idea that he wouldn't have been capable of being an NHL starter before age 29?

The fact that he failed to win a starting job in 3 years in the NHL from ages 26-29.

Brodeur was ACTUALLY an elite NHL goalie at 21-37

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Kudos to @Romang67 for taking a turn on the merry-go-round today.

My ride yesterday was enjoyable but I wouldn't do it twice.

 

[Romang67]

The fact that he failed to win a starting job in 3 years in the NHL from ages 26-29.

"or his early career in the NHL where he equalled or eclipsed save percentages of established goalies or Vezina winners gives you the idea that he wouldn't have been capable of being an NHL starter before age 29"

That was included in the question.

He came over from Europe and was immediately playing at at least the level of starting NHL goalies in the NHL. What gives you the idea that, had he come over earlier, he wouldn't have done that?

 

[FerrisRox]

Oh we're including games since he was 16.

I believe that would put broduers total up to 1674

Except Dominik Hasek was playing professional hockey when he was 16. Martin Brodeur wasn't even in Junior at that age.

If you want to count Brodeur's house league games, be my guest, but why? What do you think it proves?

 

[dgibb10]

"or his early career in the NHL where he equalled or eclipsed save percentages of established goalies or Vezina winners gives you the idea that he wouldn't have been capable of being an NHL starter before age 29"

That was included in the question.

He came over from Europe and was immediately playing at at least the level of starting NHL goalies in the NHL. What gives you the idea that, had he come over earlier, he wouldn't have done that?

Backup games and rest vs starters rest is not the same.

But the lack of understanding that seems to be pretty key to your argument.

 

[Romang67]

Kudos to @Romang67 for taking a turn on the merry-go-round today.

My ride yesterday was enjoyable but I wouldn't do it twice.

I feel well prepared. In part because I already asked all these questions earlier and they were summarily ignored.

 

[Romang67]

Backup games and rest vs starters rest is not the same.

But the lack of understanding that seems to be pretty key to your argument.

So you think he was capable of being a starter in Europe for 8 years where he consistently played over 50 games per season including international play, with stellar numbers, but you think he would have been incapable of doing so in the NHL?

I don't know, the fact that the moment he got the shot to be the starting goalie when Fuhr got injured, he promptly won the Vezina and was a Hart finalist, makes me think that is absolute nonsense.

 

[HarrySPlinkett]

Hasek.

Though he is the only guy I’d take ahead of Marty.

Put it another way - Hasek on the Devils has as many or more cups than Brodeur.

Brodeur on the Sabres doesn’t win six Vezinas and two Harts or go to the Finals in 1999.