Value of: Marner

[sensfan4lifee]

Hahahaha

No, the goaltending and team structure has been fine. What hasn't been fine is that Marner and the rest of the core 4 have scored at less than 0.5PPG clip after G3 of the 1st round. Marner blows his load in the first games, so he's technically close to PPG career wise. Yet has all but disappeared when the most important games come up.

Team structure has been horrible for the leafs

Bro has never watched Marner play a single playoff game lmfao

I've actually watched lots of Leafs games, and I disagree the Leafs do not have a good defense Keefe had them playing a very good team defense but I disagree there defense has been fine, they literally have not had the players on the back end who can move the puck up the ice to transition from offence to defense, all cup winners have had guys who can pass or carry the puck in the rush. The leafs do not have that kind of player. Also when you're plan is to build a skill hockey team like Dubas was trying to do he plugged in the wrong types of players to support the big 4. Marner wont go into corners? Ok put someone on his line that will dig the puck out to get into Marner or Mathews, I don't think Marner is the problem with the Leafs I think the problem is Leaf fans wanting Marner to be something he's not, he's a skilled winger who plays selke caliber defense you just don't trade players like that, you add players to the team that cover for that players weakness.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

The big 4 is not the problem, the problem is poor team structure, the Leafs under dubas were being build as an offensive team, yet only really had one D-Man who could move the puck. The Leafs d has always been some what Solid but it doesn't support the forwards with transition in my opinion. Also I'd argue that the reason the big "4" have always been shut down is lack of depth, they can be focused by other teams because they know beyond the big 4 the leafs have no depth, this is where Guys like Cowan, Knies and Robertson and Minten should come into Play, cheap young talent you can plug in to support the Core,

Why don't the leafs have depth? Would it have something to do with having 50+% of the cap being tied up in the core 4, and have them come up small come play off time?

Is that just the core 4s problem? IMO no, because the team is fundamentally flawed. That said, doubling down with a Core 3 (no JT) making 37m is insanity.

 

[sensfan4lifee]

Why don't the leafs have depth? Would it have something to do with having 50+% of the cap being tied up in the core 4, and have them come up small come play off time?

Is that just the core 4s problem? IMO no, because the team is fundamentally flawed. That said, doubling down with a Core 3 (no JT) making 37m is insanity.

Not really with the cap going up and they have Cowan, Minten, Knies coming up, they can add some offence when Tavares is gone, I think the Leafs problem is outside of the Core 3, and Reilly, they haven't really developed or made any decent trades to improve the team.

Not really with the cap going up and they have Cowan, Minten, Knies coming up, they can add some offence when Tavares is gone, I think the Leafs problem is outside of the Core 3, and Reilly, they haven't really developed or made any decent trades to improve the team.

Knies already on the roster, I think the issue is the Toronto hockey media is just a bunch of idiots who don't know shit, and the fans buy into the false narrative they have created instead of focusing on the real issue IE players development//pro scouting and providing the right supporting cast around those players. Leafs management just lacks the creativity for the cap era, look at Florida, Tampa, Vegas, Chicago, they've all found ways to be contenders in some way or another.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

I've actually watched lots of Leafs games, and I disagree the Leafs do not have a good defense Keefe had them playing a very good team defense but I disagree there defense has been fine, they literally have not had the players on the back end who can move the puck up the ice to transition from offence to defense, all cup winners have had guys who can pass or carry the puck in the rush. The leafs do not have that kind of player. Also when you're plan is to build a skill hockey team like Dubas was trying to do he plugged in the wrong types of players to support the big 4. Marner wont go into corners? Ok put someone on his line that will dig the puck out to get into Marner or Mathews, I don't think Marner is the problem with the Leafs I think the problem is Leaf fans wanting Marner to be something he's not, he's a skilled winger who plays selke caliber defense you just don't trade players like that, you add players to the team that cover for that players weakness.

There is no justifying a player making $11.7M being afraid of the corners and physical contact, sorry

He doesn’t have to be a tough player but that is inexcusable

 

[TS Quint]

The big 4 is not the problem, the problem is poor team structure, the Leafs under dubas were being build as an offensive team, yet only really had one D-Man who could move the puck. The Leafs d has always been some what Solid but it doesn't support the forwards with transition in my opinion. Also I'd argue that the reason the big "4" have always been shut down is lack of depth, they can be focused by other teams because they know beyond the big 4 the leafs have no depth, this is where Guys like Cowan, Knies and Robertson and Minten should come into Play, cheap young talent you can plug in to support the Core,

You don’t get to blame the depth when you are making 8 digits. Those players are literally the cause of the poor depth because they made the argument to management to management that they are more valuable than depth and management agreed. But the consistently underperform when things get too hard for them. They are not the same players that they are in the regular season. That’s the problem. You have a so called generational goal scorer who makes a sliver less than McDavid who doesn’t score when his needs him.

McDrai earned their depth eating contracts in the playoffs. It can be done. I think the problem is the two albatrosses the Leafs have at center don’t make anyone better. They need others to make them better.

 

[BLONG7]

Why don't the leafs have depth? Would it have something to do with having 50+% of the cap being tied up in the core 4, and have them come up small come play off time?

Is that just the core 4s problem? IMO no, because the team is fundamentally flawed. That said, doubling down with a Core 3 (no JT) making 37m is insanity.

Dubas had no idea what he was doing, and the agents took advantage....
The cap has been so mis-used rinse and repeat, year after year.
Plugging holes in your lineup rarely works.

 

[The Hockey Tonk Man]

Dubas had no idea what he was doing, and the agents took advantage....
The cap has been so mis-used rinse and repeat, year after year.
Plugging holes in your lineup rarely works.

He also kinda got screwed with a flat cap for a few seasons with covid/etc
Not saying it would make a difference, but who knows.

Marners a fine player, just slightly overpaid. But that’s not his fault.
I’m sure if he moves onto another team, he’ll find playoff success

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Not really with the cap going up and they have Cowan, Minten, Knies coming up, they can add some offence when Tavares is gone, I think the Leafs problem is outside of the Core 3, and Reilly, they haven't really developed or made any decent trades to improve the team.

Knies already on the roster, I think the issue is the Toronto hockey media is just a bunch of idiots who don't know shit, and the fans buy into the false narrative they have created instead of focusing on the real issue IE players development//pro scouting and providing the right supporting cast around those players. Leafs management just lacks the creativity for the cap era, look at Florida, Tampa, Vegas, Chicago, they've all found ways to be contenders in some way or another.

I think you are letting the Core 4 off the hook. At the end of the day - if you're a team's best player you have to raise your game when it matter most. Over their last 15 PO games they scored more than 2 goals ONCE, and their PP was an EPIC failure. You can't blame that on the "depth". The comparison to the Oilers above is perfect IMO with McDrai engaging beast mode come play-off time and more than justifying their salary. You can't have a $10+M cap hit and have your production fall by 30% (and goal production fall by 50+% in MM's case).

Steve Dangle did a pretty interesting breakdown of the TML salary moving forward. If JT takes a retirement type deal like Tanev (something like TB offered Stamkos with a $4M-ish cap hit), the $7M that frees up is going to have to go to Knies (who needs a new contract), and Woll (already signed a deal with a $3M raise) - so those $'s are effectively spent. Add in that McCabe's retention by the Hawks ends this year, so he's going to be needing a significant raise as well. And if Tavares isn't resigned - you're not going to get a legit 2nd line center for $4M on the UFA market. While Cowan/Minten are good prospects, it's foolish to count on them to immediately contribute at the NHL level.

With regard to the talent pipeline - the thing I think that you're not taking into account is that the TML have been "contenders" for the last 7 years, and pretty much every year did an "own rental" (Hyman, JVR, etc.) or moved prospects/draft capital for upgrades (ROR, Foligno, McCabe etc.) or to get out of bad contracts (Marleau, Mrazek, Zaitsev, etc.). When you consistently are active at the TD, that costs you in the regard that the talent pipeline is "shrunk" for immediate help, most of which is not long term.

 

[StewieP19]

The way I

From my POV, you accept that you cannot win a Marner trade. That said, IMO the Leafs are better off losing a trade but getting some value instead of either losing him for nothing, or resigning him long term for $12m per year. That is of course assume there is any deal to be had with MMs NMC. If there isn't, that's sunk cost but it's on Shanny for not having Tre trade him last offseason before his NMC kicked in.

The way I see it it simple Marner is a great player in season and in playoff he doesn't get his game to a higher level. So in a trade normally Marner will be the better player but Toronto can trade him to bring a player who can get his level up when playoff start.

 

[TageGod]

Can you swap expiring players? Toronto wont sell him, and they wont take futures. Not sure what this looks like from a Buffalo trade angle. Wouldn't mind acquiring Marner but he won't resign here unless team has success, even then maybe not.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The big 4 is not the problem, the problem is poor team structure, the Leafs under dubas were being build as an offensive team, yet only really had one D-Man who could move the puck. The Leafs d has always been some what Solid but it doesn't support the forwards with transition in my opinion. Also I'd argue that the reason the big "4" have always been shut down is lack of depth, they can be focused by other teams because they know beyond the big 4 the leafs have no depth, this is where Guys like Cowan, Knies and Robertson and Minten should come into Play, cheap young talent you can plug in to support the Core,

Lack of depth is due to the big 4 contracts.

 

[NYVanfan]

Trade idea, what about for Pietro and Holtz, maybe money to balance … who sez no?

 

[John Mandalorian]

He also kinda got screwed with a flat cap for a few seasons with covid/etc
Not saying it would make a difference, but who knows.

Marners a fine player, just slightly overpaid. But that’s not his fault.
I’m sure if he moves onto another team, he’ll find playoff success

Not slightly.

 

[sensfan4lifee]

Not slightly.

H'es a 90 point selke caliber winger

OMG He wont go into the corners :O

he's worth every bit of what he makes

Its not his fault the Leafs have inept management and lack any ounce of creativity

 

[John Mandalorian]

H'es a 90 point selke caliber winger

OMG He wont go into the corners :O

he's worth every bit of what he makes

Its not his fault the Leafs have inept management and lack any ounce of creativity

Based on Rantanen, Marner should have been at 8.3-8.5 per year. Maybe even less. 10.9 should be in the ballpark of his next deal not his current one. Even 10.9 might be steep.

 

[Lt Dan]

Based on Rantanen, Marner should have been at 8.3-8.5 per year. Maybe even less. 10.9 should be in the ballpark of his next deal not his current one. Even 10.9 might be steep.

This is the way

 

[Golden_Jet]

H'es a 90 point selke caliber winger

OMG He wont go into the corners :O

he's worth every bit of what he makes

Its not his fault the Leafs have inept management and lack any ounce of creativity

Ya most agree he was overpaid, and will be again. (If leafs sign him).

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

H'es a 90 point selke caliber winger

OMG He wont go into the corners :O

he's worth every bit of what he makes

Its not his fault the Leafs have inept management and lack any ounce of creativity

Patently false. The other wingers in his price range (Panarin, Pasternak) both drive the play.

Don't get me wrong - MM is a great player. But if you're making what he is, you need to be able to elevate your game in the P/O's, and "carry" a line. IMO - the Leaf's can't afford to pay AM/MM $24M between the two of them. If you're making that kind of bank - you need to be the driving force on your line.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Ya most agree he was overpaid, and will be again. (If leafs sign him).

It’s hard to imagine the Leafs signing him. They’ve been overpaying him by about 2.5 M per year. Yes that’s a sunk cost. But that doesn’t mean the Leafs have to double down on the same mistake while knowing it’s a mistake.

When you step back and look at value, Pastrnak makes 11.3? Rantanen will likely make more than Pastrnak. Both are superior players. Then you get into the elite centers. Marner shouldn’t be anywhere close to MacKinnon salary wise, especially with Matthews making more than MacKinnon. This is a good way to put yourself at a disadvantage.

Give Toronto credit for hitting on all three picks (Matthews, Marner, and Nylander). And yes, Marner is a good player. But he’s nowhere close to the elite players and Toronto slashes it’s own throat if they pay him like he’s almost as good.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

So hows that Top prospect + First + Roster player ask working out for y'all

 

[abj]

What is the value of Marner? What would people pay for just 1 year or an extended Marner?

He is Toronto.

So $13 million.

 

[Fatass]

He is Toronto.

So $13 million.

If MM would accept a trade (and be extended by the new club) he’d be worth a lot in trade.

 

[ACC1224]

So hows that Top prospect + First + Roster player ask working out for y'all

What ask?