Marner haters right now

[Gary Nylund]

Marner's front kick to his Detractors' face = rubber.

I hope I get to see him do this for us in the playoffs some day. Regular season success loses all it's luster when it's followed by playoff failure.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Marner haters are in and out of the woodwork so much they've got a full size tunnel bored out by now

Hater is such an overused term around here. You could just as easily say that any time anyone dares to say one word about Marner's lack of production in the playoffs over the last few years, the Marner lovers come out of the woodwork with their pitchforks.

Don't worry, hockey is a "what have you done for me lately" thing and all Marner needs is one spring where he plays well, produces and helps us go deep and the last few playoff failures will be forgotten. Maybe this will be the year.

 

[Racer88]

The fact Marner is playing like this only highlights why people are so disappointed with him in the playoffs. For some reason, since his contract, he looks lost and disinterested in the most recent playoffs. Play like he has been the last few weeks and no one will have a problem.

Bingo……we have a winner. This is something the Marner can do no wrong fan boys don’t get

 

[horner]

The fact Marner is playing like this only highlights why people are so disappointed with him in the playoffs. For some reason, since his contract, he looks lost and disinterested in the most recent playoffs. Play like he has been the last few weeks and no one will have a problem.

All our players need to play better not just Marner.

 

[horner]

Hater is such an overused term around here. You could just as easily say that any time anyone dares to say one word about Marner's lack of production in the playoffs over the last few years, the Marner lovers come out of the woodwork with their pitchforks.

Don't worry, hockey is a "what have you done for me lately" thing and all Marner needs is one spring where he plays well, produces and helps us go deep and the last few playoff failures will be forgotten. Maybe this will be the year.

I think we all agree that marner has to bring another level in the playoffs .
The same with mathews and the rest of our players.
The only issue I have when people say marner can't score.
Here is his last 3 regular seasons .

82 gp 26 g
59 gp 16 g = 82 gp 22 g
55 gp 20 g = 82 gp 29 g

Mathews has scored 3 goals in the last two playoff series.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I think we all agree that marner has to bring another level in the playoffs .
The same with mathews and the rest of our players.
The only issue I have when people say marner can't score.
Here is his last 3 regular seasons .

I think it's been a while since he's scored in the playoffs. Agree with the rest of this. It's a team game, if the team wins then nobody cares about the individuals who were sub par. When the team loses though, it's only natural that people analyze and try to figure out where we need to improve.

I personally am not questioning his effort, he just seemed a little bit off those last few games against MTL. And that penalty, man I don't know if I will ever be able to forget that. For a player who's supposed be off the charts smart, that really stood out as it was an incredibly dumb penalty at the worst possible time.

 

[horner]

I think it's been a while since he's scored in the playoffs. Agree with the rest of this. It's a team game, if the team wins then nobody cares about the individuals who were sub par. When the team loses though, it's only natural that people analyze and try to figure out where we need to improve.

I personally am not questioning his effort, he just seemed a little bit off those last few games against MTL. And that penalty, man I don't know if I will ever be able to forget that. For a player who's supposed be off the charts smart, that really stood out as it was an incredibly dumb penalty at the worst possible time.

Rocket man mathews has scored 3 goals in the last 2 playoff series.

 

[horner]

I think it's been a while since he's scored in the playoffs. Agree with the rest of this. It's a team game, if the team wins then nobody cares about the individuals who were sub par. When the team loses though, it's only natural that people analyze and try to figure out where we need to improve.

I personally am not questioning his effort, he just seemed a little bit off those last few games against MTL. And that penalty, man I don't know if I will ever be able to forget that. For a player who's supposed be off the charts smart, that really stood out as it was an incredibly dumb penalty at the worst possible time.

I agree he was off his game last year , I love marner but I was passed to.

 

[HarryLime]

What are you even talking about? even when marner was slumping, it's the playoffs that matter. this regular season means nothing, besides making it into the playoffs. I've been quoted as saying he could score 50 points or 120 points this season and it wouldn't matter to me. He has proved he can put up points in the season and when the style of play changes in the playoffs he looks like a pee wee kid playing with his dad's crew.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Rocket man mathews has scored 3 goals in the last 2 playoff series.

This is a Marner thread so don't really want to derail. I agree that it's on all our stars to produce, that said I think Matthews played better than Marner last playoffs. That's JMHO though, no point in debating that here.

What are you even talking about? even when marner was slumping, it's the playoffs that matter. this regular season means nothing, besides making it into the playoffs. I've been quoted as saying he could score 50 points or 120 points this season and it wouldn't matter to me. He has proved he can put up points in the season and when the style of play changes in the playoffs he looks like a pee wee kid playing with his dad's crew.

Yeah I've said this as well - he's gonna get his points during the season, we all know that but whether he ends up with 70 or 120 doesn't matter to me. Help us win in the playoffs, that's all I care about and before all of Paul's minions pounce on me, I will say that I'm not picking on Marner at all, the same goes for every single player on the team.

 

[ToneDog]

Rocket man mathews has scored 3 goals in the last 2 playoff series.

I'd leave Rocket man out of this. Everybody knows teams focus on rocket man because odds are their goalie can stop the muffin man.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

It's not about being right it's about winning at extreme costs that will give you a hernia in 6 years.

 

[Brad C]

His trade value is up
Trade him for 6mil player and spend the rest balancing the lineup.

 

[theTTC]

Just to be clear. The long-suffering mature posters here don't hate any person. We really do know these players are just decent young men trying to earn a living doing their passion. It is only the lack of paycheque-earning effort and, occasionally, their attitude towards the fans that we "hate", and this is communicated in the critical postings.

The only personal hate I ever see is from the, I presume, younger fans who still can't discern this difference.

So please, don't paint everyone with the "you guys hate..." brush.

 

[Shooter2x]

It's not about being right it's about winning at extreme costs that will give you a hernia in 6 years.

A lot of people don't understand this. Playoff hockey is not like the regular season and doesn't care about anything that starts with x. Playoff hockey is more like Rocky movies. Send the stat nerds home they're not needed any more. I don't care how much Marner should have scored, I care about how much he scored. Which is zero. Literally zero.

I'm used to winning in the regular season so this 5 game winning streak isn't going to make me forget about our real issues. This thread only exists because everyone gave up. Marner haters, lovers alike. Hilarious watching Marner lovers pretend they didn't give up too and hilarious watching everyone think Leafs were washed.

McDavid said it best. It's what they're paid to do. These two things are both embarrassing: Wanting to trade Marner and calling him trash because he had a rough start to the season and also a thread rubbing it in peoples faces that he's putting up points. That's supposed to be his baseline. Make a thread for him like this when we finally win a round.

 

[666]

Hater is such an overused term around here. You could just as easily say that any time anyone dares to say one word about Marner's lack of production in the playoffs over the last few years, the Marner lovers come out of the woodwork with their pitchforks.

Don't worry, hockey is a "what have you done for me lately" thing and all Marner needs is one spring where he plays well, produces and helps us go deep and the last few playoff failures will be forgotten. Maybe this will be the year.

Dude, you've been saying that you'll only be happy with Marner once he performs in the playoffs. It doesn't work that way. You are in the Marner hate group and you have declared all summer long that he needs to be traded. I respect that opinion but you don't get to have your cake and eat it too. Marner is a superstar playoffs or not. You will always be in the Marner hater group.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Dude, you've been saying that you'll only be happy with Marner once he performs in the playoffs. It doesn't work that way. You are in the Marner hate group and you have declared all summer long that he needs to be traded. I respect that opinion but you don't get to have your cake and eat it too. Marner is a superstar playoffs or not. You will always be in the Marner hater group.

Ok put me in that group too if lack of playoff success makes me a 'hater' at 11 mill

 

[horner]

I'd leave Rocket man out of this. Everybody knows teams focus on rocket man because odds are their goalie can stop the muffin man.

Good excuse

 

[Zybalto]

This is all useless in playoffs if you have no results.

This is more useful for regular season. The sample is big enough (82) that eventually the advanced stats are consistent with the standings.

Playoffs you just need to win 4 games first.

So here's a very simple model. Leafs playoff advanced stats suggest that in 50 games they'll probably win a minimum of 30. Habs advanced stats suggest they won't be so lucky. In 50 games they'll probably win a minimum of 20. Again very simplified example.

So Leafs have 30 wins as currency , Habs have 20. Each team has enough currency to produce 4 wins. Leafs to this point don't have what it takes to get those 4 wins first and that's the stuff the advanced stats can't measure.

Champions will fight and get those 4 wins even if they're the under dog. It doesn't matter that they probably wouldn't sustain it over a whole season. It's the playoffs you only need to break things down into 7 game segments and get your 4 wins first.

There's no math on the planet that can measure "clutch " . You either have it or you don't.

What I do like about the advanced stats is they suggest if Leafs can get past the first round hurdle, the run will be deep because as the sample of games increase the advanced stats do prevail.

I think Leafs will put it together soon (marner thread so I'll single out Marner as not being clutch), but so far they lack what it takes to be champions. Takes more than skill.

I agree theres no specific math that can measure clutch for players skating out there as the big elephant in the room is that the play of the goalies on both sides is going to be determining factor on whether or not those advanced stats are going to translate into reality......and the defining stat for clutch when it comes to goalies is the ability to make the big save when it matters. Guess which team had the goalie with the worst high danger save% in the playoffs last year?

Looking outside of raw points, when it comes to trying to measure the overall performance of individual players, the limited sample size makes it tough to figure things out but the most agreed upon stat that filters out the luck factors (PDO) and just lets you know how much a single player tilted the ice is "Score-Adjusted 5v5 Expected Goals differential". I would also argue that this number (which factors in both offensive and defensive play) should not be taken at face value as you have to also look at the REL numbers as well to make sure it wasn't just a great number because you were on a dominant team (and so this might apply to Marner here as the Leafs outplayed both the Jackets and Habs in their series).

Over the last two playoffs, Marner has thrown up a with a 66.29 xGF% with a +14.57 REL. Those numbers together are so stupidly elite that if you saw them in a vacuum, you would think it unfathomable that anyone could possibly believe he played poorly. The problem of course is with the finish and here we see Marner being blamed for poor finish, 90% of which are other players not being able to finish his elite set-ups....and the poor finish can be explained not just by the double digit posts hit by his teammates but also by the fact its universally agreed the opposing goalies were playing at an all-star level. I keep seeing things about him taking penalties as being one of the worst things in the world as well despite him taking a below-average number of penalties in the playoffs than other players and no team ever scoring with him in the box. It really looks like he's getting a raw deal (to put it mildly), mostly from people that think he personally had any hand in crafting his contract which he is damn close to earning with his play.

Again, a lot of factors went into the last two playoff disappointments but the extreme vitriol pointed against the player that statistically tilted the ice in the Leafs favor more than any other player (save maybe Matthews who is up there as well) is maddening. How about blaming the guys that actually gave games away or the goalies that couldnt make the big save or the fact the Leafs big 4 still out outproduced the rest of the lineup at around the same level as the regular season (which really does show how putrid the bottom of the lineup performed). Being the team with the worst injury luck sure didnt help either.

Take some notes from the Lightning last year. They didnt win because their stars stepped up in big games, they won because even when their stars weren't producing, they got big game-winning goals from the role players and big game-saving saves from their goalkeeper. 4 series wins and 4 shutouts to close them out despite "starting slow" and getting outplayed at the start of almost every single elimination game. Desperate teams are going to throw everything they have at you at the start of an elimination game and if your goalie cant make a big save (or even lets in game 7 softies every single time) its a far bigger reason for losing than accidentally throwing the puck over the glass or other such nonsense.

I too think they will get over the hump but this Marner stuff is just too much now.

 

[Twine Tickler]

Mitch is elite. He was proving that over these last 5 games.

The problem with Mitch is that he gets way too down on himself, and becomes the personification of woe is me. In those times, it is almost painful to watch him play. His game is 100% dependent on confidence. His confidence is 100% dependent on his own personal production. The problem with all of that is that production is inevitably going to fluctuate throughout an 82 game season. When the production is not there, it's not because he isn't playing well, or not trying hard enough. Sometimes the puck just doesn't go in. When that happens, it completely engulfs Mitch into a dumpster fire of negativity, and ultimately plummets his ability to play the game at the level he is capable of.

He's got to find a way to block out the noise. I am proud of him for turning his early season woes around in such a rapid timeframe. 1 week ago he had 1pt in 7GP. The fact that he has 12Pts now in 12GP is nothing short of remarkable TBH. Hopefully this is a stretch he can reference in the future when his mind wonders into the trash. The kid is very good in every aspect of the game. He's just gotta figure it out in between the ears.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Mitch is elite. He was proving that over these last 5 games.

The problem with Mitch is that he gets way too down on himself, and becomes the personification of woe is me. In those times, it is almost painful to watch him play. His game is 100% dependent on confidence. His confidence is 100% dependent on his own personal production. The problem with all of that is that production is inevitably going to fluctuate throughout an 82 game season. When the production is not there, it's not because he isn't playing well, or not trying hard enough. Sometimes the puck just doesn't go in. When that happens, it completely engulfs Mitch into a dumpster fire of negativity, and ultimately plummets his ability to play the game at the level he is capable of.

He's got to find a way to block out the noise. I am proud of him for turning his early season woes around in such a rapid timeframe. 1 week ago he had 1pt in 7GP. The fact that he has 12Pts now in 12GP is nothing short of remarkable TBH. Hopefully this is a stretch he can reference in the future when his mind wonders into the trash. The kid is very good in every aspect of the game. He's just gotta figure it out in between the ears.

Not sure how you know he gets down on himself. He surely has elite talent and vision, but one quality he lacks is physicality, znd in playoff tight games the puck is often closer to the boards. This is not his domain.
His timidness becomes obvious. He has to figure out what Keon learned, what P Kane learned, what Gretzky knew, what Dionne knew, what Henri Richard learned.
Certain linemates may help, and if he could learn how to shoot would help, because all the guys I just listed could score, which made teams back off.

 

[Twine Tickler]

Not sure how you know he gets down on himself. He surely has elite talent and vision, but one quality he lacks is physicality, znd in playoff tight games the puck is often closer to the boards. This is not his domain.
His timidness becomes obvious. He has to figure out what Keon learned, what P Kane learned, what Gretzky knew, what Dionne knew, what Henri Richard learned.
Certain linemates may help, and if he could learn how to shoot would help, because all the guys I just listed could score, which made teams back off.

I think it is a fair assumption Mitch gets down on himself in those times. He often says shit like "we need to stop feeling sorry for ourselves" and "I need to be better". Pretty confident he gets in his head in those times. Which is absolutely not a knock on him. It is a ton of pressure for a 24 year old.

As for him needing to be more physical. I don't know how you could say Mitch is any less physical than Kane and say Brayden Point. His timidness in the crucial moments has nothing to do with physicality IMO. It has everything to do with the time and space being that much less. He has less time to make those highlight real plays, and his line mates are experiencing the same degree of limited space. He tries to do too much when there isn't the space to do anything. He doesn't need to be any more physical, he just needs to simplify his game. The passing lanes are eliminated in playoffs. When you have the opportunity to put the puck on the net, you have to do so. Far too often in tight checking games Mitch tries threading a pass through a clogged lane and effectively neuters any scoring chance. Or he will try to make a play in neutral ice, that ends up going the other way off of a turnover.

Get the puck deep, and put the puck on net. No trying to make plays at their blue line, and no extra passes. Simple hockey. To say Marner is not good in and around the boards is false. He may never overpower you physically, but he protects the puck very well, and is really effective at causing turnovers. He is more than capable of playing this way.

Playing that way will inherently incorporate more physicality to his game because he will be forced to play in harder areas of the ice.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

As I drink coffee and read these diatribes I wonder what Tavares thinks about his linemates compared to Barzal and Okposo.

 

[therealkoho]

I’ll assume you’re not counting player for pick trades, because a lot of teams win those trades by drafting well.

Cam Neely wasn’t the best player in the trade that brought him to Boston. Peter Forsberg wasn’t the best player on the trade that brought him to Colorado.

the Forsberg thing is very arguable, which I'm not going to get into here as this is a Marner "redemption/crap all over him" thread

 

[Niagara Bill]

I think it is a fair assumption Mitch gets down on himself in those times. He often says shit like "we need to stop feeling sorry for ourselves" and "I need to be better". Pretty confident he gets in his head in those times. Which is absolutely not a knock on him. It is a ton of pressure for a 24 year old.

As for him needing to be more physical. I don't know how you could say Mitch is any less physical than Kane and say Brayden Point. His timidness in the crucial moments has nothing to do with physicality IMO. It has everything to do with the time and space being that much less. He has less time to make those highlight real plays, and his line mates are experiencing the same degree of limited space. He tries to do too much when there isn't the space to do anything. He doesn't need to be any more physical, he just needs to simplify his game. The passing lanes are eliminated in playoffs. When you have the opportunity to put the puck on the net, you have to do so. Far too often in tight checking games Mitch tries threading a pass through a clogged lane and effectively neuters any scoring chance. Or he will try to make a play in neutral ice, that ends up going the other way off of a turnover.

Get the puck deep, and put the puck on net. No trying to make plays at their blue line, and no extra passes. Simple hockey. To say Marner is not good in and around the boards is false. He may never overpower you physically, but he protects the puck very well, and is really effective at causing turnovers. He is more than capable of playing this way.

Playing that way will inherently incorporate more physicality to his game because he will be forced to play in harder areas of the ice.

Point is far more physical than MM. Kane, perhaps due to position plays at a faster speed than MM. At 24 both those guys were not intimidated and I can say MM is timid around the boards in tough games because I watch them. You have to be able to dump it in and get it. Putting a puck on net is not bad but since he cannot shoot and passing lanes are cluttered his game suffers.
Look, J see MM as potentially elite I see his timidness makes him dipsey and doodle too much because he dies not want to play at his full pace. That drives other teams d back and stop pinching. He will never play like a 200lber but he better understand that his fame changes in tight hickey. Elite players make other teams change, with MM, other teams don't need to change to defend him.