Player Discussion Marner

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killer1980

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This is the Marner illusion. He is great during the regular season when he has lots of room to skate around and find the open ice/teammate and his miscues are not so critical.. Unfortunately, that open ice disappears during the playoffs and so does Marner. I used to say enjoy the regular seasons, this is not a playoff team. Now, I'm not even sure of the regular season.
 
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Antropovsky

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That's not the post I linked to. This is the post I linked to:
View attachment 926166
Lol this is bogus. You think Keefe wanted Marner playing perimeter hockey? You think his plan was to have Marner not get any slot shots or go to the net and get rebounds or deflections or tips?

In 2022 they held a team leader meeting, Muzzin, Thornton, Marner, Matthews, Keefe and Dubas and in that meeting Keefe specifically saod he didnt think the team was scoring playoff style goals and specifically said rebound goals. Muzzin and Joe agreed and Joe said "thats what playoff are all about, dirt dirty goals".

Watch from the 8 min mark. Keefe always wanted his team to be around the net more and to be more physical...he was only allowed to used kid gloves with them though.
 

Dekes For Days

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You think Keefe wanted Marner playing perimeter hockey? You think his plan was to have Marner not get any slot shots or go to the net and get rebounds or deflections or tips?
Keefe understands that he doesn't play perimeter hockey. He would know the fact that Marner does go to the net, and the slot is his most common shooting area in the playoffs over the past two years. He would also absolutely try to exploit weaknesses that goalies have, and utilize Marner's playmaking ability from the blueline in certain situations to better set up deflections and tips for others, because that's what good coaches do. And good players like Marner do what's needed for the team, even if it hurts some meaningless shot distance percentage change stat.
 

Antropovsky

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Keefe understands that he doesn't play perimeter hockey. He would know the fact that Marner does go to the net, and the slot is his most common shooting area in the playoffs over the past two years. He would also absolutely try to exploit weaknesses that goalies have, and utilize Marner's playmaking ability from the blueline in certain situations to better set up deflections and tips for others, because that's what good coaches do. And good players like Marner do what's needed for the team, even if it hurts some meaningless shot distance percentage change stat.
So it was Keefes genius plan to get Marner to shoot further from the net and shoot much less slot shots in the playoffs vs the season? And he specifically told Marner..."the plan is for only your stats are gonna get substantially worse than others"?

Distance from net
2023
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2024
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Slot shot %

2023
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2024
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thewave

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So it was Keefes genius plan to get Marner to shoot further from the net and shoot much less slot shots in the playoffs vs the season? And he specifically told Marner..."the plan is for only your stats are gonna get substantially worse than others"?

Distance from net
2023
View attachment 926175

2024
View attachment 926176


Slot shot %

2023
View attachment 926177
2024
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He already addressed that, you know back when with the bogus link to nowhere in particular. You need to calm down and stop using these hate stats. What are you trying to do make the team go into the shambles?
 

Dekes For Days

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So it was Keefes genius plan to get Marner to shoot further from the net and shoot much less slot shots in the playoffs vs the season?
Most of his shots weren't further from the net. He had a couple dump-ins registered as shots in the playoffs, skewing the average, and took a couple extra shots from the blueline to set up tips/deflections, exploit a known weakness in a goalie they faced, and score some goals. He also doesn't shoot less from the slot. Over the past 2 years, he averaged 1.41 slot shots per game in the regular season, and 1.39 in the playoffs.
 

Antropovsky

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He already addressed that, you know back when with the bogus link to nowhere in particular. You need to calm down and stop using these hate stats. What are you trying to do make the team go into the shambles?
Dont need stats to see that he is too cute and plays too much on the perimeter (though we have the stats too). Watch the video I posted where Keefe specifically says the Leafs don't score playoff style goals. He said this while the team was doing very well in the standings. However, he wanted to address it early because he wanted his players to go to the net and get some greasy goals and deflections.

Thornton says it in the video..."playoffs are all about the dirty dirty goals"

We all know that Marner does not go to the dirty dirty areas... We have two videos of him pulling the chute and we have video of him standing 35' from the crease while his linemates are fighting in the crease 6vs4.

Marner of all the Leafs is the big outlier in not going to dirty dirty areas and not playing playoff hockey. I've been saying this for years.

It's ridiculous but not at all surprising that @Dekes For Days is trying to argue that Keefe had made this their game plan lol. When he has been basically begging the Leafs to go to the net and get dirty goals.
 

sunstersun

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No one has ever logically explained to me why a short, weak, slow, and weakshot person would be good at North South Hockey.


It's actually the opposite of what I would want for North South hockey player.

Marner doesn't want to play north south, because he can't play it will imo. He did it like a warrior for one season and one playoffs in 2018, than we haven't seen anything like it since.

I don't even think marner fans would argue his tampa series in 2023 was north south lol.

edit:



If we got this Mitch every playoffs, I'd be happy with 12.5. He was a true warrior that sries.
 
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Antropovsky

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Not to sure how much he can endure though.

I can definitely see him shying away again or stopping altogether, once he secures an eight-year, no movement clause.

I've said this for years, what makes Marner so special that he gets to play shinny every day while his teammates endure pain and risk long-term injury by going to physical areas? Finally, Berube is making him do it. But for how long did Marner get away without doing it, all while collecting his $11 million? And then we're shocked when he looks completely overwhelmed and frightened in playoff hockey? Maybe if coaches had forced him into the dirty areas earlier, like Berube is now, he would have put on 20 pounds. Maybe he would have taken his offseason training seriously. Everyone knows he didn't take past offseasons seriously until this one, which was the talk of the town because he actually put in the work.

Yesterday, we even saw Marner show some anger, initiating a shove after the whistle. Wow, that's a first!If he were more involved in the physical areas, maybe we'd have seen more of these emotional reactions. Maybe he'd be more prepared for playoff hockey by now, grizzled and skilled in those dirty areas. Right now, he looks like a rookie in them, but hey, at least he will be a little more ready for playoff this year.
 
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ULF_55

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I'm disappointed the Little m, didn't become a center.

I keep hoping they get their next Keon, and as a center he could distribute left and right. Be good defensively, and PK, score short handed and run one line with Matthews running the other.

You don't have to be big to play center, but maybe lacking speed it was just easier to play wing?

Matthews
marner
Tavares
 

Peasy

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So it was Keefes genius plan to get Marner to shoot further from the net and shoot much less slot shots in the playoffs vs the season? And he specifically told Marner..."the plan is for only your stats are gonna get substantially worse than others"?

Distance from net
2023
View attachment 926175

2024
View attachment 926176


Slot shot %

2023
View attachment 926177
2024
View attachment 926178
Marner and Keefe are hockey geniuses, you just wouldnt understand...



/s
 

The Hanging Jowl

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Apr 2, 2017
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Gonna keep saying it. This team will go nowhere status quo. The last thing they need is another $13M player. I'd let him walk for nothing if he won't accept a trade. And I say that as a giant Marner fan. It's just not a workable formula.
 

Mess

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No one has ever logically explained to me why a short, weak, slow, and weakshot person would be good at North South Hockey.

It's actually the opposite of what I would want for North South hockey player.

There is a "Valid" reason Marner has not been re-signed yet and in fact the Leafs may walk away from him. This is a real prove-it year for him.

He has proven year after disappointing year come playoff time to be a soft. small, easily intimidated perimeter player, and as such not much of a factor, contributing a mere 11 playoff goals over 8 years and 9 playoff series. People forget Zero goals against CBJ playoff series, Zero goals against Montreal in fact 18 playoff games across 3 playoff years and 3 first round losses, where the Leafs could/should have won had Marner even contributed 1 single goal at a meaningful time. Some think this was just a bad 2023-24 playoff year when its really been 8 disappointing under performing years.

IF Marner wasn't hiding behind a full No Movement clause, would he still be a Leaf today? That might be a 50-50 proposition at best. Where Leafs claimed they would have preferred Change to their core 4.
 
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Dekes For Days

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It's ridiculous but not at all surprising that @Dekes For Days is trying to argue that Keefe had made this their game plan lol. When he has been basically begging the Leafs to go to the net and get dirty goals.
Every coach preaches going to the net and getting dirty goals, but that doesn't mean all 5 skaters should be in the crease at all times. Sometimes, you have a playmaker setting up tips and deflections in front. Sometimes, you shoot through established screens. Sometimes, you want to exploit and gameplan around known weaknesses in a goalie's game, like the one that Tampa's former assistant coach (not me) noted about Vasilevsky. That helped us win. Some of this is also just you not understanding the stats you're trying to use.

For the record, the video you posted was from early 2020-2021 regular season, not 2022 like you claimed, and we ended that season tied for 5th in rebound goals. We also had more rebound shots and goals than Montreal in the playoffs.
 

Antropovsky

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Every coach preaches going to the net and getting dirty goals, but that doesn't mean all 5 skaters should be in the crease at all times. Sometimes, you have a playmaker setting up tips and deflections in front. Sometimes, you shoot through established screens. Sometimes, you want to exploit and gameplan around known weaknesses in a goalie's game, like the one that Tampa's former assistant coach (not me) noted about Vasilevsky. That helped us win. Some of this is also just you not understanding the stats you're trying to use.

For the record, the video you posted was from early 2020-2021 regular season, not 2022 like you claimed, and we ended that season tied for 5th in rebound goals. We also had more rebound shots and goals than Montreal in the playoffs.
Again absolutely ridiculous...

Keefe: "Okay team, Marner is the designated wrister from the point, he is not to screen, deflect, or shoot from the slot.... everyone else this rule doesnt apply...oh AND he most certainly should not go onto corners for the puck or involve himself in scrums... if he does Im going to bench one of you depth players as punishment. "
 
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Dekes For Days

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Keefe: "Okay team, Marner is the designated wrister from the point, he is not to screen, deflect, or shoot from the slot.... everyone else this rule doesnt apply...oh AND he most certainly should not go onto corners for the puck or involve himself in scrums...
Marner does all of those things, though obviously coaching is about using a player to their strengths, so you'd generally want your playmakers to focus more on playmaking, goal-scorers to focus more on deflections and rebounds, grinders to focus more on screens, fighters to focus more on fights, etc. And when a goalie has a weakness, you take advantage of it.
 

Antropovsky

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Marner does all of those things, though obviously coaching is about using a player to their strengths, so you'd generally want your playmakers to focus more on playmaking, goal-scorers to focus more on deflections and getting shots from high-danger areas, grinders to focus more on screens, fighters to focus more on fights, etc.
lol...that isnt what coaches do. All coaches want their players playing in the dirty areas and picking up dirty goals.

The leagues best players do it all. What is Mackinnon? He had 51 goals and 140 points last year. Kucherov had 44 goals and 144 points..he has 10 goals in 12 games this year. Mcdavid won the rocket a couple years ago with 64 goals. Panarin had 49 goals and 120 points last year. Hes got 9 in 11 this year already. What was their coaches instructing them to be...shooters, passers, grinders?
 

Racer88

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Sep 29, 2020
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Not true - apparently we had massive success with the most perfectly built team, but for unexplained reasons we came just short of winning the Cup every year.
Dam I must have missed the success part and plain back luck in all this missed cups
 
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Dekes For Days

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lol...that isnt what coaches do.
Coaches absolutely play to the strengths of players, give them different roles and responsibilities, and put them in positions to help the team the most. They also absolutely game plan around the weaknesses of opposing goalies. Hockey isn't just 18 identical clones always skating straight for the crease.
 

mogs

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I’m saying I’d rather him develop that compared to fighting for no reason. He does need to fight, he needs to play with some more zest or piss and vinegar.
I agree with you there, it just doesn't seem like that will ever be part of his game unfortunately.
 

mogs

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This is the Marner illusion. He is great during the regular season when he has lots of room to skate around and find the open ice/teammate and his miscues are not so critical.. Unfortunately, that open ice disappears during the playoffs and so does Marner. I used to say enjoy the regular seasons, this is not a playoff team. Now, I'm not even sure of the regular season.
It will be really interesting to see his usage at the Four Nations tournament. Mayne Cooper will get through to him? It could be the first time in years that he wouldn't see the ice in a 6 on 5 situation with Canada needing a goal. McDavid, Mackinnon, Makar, Point, Crosby, Reinhart, Stone, even Marchand or Hyman if he makes it. Those players are either better than Marner or have a history of scoring clutch goals, which Marner does not have. I wonder in he will pout about riding the pine late in a game or being on PP2.
 
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