Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion Part IV

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I am Canadian

AM34|WN88|MM16
May 22, 2008
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He's going to get a higher number than anyone of us are comfortable with, just seems to be that way with our RFA's

We will see if that's the case in the NHL with Tkachuck, Rantanen, Aho
 

Mr Hockey

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May 11, 2017
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Reports on mainboard saying marner wants 12.5million . My reaction to marner thinking he is worthy anywhere near Mcdavid(**** the internal Matthews comp and see how far beneath he is than 97)

Matthews wanted 14 aav for 8 and now Marner wants 12.5 aav for 8, seems fair ... he will settle for 10.5 AAV for 5 years
 

hamzarocks

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Matthews wanted 14 aav for 8 and now Marner wants 12.5 aav for 8, seems fair ... he will settle for 10.5 aav for 5 years
Matthews should have been told to get real the moment he asked for that contract. He got a horrendous deal in every aspect ( term, cap hit, signing bonuses, NMC in his last year). Dubas should learn from his mistakes. Cut ties with these group of players. We havent won a single round and they are trying to out compete eachother for worst deal of any star player in the league. Marner should be traded if he doesnt budge from something like 10.5x5. 10 million is the absolute max he is worth(500k overpayment tbh) and it should come with 8 years of term. Dubas has to be smart and see that he has a way to fix this team. Dealing marner should bring back a top 2RHD and a top 6LW all signed with term at fair hits.
 

biotk

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When have they played 11 games together? From what I noticed, for whatever reason, it takes Matthews more than the average player's time to build chemistry with his line mates.

I don't know where you are getting this from, but statistics show that Matthews has had almost instant chemistry with everybody (except Marner and Komorov). Nylander, Hyman, Kadri, Kapanen, Johnsson, Leivo, Tavares etc.

And to your other points, Matthews Nylander have not consistently produced well together in meaningful games and are always split up.

This is not true. Nylander and Matthews have been consistent playing with each other before this year. They played well together in the series against Washington (where they were not split up). They were split up eventually against Boston to get Nylander away from Chara. Chara shut down everyone that year (which includes Kucherov and Stamkos who he completely shut down in the next round) and this year (when Marner and Tavares could not produce at all against him).

If Marner is playing with Tavares that easily makes them a shut down line that plays against top opposition.

I am not sure you understand what a shut down line is. Kadri centred a shut down line last year, but Matthews played against top lines just as often. Few teams have a shut down line. Tavares was not used as a shut down line this year. McDavid and MacKinnon are not used as shut down lines. Most teams just play best against best, with the intention being to outscore their opponents, and not generally a focus on shutting them down.

I showed a couple weeks ago that Matthews went up against their opponent's best forwards almost as often as Tavares did this year, and he went up against their opponent's top Ds (which is what most coaches focus on) almost as often as Tavares as well.

I think the culture has to change, Matthews has got to start being the guy but he never will be with Nylander beside him defensively.

Matthews was the guy just the season before - while playing with Nylander. Remember that? When the Leafs only allowed 2.00 GA/60 at 5v5 with Matthews on the ice and scored 4.07 GF/60 while going up against QoC in the 98th percentile (with Tavares this year they were 3.97 GF/60 and 2.68 GA/60). This year Matthews got the crap end of the stick. He played with linemates who were hopeless at controlled exits and got hemmed into their own zone. That doesn't happen with Nylander, and is why the two of them should be together. The Tavares/Marner/Hyman line works because both Marner and Tavares are really strong at zone exits and entries and Hyman is good at creating chaos in the opposing zone stopping the opponents from getting controlled exits. The Matthews and two of Marleau/Kapanen/Johnsson line did not work because with the exception of Matthews the other three suck at zone exists and zone entries, which allowed teams to solely focus on Matthews. Nylander is one of the best at zone exits and entries, and while people think that he is poor defensively - I will take a player who gets the puck out with control better than almost anyone else any day. And incidentally over the last three seasons Nylander's 5v5 GA/60 is lower than any other Leafs' forward.
 
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The CyNick

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How is it leverage if there's no formal offer sheet? No one is going to overpay Marner by several million dollars AND pay 4 1sts for the privilege of doing so, it's a non-threat. Even if we are in bizarro world and someone actually does that, good for them, take the picks.

You would have been the first guy criticizing him for paying a 69 point winger 9x8, sounding smart is easy when all you do is hindsight.

Our worst case scenario is we match a 10.5x5 and kick the can down the road for 5 years. 10.5 is easily survivable if the offer sheet doesn't do any damage to morale and the team controls the media optics.

Time thing about me is I say things before they happened. Feel free to dig up my posts about what I thought the big three would get. It was in line with marners ask. And this was before we signed JT, which was always going to inflate Marners numbers. For some reason our young GM couldn't see this coming. Maybe it's a vision issue with him.

As for the offer sheet thing, it just takes one team willing to pull the trigger. I don't think it's likely a bottom feeder like Ottawa goes after Marner, more likely it's a middling team or a team that's on the cusp of getting really good, and marner moves that plan along. If I were another team I would trade four picks in the 20s for Marner all day. Hell I would trade four picks in the teens for Marner all day.
 

The CyNick

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Marner must talk with the Leafs first...that's what being an RFA means.
"The deadline for teams to send their RFAs qualifying offers is the day following the NHL draft (June 29). On that same date, RFAs can begin contract talks with rival teams."

You think marner is accepting a qualifying offer? He will talk to other teams before considering the five year $11M+ deal he will end signing with the leafs.
 

The CyNick

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Here is the original quote. On the day that Matthews would have been happy, this so-called agent said that.


Probably because they are paying Matthews like a 110pt guy before he's even got one 80pt season under his belt. Coming off the season Marner had, you better believe they expect no less than JT money over five years.
 
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hamzarocks

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Here is the original quote. On the day that Matthews would have been happy, this so-called agent said that.

His agent is right. Matthews got the most team friendly 2nd contract for any player in recent memory. It was a ridiculous contract for a player hyped to unachievable levels by the Toronto media and fans. Marner has every right to point that out and try and get himself a similar sort of deal.

It's been apparent for a while that none of 16, 29,34, 24, 18 give/gave/or will give a damn about the leafs cap situation. They are trying to get every dollar they can.

Dubas needs to stop the madness and put his foot down for once. Marner has the right to ask for an extreme overpay like Matthews got, but Dubas has mo obligation to take that deal. Dubas needs to have already set a hars offer and now should be active in discussions with teams who want 16. Get top value (top 2 RHD+Top 6 winger+). Dont let anyone who rather chase money than be a leaf ruin your team. If marner wont take a fair deal than it's time to move on. We got pressured into signing 34 to his terrible deal don't make the same mistake with marner.
 

kb

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His agent is right. Matthews got the most team friendly 2nd contract for any player in recent memory. It was a ridiculous contract for a player hyped to unachievable levels by the Toronto media and fans. Marner has every right to point that out and try and get himself a similar sort of deal.

It's been apparent for a while that none of 16, 29,34, 24, 18 give/gave/or will give a damn about the leafs cap situation. They are trying to get every dollar they can.

Dubas needs to stop the madness and put his foot down for once. Marner has the right to ask for an extreme overpay like Matthews got, but Dubas has mo obligation to take that deal. Dubas needs to have already set a hars offer and now should be active in discussions with teams who want 16. Get top value (top 2 RHD+Top 6 winger+). Dont let anyone who rather chase money than be a leaf ruin your team. If marner wont take a fair deal than it's time to move on. We got pressured into signing 34 to his terrible deal don't make the same mistake with marner.
It's not about right or wrong. he showed a complete lack of class, just like the dad. It's AM's day, not Mitch's.

Imagine Mitch going into the locker room after that?
 

hamzarocks

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It's not about right or wrong. he showed a complete lack of class, just like the dad. It's AM's day, not Mitch's.

Imagine Mitch going into the locker room after that?
I doubt anyone cared about it. It's one line coming from one of the best players on the teams agent. Matthews understands that marner and his management team will use the contract as a way to push for higher earnings themselves. Ferris saying that line didnt seem to ruin the relationship that 16 and 34 seemed to have developed over the past few years. They were still close after that.
 

realgoodleafs

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If Dubas wants to play hardball he can check in on Panarin and see what he wants. If Marner's camp wants to hold out then tell them they'll have to negotiate with other teams if they don't sign before July 1st.

Not sure if Dubas has the cojones to do it though.
 
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kb

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I doubt anyone cared about it. It's one line coming from one of the best players on the teams agent. Matthews understands that marner and his management team will use the contract as a way to push for higher earnings themselves. Ferris saying that line didnt seem to ruin the relationship that 16 and 34 seemed to have developed over the past few years. They were still close after that.
Yeah, having your clueless agent calling someone out as the most overpaid player in the league is a surefire way to keep friends.
 

hamzarocks

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Yeah, having your clueless agent calling someone out as the most overpaid player in the league is a surefire way to keep friends.
Watching the two on the ice did it appear as they had animosity between them? Did matthews ever mention the quote or call marner out on it? Did the two of them stop appearing on ads together or posting stuff they did on social media? The agent spoke out of place but it's a nothing statement that didnt Matter to Matthews. He got his cash and was happy. Marner also went and had Ferris clear the situation about the low ball offer the next day. He probably didnt want to draw out the Matthews comments from Ferris any further and wanted to let them die.
 

ULF_55

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It's not about right or wrong. he showed a complete lack of class, just like the dad. It's AM's day, not Mitch's.

Imagine Mitch going into the locker room after that?

be nice to have it done one way or another.

he's just another leafs player who will come and go.

4 picks and 9.5 million to use in free agency is fine with me.

it isn't like they'd be breaking up a winner.
 

Legion34

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Both contracts fairly worse than the McDavid contract. How Edmonton was able to lock him up for such a great deal I'll never know.

It was before expansion. Before a second expansion and now TV had come out. The landscape has changed.

Even Seattle went to 650 from 500 mill for expansion.

It’s a different world
 

The CyNick

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Matthews wanted 14 aav for 8 and now Marner wants 12.5 aav for 8, seems fair ... he will settle for 10.5 AAV for 5 years

Matthews at 14 is around the number I came up with. I don't see marner taking less than $14 over 8 years because of the matthews deal. It's crazy the impact that one terrible deal will have.
 
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biotk

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The original comment from Ferris was:

Nope.

Here is the original quote. On the day that Matthews would have been happy, this so-called agent said that.

Yup. People can think that Marner is all about playing for his childhood team, but the bottom line is he chose to hire the agent he chose for a reason. Because, in reality this is all about getting every single dollar that he can possibly get - the team is a distant second. Marner's agent shit on Matthews' contract on the day it was signed. No other agent said a word. Because Ferris is completely classless and Marner is fine with that.

Settle for 10.5M×5?

That's a disgusting contract, I'd rather let his ass sit and holdout or trade him than offer him that contract

Yup.
 
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biotk

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be nice to have it done one way or another.

he's just another leafs player who will come and go.

4 picks and 9.5 million to use in free agency is fine with me.

it isn't like they'd be breaking up a winner.

The Raptors have put winning first. The Leafs should as well. If Marner doesn't want to be a part of that they are better off without him.
 
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Willchel Marlynder

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It was before expansion. Before a second expansion and now TV had come out. The landscape has changed.

Even Seattle went to 650 from 500 mill for expansion.

It’s a different world

That definitely plays a part. But McDavid at 12.5 for 8 vs Matthews at 11.5 for 5 and Marner at what? 10.5 for 6 has too much disparity between the contracts for us to just say we're in different times now.

I don't blame Ferris one bit. Matthews contract is rich as hell for what he's shown so far. 11.5 is a fine number but it should have been 7 years minimum. Marner and his agent are just trying to follow suit. Sky high $$ for as little term as possible.
 

Babcocks Marner

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It was before expansion. Before a second expansion and now TV had come out. The landscape has changed.

Even Seattle went to 650 from 500 mill for expansion.

It’s a different world

What? It was July 2017 and everyone was well aware of the cap increases that Vegas would bring. The 75mil cap was already announced for 17/18 and everyone knew there would be a jump the following season once Vegas's income was factored in.

Even using 75mil (which was published cap over a month before signing) McDavid signed for 16.66% of the cap.

Matthews wanted 16.87%

He wanted more money, period. In this world, similar world.
 
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