Player Discussion Marner

[Gary Nylund]

Marner is a superstar. Marner with Tavares is as good as Nylander is with Matthews. Think about that.
Nylander is horrible with Tavares and only produces with Matthews.

Nylander has spent most of his career not playing with Matthews so this makes no sense.

I'm with ACC on this one. One of the things that we've criticized Marner on over the years is that he's too predictable, goalies can cheat because they know he's going to pass rather than rip one over their shoulder.

His shot isn't going to beat a goalie clean from the top of the faceoff circle, muffin is a fair enough adjective but he is an NHL'er who can pick his spots and is a ~30 goal player (been over 15% shooter the last three years). In the playoffs he'll usually just fling it at the net to get it off his stick before someone pressures him, but I do think he made good decisions to shoot on most of his shots last night. I remember one moment, perhaps in the first, where he was coming off the wing and rather than try a low percentage pass to Knies, who was coming in late and far away, he just ripped it high short side from the bottom of the faceoff circle. Montembault was clearly surprised by it, but was in position and made a good save with the shoulder, and it was actually one of our better chances on the evening. IMO, shooting there was the "correct" decision to make with the puck, and is the sort of play where we're used to Marner trying to make the fancy pass. I recall being genuinely surprised and quite pleased that he'd chosen to shoot. As always, credit where it's due.

I'm all for Marner making good decisions, I was just making the point that Marner getting shots on net shouldn't be a goal in itself.

I should also add that I have rarely (perhaps even never) been critical of anything Marner does during the regular season, and I'm not criticizing him now. My only issue with him is how he seems to get smaller and smaller in the playoffs as the games get bigger and bigger. Ideally someone with his cap hit should be someone we can count on to lead the way in the biggest games, simple as that and I'm not the least bit worried about how he plays from October to March.

who is saying - Team Marner or possible/likely members of his family
what they are saying - that it would be nice to see Mitch Marner get the puck on net more often

Like I said above, Marner getting shots on net shouldn't be a goal in itself.

 

[666]

Nylander has spent most of his career not playing with Matthews so this makes no sense.

Can you read the chart? 889 minutes playing with someone over 3 years is pretty significant and certainly valid for measurement.

 

[GoonieFace]

$11M players need to be able to figure it out. If Nylander can only produce with Matthews (everyone produces with Matthews) then he shouldn't be in the top 6 making $11.5M.

Up until now, Nylander was a $7million/year player and producing quite well

 

[666]

Up until now, Nylander was a $7million/year player and producing quite well

If you're saying that Nylander is worth about $7M then I agree with you.

 

[leafs in five]

Like I said above, Marner getting shots on net shouldn't be a goal in itself.

right, you did, ACC said Marner "needs to get the puck on net more often" and instead of replying no that's not right, that's not going help the team because weak shot perimiter player etc, you replied that this opinion is something that only those who prioritize a player's stats over his teams success could hold, maybe because he is a member of that player's Team or family. as if there is no possibility that someone could think it would benefit the team to get more pucks on net, no it's clearly misplaced priorities, cheering for player over team.

this is the routine, ok? is what I am saying. asking about.

 

[saffronleaf]

At least he didn't cry

 

[Gary Nylund]

Can you read the chart? 889 minutes playing with someone over 3 years is pretty significant and certainly valid for measurement.

889 minutes over 3 years isn't really that much, it's approximately one minute per period.

Like I said, Marner's the one who's always playing with Matthews so if anyone needs to prove he can produce without Matthews it's him. And considering how Matthews produced at a higher rate with Domi in place of Marner suggests that if you want to question whether one of our high priced forwards is worth his cap hit, you should be looking at Marner.

 

[rutz]

I agree, a contract should be given out for more than just a single year.

View attachment 914515

View attachment 914516View attachment 914520

This is the last 3 years.

This excludes the defensive side of the puck (one was a Selke finalist in this time).

Championship teams like Tampa and Vegas are not afraid of getting rid of star players to make the team better. Leafs on the other hand continue to overpay to keep their star players who can't figure out how to win a game 7 if their lives depended on it. I predict Marner gets resigned way more than a winger is worth and JT even though less than his current $11 million will still be resigned and overpaid.Leafs do not play big boy playoff hockey.

 

[GoonieFace]

If you're saying that Nylander is worth about $7M then I agree with you.

No I’m saying he was producing over his pay grade. Now he’s making $11 mil so the expectations increase with that. In short, if I’m in a playoff game and can only dress 1 of Marner or Nylander, I’m picking Willy everyday

 

[Gary Nylund]

right, you did, ACC said Marner "needs to get the puck on net more often" and instead of replying no that's not right, that's not going help the team because weak shot perimiter player etc, you replied that this opinion is something that only those who prioritize a player's stats over his teams success could hold, maybe because he is a member of that player's Team or family. as if there is no possibility that someone could think it would benefit the team to get more pucks on net, no it's clearly misplaced priorities, cheering for player over team.

this is the routine, ok? is what I am saying. asking about.

I'm familiar with ACC's routine and if you're aware that he's one of Marner's biggest fanboys posting here, then my response should make complete sense. It's sweet of you to stick up for him though.

 

[IPS]

So if Nylander only produces with Matthews how the hell did he get the production he did the last 2 years obviously not being Matthews main linemate?

Lots of hypocrisy going on here.

 

[666]

889 minutes over 3 years isn't really that much, it's approximately one minute per period.

Like I said, Marner's the one who's always playing with Matthews so if anyone needs to prove he can produce without Matthews it's him. And considering how Matthews produced at a higher rate with Domi in place of Marner suggests that if you want to question whether one of our high priced forwards is worth his cap hit, you should be looking at Marner.

Jebus again. It's 889 minutes of 5v5 or the equivalent of 60+ games together. Why do you think that Marner with Tavares produces about the same as Nylander with Matthews? And bringing up Domi means you have no clue about sample sizes. Matthews and Domi played about the equivalent of 15 games 5v5 together. In the past Matthews has gone 7 or 8 games without scoring so surely you can see how foolish using a 15 game sample is.

But the funny thing is that 889 minutes of Nylander with Matthews isn't enough but 200 minutes of Domi with Matthews is enough for you. This shows a clear irrational bias. This is an example of using emotion over critical thinking. The fact that a few people around here are using mis-information to suggest that Marner sucks even in the regular season is hilarious.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

At least he didn't cry

He whipped his bag of skittles to the ground though. Cameras just didn't pick it up last night.

 

[666]

So if Nylander only produces with Matthews how the hell did he get the production he did the last 2 years obviously not being Matthews main linemate?

Lots of hypocrisy going on here.

Here again are the numbers:

5v5 over the last 3 seasons to get the sample size acceptable:

Player 1	Player 2	Player 3	Player 4	GP	TOI	GF	GA	+/-	GF/60	GA/60	GF%
Auston Matthews	Mitchell Marner	w/o William Nylander	w/o John Tavares	205	1808	120	74	46	3.98	2.46	61.86
w/o Auston Matthews	Mitchell Marner	w/o William Nylander	John Tavares	215	889	45	29	16	3.04	1.96	60.81
Auston Matthews	w/o Mitchell Marner	William Nylander	w/o John Tavares	227	829	50	33	17	3.62	2.39	60.24
w/o Auston Matthews	w/o Mitchell Marner	William Nylander	John Tavares	237	1559	72	83	-11	2.77	3.19	46.45

Matthews is a superstar and does well with everyone.
Marner is a superstar. Marner with Tavares is as good as Nylander is with Matthews. Think about that.
Nylander plays about half as much with Matthews as he does with Tavares.
Nylander is horrible with Tavares and only produces with Matthews

 

[notbias]

Championship teams like Tampa and Vegas are not afraid of getting rid of star players to make the team better. Leafs on the other hand continue to overpay to keep their star players who can't figure out how to win a game 7 if their lives depended on it. I predict Marner gets resigned way more than a winger is worth and JT even though less than his current $11 million will still be resigned and overpaid.Leafs do not play big boy playoff hockey.

Which star did Tampa get rid of?

I don't care if they move away from people, if they do, I hope it improves the team.

Vegas didn't have to dish any of their star players, they hid one on LTIR until the playoffs.

 

[IPS]

Here again are the numbers:

5v5 over the last 3 seasons to get the sample size acceptable:

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Player 1[/TD]
[TD]Player 2[/TD]
[TD]Player 3[/TD]
[TD]Player 4[/TD]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]TOI[/TD]
[TD]GF[/TD]
[TD]GA[/TD]
[TD]+/-[/TD]
[TD]GF/60[/TD]
[TD]GA/60[/TD]
[TD]GF%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Auston Matthews[/TD]
[TD]Mitchell Marner[/TD]
[TD]w/o William Nylander[/TD]
[TD]w/o John Tavares[/TD]
[TD]205[/TD]
[TD]1808[/TD]
[TD]120[/TD]
[TD]74[/TD]
[TD]46[/TD]
[TD]3.98[/TD]
[TD]2.46[/TD]
[TD]61.86[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]w/o Auston Matthews[/TD]
[TD]Mitchell Marner[/TD]
[TD]w/o William Nylander[/TD]
[TD]John Tavares[/TD]
[TD]215[/TD]
[TD]889[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]3.04[/TD]
[TD]1.96[/TD]
[TD]60.81[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Auston Matthews[/TD]
[TD]w/o Mitchell Marner[/TD]
[TD]William Nylander[/TD]
[TD]w/o John Tavares[/TD]
[TD]227[/TD]
[TD]829[/TD]
[TD]50[/TD]
[TD]33[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]3.62[/TD]
[TD]2.39[/TD]
[TD]60.24[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]w/o Auston Matthews[/TD]
[TD]w/o Mitchell Marner[/TD]
[TD]William Nylander[/TD]
[TD]John Tavares[/TD]
[TD]237[/TD]
[TD]1559[/TD]
[TD]72[/TD]
[TD]83[/TD]
[TD]-11[/TD]
[TD]2.77[/TD]
[TD]3.19[/TD]
[TD]46.45[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Matthews is a superstar and does well with everyone.
Marner is a superstar. Marner with Tavares is as good as Nylander is with Matthews. Think about that.
Nylander plays about half as much with Matthews as he does with Tavares.
Nylander is horrible with Tavares and only produces with Matthews

So Nylander's 98 point season is only thanks to the short stints he played with Matthews? You're losing the plot here pal.

 

[Gary Nylund]

No I’m saying he was producing over his pay grade. Now he’s making $11 mil so the expectations increase with that. In short, if I’m in a playoff game and can only dress 1 of Marner or Nylander, I’m picking Willy everyday

Agree with all this. Marner's going to get another chance to show he can play like an $11m player in the playoffs next spring but until he does just that, Nylander is the easy choice.

Only 81 more games before the real season starts, I just hope my favorite beer makes it back on the LCBO shelves at some point so I can stock up.

Jebus again. It's 889 minutes of 5v5 or the equivalent of 60+ games together. Why do you think that Marner with Tavares produces about the same as Nylander with Matthews? And bringing up Domi means you have no clue about sample sizes. Matthews and Domi played about the equivalent of 15 games 5v5 together. In the past Matthews has gone 7 or 8 games without scoring so surely you can see how foolish using a 15 game sample is.

But the funny thing is that 889 minutes of Nylander with Matthews isn't enough but 200 minutes of Domi with Matthews is enough for you. This shows a clear irrational bias. This is an example of using emotion over critical thinking. The fact that a few people around here are using mis-information to suggest that Marner sucks even in the regular season is hilarious.

Jebus again? Who even talks like this? Not sure why you're quoting me and talking about Marner sucking in the regular season, that's something I've never said.

Seems like you're the one who's biased and emotional, I'll leave you to it.

 

[666]

So Nylander's 98 point season is only thanks to the short stints he played with Matthews? You're losing the plot here pal.

Nylanders gets a lot of points particularly on the power play (35 points) where he plays with Marner but much more importantly while he gets his points the other team is scoring against him at pretty well the same rate so it's a wash. Do you not see how many goals against he is on for? Do you not see how he's a defensive liability? 98 points on a top team and he's on the ice for the same amount of goals against that he's on for.

 

[Gary Nylund]

What I mean is that their games suit each other. Marner and Tavares as a duo should work. Nylander does not fit style wise with Tavares, and would more so with Matthews.

IIRC this has been discussed here at length, and ~99% of people agree that JT/Nylander simply do not fit style wise whereas JT/Marner fit much better. Hard to tell if someone doesn't get this or if they're just pretending not to get it but whatever.

I'd really like to see Marner back together with JT and Domi back with Matthews, hopefully Berube gets there some day as well. M&M back together is probably the thing that disappoints me the most about our roster to start the season.

 

[666]

Jebus again? Who even talks like this? Not sure why you're quoting me and talking about Marner sucking in the regular season, that's something I've never said.

Seems like you're the one who's biased and emotional, I'll leave you to it.

I accept your admission that you were wrong about Marner only producing with Matthews and finally seeing that Nylander is in fact the one that needs Matthews.

 

[leafs in five]

At least he didn't cry

not only that but he followed the advice of the cooler teammate who embarrassed him last playoffs on the bench to the delight of Mitch Marner thread regulars (shoot the puck)

 

[IPS]

Nylanders gets a lot of points particularly on the power play (35 points) where he plays with Marner but much more importantly while he gets his points the other team is scoring against him at pretty well the same rate so it's a wash. Do you not see how many goals against he is on for? Do you not see how he's a defensive liability? 98 points on a top team and he's on the ice for the same amount of goals against that he's on for.

A winger's defensive game is not the make or break for a team's defense. They have the least defensive responsibility by far. And maybe he produces that much on the PP cause he's actually good at it? What were we in the postseason, 1/23 or something? Sounds like more PP production is what's needed.

Really sounds like you're going all in on this agenda though so I won't get in your way.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I accept your admission that you were wrong about Marner only producing with Matthews and finally seeing that Nylander is in fact the one that needs Matthews.

If this is what you think I said, then you're having severe reading comprehension issues.

 

[IPS]

When's the last time Marner was a regular linemate of JT's anyway?

JT"s game has sunk quite a bit these last couple years, he's getting slower and slower. So if Marner's sample size was more in the time when JT was a better player - then it's naturally going to look a bit better. On top of all of that too I do think Marner has better chemistry with JT. Marner's better at playing a slower more east-west game and it meshes good with JT.

There's a lot of points here that are being blatantly ommitted, and it's not resulting in any sort of honest discussion.

 

[Gary Nylund]

A winger's defensive game is not the make or break for a team's defense. They have the least defensive responsibility by far. And maybe he produces that much on the PP cause he's actually good at it? What were we in the postseason, 1/23 or something? Sounds like more PP production is what's needed.

Really sounds like you're going all in on this agenda though so I won't get in your way.

100% this. Last season, Matthews got 512 Selke votes and Marner got 23. I'll bet that came as a shock to a few people here but that's what happened.

To be clear, that's not at all a knock on Marner, IMO he's a very good defensive player. But talk of him winning a Selke, that's just people getting carried away for no good reason. JMHO.