Player Discussion Marner

[thewave]

I really hope you're joking, and didn't actually misunderstand a simple statement that badly.

You talk in riddles about Marner. I don't think you really have to much consistency in what you are saying. One minute you argue this, then someone brings a legit counter argument and you take the argument away and just declare that doesn't apply even if it does.

I am not going to reference any one thing either. I just invite people to review the entire body of work. It's at that point.

Click on dekes name and follow the trail of posts and counter arguments morphing into this HFBoards Godzilla topic.

LOL you are a funny guy Dekes

 

[Hellcat]

Several times vs the Rangers, Marner gets pinned along the wall, stripped of the puck very easily. These types of plays happen constantly in the playoffs, separate man from puck physically.

I guess you see what you want to see, I noticed that he lost the puck a few times and also did an incredible job of stripping the puck and getting his stick in the passing lanes to intercept or tip pucks away. When you have the puck a lot you will lose the puck a lot

 

[thewave]

The first four games of a playoff series are not important? Can you win a series if you only win the final 3 games? He's there in the regular season right? Can you make the playoffs if you finish 9th?

Dismissing 85 games, only to focus on 3 games, seems like intentional selective bias, no?



If that is the case he is doing a poor job. Lots of whattabout pointless arguments.

The elimination games are less important?

 

[Hellcat]

The elimination games are less important?

Answering a question with a question? Answer mine first and I will answer yours.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The elimination games are less important?

Apparently only the regular season and the first 4 games of the playoffs matter. Then it's OK to stop playing, just lose and blame it on "a bounce here and a bounce there". There are enough gullible casual fans that will fall for it every time.

 

[thusk]

Apparently only the regular season and the first 4 games of the playoffs matter. Then it's OK to stop playing, just lose and blame it on "a bounce here and a bounce there". There are enough gullible casual fans that will fall for it every time.

i think the point wqs just regular season are important tha 1st 4 gane and elimination gane

. If you're not good enough in season, you just dont make playoff

first 4 game are important... If you're up 3-0, its much more easier to win a series than down 0-3 and its impossible to win a serie down 0-4

elimination gane are important : if you can close your series, you will still lose

If you missed anywhere in any of those situation, you've gonna fail... So giving more credit to only one part doesn't make sense

 

[Dekes For Days]

You talk in riddles about Marner. I don't think you really have to much consistency in what you are saying. One minute you argue this, then someone brings a legit counter argument and you take the argument away and just declare that doesn't apply even if it does. I am not going to reference any one thing either.

There are no riddles or inconsistency. I've explained and put it in the simplest terms I can, and addressed the points brought up. I don't really know how to help you if you still don't understand. That seems like a choice by you. I'm the only one that's based my position on something, I'm the only one that's supported my position, I'm the only one that's brought legit counter arguments, and I'm the only one getting their points ignored. Nothing specific to reference? Yeah, no kidding.

I just invite people to review the entire body of work.

Oh I invite them too! They might just learn something, and much preferred over people jumping into discussions they didn't read.

 

[Gary Nylund]

i think the point wqs just regular season are important tha 1st 4 gane and elimination gane

. If you're not good enough in season, you just dont make playoff

first 4 game are important... If you're up 3-0, its much more easier to win a series than down 0-3 and its impossible to win a serie down 0-4

elimination gane are important : if you can close your series, you will still lose

If you missed anywhere in any of those situation, you've gonna fail... So giving more credit to only one part doesn't make sense

Playoffs are much more important than regular season for a team like the Leafs who you can pretty much pencil in for the playoffs.

All playoff games are important and if you are only good for the first 4 games, you're never going to go deep. So sure, give credit to Marner for contributing in games 1-4, but how people can make excuses for him turning into captain mediore after game 4 year after year after year is beyond me.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Dismissing 85 games, only to focus on 3 games, seems like intentional selective bias, no?

I'll try to make this as simple as I can. The first thing you should try to understand is that nobody is dismissing anything. This is an incredibly stupid line that a number people are mindlessly parroting, don't fall for it.

The first 82 games, Marner overall plays great and he gets full credit for that. Repeat that to yourself as many times as you need before it's drilled into your head. Marner has been a great player in the regular season, he plays like an all-star, and almost nobody is unhappy with what he brings to the team for those first 82 games. Got it? Good.

Playoffs, he's great the first few games, then after that he's mediocre. That's the latter part of the 1st round, and all of round 2 the one time we got there.

So there you have it. He's very good in the regular season, but in the playoffs he's only good about half the time. That's why it's completely fair and accurate to say he's a great regular season player, but for whatever reason, he simply is not as effective in the playoffs. And that's why those of us who want to see the team win a cup during our lifetimes are questioning if he's worth the massive chunk of the cap that's allocated to him.

If there's any part of this that you're not clear on, feel free to ask and I'll try to explain as best I can.

 

[thewave]

There are no riddles or inconsistency. I've explained and put it in the simplest terms I can, and addressed the points brought up. I don't really know how to help you if you still don't understand. That seems like a choice by you. I'm the only one that's based my position on something, I'm the only one that's supported my position, I'm the only one that's brought legit counter arguments, and I'm the only one getting their points ignored. Nothing specific to reference? Yeah, no kidding.

Oh I invite them too! They might just learn something, and much preferred over people jumping into discussions they didn't read.

The only thing they will learn is how you avoid addressing Marners terrible elimination game performances and your horrible reasoning when it comes to comparables and fair compensation.

I didn't just flip the puck over the boards. I know your response will be tantamount to that though.

 

[Madap]

The first four games of a playoff series are not important? Can you win a series if you only win the final 3 games? He's there in the regular season right? Can you make the playoffs if you finish 9th?

Dismissing 85 games, only to focus on 3 games, seems like intentional selective bias, no?



If that is the case he is doing a poor job. Lots of whattabout pointless arguments.

Of course they are important. But playoff games are not the same as regular season, and the playoff game importance also increases as the series goes on. It really shouldn’t need to be explained that game 1 is much less important than game 7, and that there’s an incredible amount of additional pressure in elimination games. Marner is horrible as the pressure increases, and it’s not a small sample size. It’s near 10 years.

No one is saying he’s not a great player. He just lets the team down most when needed, and this is not something the leafs need when we already have Nylander and Matthews underperforming in the playoffs as well. All our stars have sucked, it’s just that Marner has sucked harder, especially relative to contracts.

I have no clue what the issue is with saying that and why everyone is so obsessed with defending him.

 

[stickty111]

So far though 5 games, Marner has been the problem on that line. If there is new accountibility with Berube, Marner should get demoted to the 2nd line.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The only thing they will learn is how you avoid addressing Marners terrible elimination game performances and your horrible reasoning when it comes to comparables and fair compensation.

They will see me address elimination games like I did here, and here, and here, etc., as well as the other majority of games that you like ignoring. They will also see the strong reasoning when it comes to comparables and fair compensation, like I've been discussing in this very thread, as well as the 100+ times I've explained it over the last half decade. I welcome anybody to read and learn about hockey.

 

[sunstersun]

I would say, Marner hasn't shown anything this season that would lead me to believe he's improved or that his playoff struggles won't continue.

Still not generating scoring opportunities, still overcomplicating the passes to Matthews for a perfect goal.

It's hard for Marner to force or drive play, he doesn't have an elite shot or speed.

I don't think he can beat the goalie straight up outside of luck or a breakaway.

Where is Marner going to improve as a player? I don't think he can grow taller, get faster, or shoot harder.

 

[Gary Nylund]

So far though 5 games, Marner has been the problem on that line. If there is new accountibility with Berube, Marner should get demoted to the 2nd line.

I can't wait for M&M to be separated. Call it a promotion - we trust you to drive your own line without the crutch of a Hart/Rocket/Lindsay winner to pass the puck to.

 

[sunstersun]

Wow, watching these highlights again is painful.

 

[thusk]

I'll try to make this as simple as I can. The first thing you should try to understand is that nobody is dismissing anything. This is an incredibly stupid line that a number people are mindlessly parroting, don't fall for it.

The first 82 games, Marner overall plays great and he gets full credit for that. Repeat that to yourself as many times as you need before it's drilled into your head. Marner has been a great player in the regular season, he plays like an all-star, and almost nobody is unhappy with what he brings to the team for those first 82 games. Got it? Good.

Playoffs, he's great the first few games, then after that he's mediocre. That's the latter part of the 1st round, and all of round 2 the one time we got there.

So there you have it. He's very good in the regular season, but in the playoffs he's only good about half the time. That's why it's completely fair and accurate to say he's a great regular season player, but for whatever reason, he simply is not as effective in the playoffs. And that's why those of us who want to see the team win a cup during our lifetimes are questioning if he's worth the massive chunk of the cap that's allocated to him.

If there's any part of this that you're not clear on, feel free to ask and I'll try to explain as best I can.

You can take what you said and transfert it to the entire team... If Marner/ Nylander/ Matthews and rest would play at same level gm 1 to 7 60 minute, result would not be the same.

Exemple taking first 40 off, dpwn 2-0 and started to play in 3rd period and finish with 1 goal 1 assist doesn't mean you've got a good game.

How many time did we saw leafs didn't show first 20-30min of a playoff game but raise his game after? Too much and its not about 1 player but the entire team.

Consistency had been #1 issue of every leafs player

 

[arso40]

I would say, Marner hasn't shown anything this season that would lead me to believe he's improved or that his playoff struggles won't continue.

Still not generating scoring opportunities, still overcomplicating the passes to Matthews for a perfect goal.

It's hard for Marner to force or drive play, he doesn't have an elite shot or speed.

I don't think he can beat the goalie straight up outside of luck or a breakaway.

Where is Marner going to improve as a player? I don't think he can grow taller, get faster, or shoot harder.

I wouldn’t say that I see Marner taking a more physical approach to things albeit he’s still under sized but he’s had a better approach on the forechecc for sure

 

[sunstersun]

You can take what you said and transfert it to the entire team... If Marner/ Nylander/ Matthews and rest would play at same level gm 1 to 7 60 minute, result would not be the same.

Exemple taking first 40 off, dpwn 2-0 and started to play in 3rd period and finish with 1 goal 1 assist doesn't mean you've got a good game.

How many time did we saw leafs didn't show first 20-30min of a playoff game but raise his game after? Too much and its not about 1 player but the entire team.

Consistency had been #1 issue of every leafs player

Isn't this just a complete deflection?

Yes this player has issues, but.... look at all these other issues other players have.

Ok, but lets get back to the title thread. Does Marner have issues? According to your statement yes.

Also, there is a thing called relatively. In terms of relative playoff performance to expectation it's been Marner > Tavares > Matthews > Nylander.

Yes Marner has been better than Tavares, but we're also talking about a guy in his ultra prime vs 34 year old who declined much worse than other stars.

 

[Gary Nylund]

You can take what you said and transfert it to the entire team... If Marner/ Nylander/ Matthews and rest would play at same level gm 1 to 7 60 minute, result would not be the same.

Exemple taking first 40 off, dpwn 2-0 and started to play in 3rd period and finish with 1 goal 1 assist doesn't mean you've got a good game.

How many time did we saw leafs didn't show first 20-30min of a playoff game but raise his game after? Too much and its not about 1 player but the entire team.

Consistency had been #1 issue of every leafs player

Marner's production drops off a cliff after game 4. He's not the only one who deserves criticism, but IMHO he's been the biggest playoff disappointment.

 

[Aashir Mallik]

He's looked how I expected to be, which has me a little disappointed

Solid defensively as always, and is digging for pucks a little bit more than previous years. However, he is still playing the same way in the offensive zone as he did with Keefe. He is always at or near the point and looking to create from there, whether it's a tip shot or a pass to someone. I'd wager 25-30% of Marner's shots aren't even aimed to score, but to get tipped. For an already pass first player, this just makes him seem even more pass first which I don't like. Moreover, I don't think a forward can succeed come playoff time playing like how Marner does, it's not even perimeter it's something above it. He stands at the point and shoots muffins. He didn't always play like this, I remember the first couple of years of Keefe he never played this high up this often, but the last 2-3 years have been awful in regards to his positioning at the ice.

I was expecting Berube to coach that out of him, or at least heavily reduce him playing up there, but since it doesn't seem that way I feel dissappointed because I don't think this is a winning type of hockey.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Isn't this just a complete deflection?

Yes this player has issues, but.... look at all these other issues other players have.

Ok, but lets get back to the title thread. Does Marner have issues? According to your statement yes.

Also, there is a thing called relatively. In terms of relative playoff performance to expectation it's been Marner > Tavares > Matthews > Nylander.

Yes Marner has been better than Tavares, but we're also talking about a guy in his ultra prime vs 34 year old who declined much worse than other stars.

Yup. JT's been really bad as well but I think we're all agreed on that. Marner though, if the best defense of him people can come up with is to deflect to the team ... this is the guy who people think we should lock up for 8 years and give him a raise.

Isn't this just a complete deflection?
...
Also, there is a thing called relatively. In terms of relative playoff performance to expectation it's been Marner > Tavares > Matthews > Nylander.

100% accurate IMO. Deflecting criticism of Marner to the team is such a tired old routine.

 

[LeafSteel]

He’s not even the 2nd best player on that line anymore.

Knies has been much more active and impactful than Marner thus far.

It’s unfortunate that Dubas left us so pathetically thin at Centre that we have to force Domi at centre.

Domi showed much better chemistry and Matthews played better with him than Marner.

Every season Marner starts stapled to Matthews, and every season Matthews explodes offensively after Marner is finally removed from his wing.

Thats when all the cutesy putesy overs passing shit finally stops and Matthews plays like he can.

 

[Confucius]

Well 5 games gone and Marner still logs more icetime than any other forward, and even amongst the dmen, only OEL logs more.
Berube’s go to man no doubt.

 

[thewave]

They will see me address elimination games like I did here, and here, and here, etc., as well as the other majority of games that you like ignoring. They will also see the strong reasoning when it comes to comparables and fair compensation, like I've been discussing in this very thread, as well as the 100+ times I've explained it over the last half decade. I welcome anybody to read and learn about hockey.

There are no posts at those links. Basically go fish and hunt for likely a random comment that will not satisfy.

On the last one you mentioned St Louis.