Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion Part IV

[GoldenGOOSE]

Meanwhile Tyler Bozak is hugging the Stanley Cup.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

They didn't. McDavid is getting 16.67% of the cap - a significant underpayment. Matthews is getting 14.63%. The incessant moaning about the term is not based on evidence. The 3 players who signed 5 year deals with really high cap hits when coming off their ELCs - Crosby, Malkin and Stamkos - all re-signed for longer term at lower cap hits on their next deals.

He's actually getting 14.01%. Malkin and McDavid got their deals after the cap already went up, so their numbers were on the legit cap. That 14.63% is on this year's cap, not the 83 mill cap. Technically if Marner signed right now for what Kane got, he'd blow that number out of the water.

 

[Mess]

Why would Matthews or Tavares ever be a comparable.

Both Centers, both way better goal scorers.

They are the worst comparables, nowhere close to the same. Completely different players.

Posters love to say that Marner comparables are Matthews and Tavares and at the same time say that all the other RFA wingers use Marner as a comparable.

Every team has its own internal pay scale and depth chart and also there is a market price.

Players will use either/or whatever benefits them most financially.

RFA players around the league understand that Marner using his own teammates and his production and value will move the market needle higher for everyone else.

Marner is not going to use a small market/ budget team comparable like Sebastion Aho in Carolina as his comparable, he is going to use Dubas and his big market/ cap spending team and teammates.

Once Marner gets his deal based on Matthews and JT and +$10 mil per, then other RFA players will use that to say if Marner is worth $10 mil than I'm worth at least $8.5 mil if their production is comparable, but it will depend on how much their own teammates make and how much their team can afford not what Leafs can afford.

It might not seem fair, but life isn't fair and when Leafs brought in Tavares for $11 mil you knew instantly that Matthews and Marner were eying the salary when it came time for them to renew, and willing to put their own production up against JT making the case for why they deserved as much.

 

[Legion34]

This is another fallacy. We don't really gave much cap space if we deal marner. We're already in a spot where we need to throw guys overboard to keep marner at a big number. If you lose marner for picks say, then you're going to look at keeping guys like AJ, Kap, maybe even Gardiner.

Look how many FA signings are utterly God awful. You really want to be in that game of overpaying for guys like DeHaan?

The people thrown over the bus? Like marleau, z and brown?

The leafs can fit him without losing a core peice. They could use the assets and the space

 

[TheTotalPackage]

I find it weird there was no resistance to whatever contract was needed to be signed for Matthews, and now there is this urge to hunker down and draw a line with Marner, who I think is the team's most talented and arguably best player.

 

[Nineteen67]

It’ll be interesting to see what Boston does with Krug and McAvoy this summer.
Will Krug sign an extension or test the UFA waters
McAvoy isn’t eligible for an OS so the Bruins have that in their favour.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

It’ll be interesting to see what Boston does with Krug and McAvoy this summer.
Will Krug sign an extension or test the UFA waters
McAvoy isn’t eligible for an OS so the Bruins have that in their favour.

Why is McAvoy not eligible for an OS?

 

[thewave]

I find it weird there was no resistance to whatever contract was needed to be signed for Matthews, and now there is this urge to hunker down and draw a line with Marner, who I think is the team's most talented and arguably best player.

The Matthews deal is a joke and is not team friendly. The only friendly thing in it or the Nylander contracts is they are paid up front and with bonus'. We can use them 2 years and if they do well or get it done, great, if not, trade.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Every team has its own internal pay scale and depth chart and also there is a market price.

Players will use either/or whatever benefits them most financially.

RFA players around the league understand that Marner using his own teammates and his production and value will move the market needle higher for everyone else.

Marner is not going to use a small market/ budget team comparable like Sebastion Aho in Carolina as his comparable, he is going to use Dubas and his big market/ cap spending team and teammates.

Once Marner gets his deal based on Matthews and JT and +$10 mil per, then other RFA players will use that to say if Marner is worth $10 mil than I'm worth at least $8.5 mil if their production is comparable, but it will depend on how much their own teammates make and how much their team can afford not what Leafs can afford.

It might not seem fair, but life isn't fair and when Leafs brought in Tavares for $11 mil you knew instantly that Matthews and Marner were eying the salary when it came time for them to renew, and willing to put their own production up against JT making the case for why they deserved as much.

Obviously players will use whatever benefits them, but you act like this is a 1 sided negotiation. Teams will use the opposite..

However, the teams comparables will be actual comparables (Top line, playmaking wingers), not just use the highest contract on their own team.

How can Marner's side argue that Matthews and Tavares are comparables, absolutely nowhere close to comparable.

So when its a player on the Leafs they only care about getting the highest amount possible, but all other RFAs will base it on what their team can afford.

In this case RFA and UFA contracts are the same, but with any other team or any other conversation it matters.

You contradict yourself within a single post, it's crazy.

 

[glucker]

I find it weird there was no resistance to whatever contract was needed to be signed for Matthews, and now there is this urge to hunker down and draw a line with Marner, who I think is the team's most talented and arguably best player.

I think Marner comes in behind Matthews and Tavares. He's definitely the flashiest and most personable player on the team, but the other two are better, more important players right now. Marner will likely eventually surpass Tavares's peak, though.

 

[axlrose87]

At this point, if these rumors are true, I prefer to see Marner traded or leave on an offersheet.
I completely understand that he is within his rights to push for every dollar he thinks he is worth but I prefer to see the Leafs succeed. I don't think that is possible if Marner insists on making $3-4 million more per year then his direct comparables (Rantanen, Laine, Aho)..... Although, who knows, maybe all of those guys get grossly overpaid as well.
The picks and cap space will be worth much more then a grossly overpaid Marner (if the reports are true that he is trying to become the highest paid player in the NHL).

 

[Notsince67]

Not even close, if he signs a 10.5M×5 contract it's the 2nd worst RFA contract handed out in recent memory, to go with the 11.6M×5 atrocity we gave Matthews



No, we don't

If that's the situation we should take the picks or trade him before the offersheet comes in, handing out God awful RFA contracts year on year isn't an actual workable plan if you want to be competitive

You say this but it isnt backed with basic math. Just on a dollars per points basis, it is a better contract.

 

[Stephen]

I find it weird there was no resistance to whatever contract was needed to be signed for Matthews, and now there is this urge to hunker down and draw a line with Marner, who I think is the team's most talented and arguably best player.

I disagree. If you see how the playoffs went we need Matthews front and center and Marner’s game is more of a high end accessory.

 

[Nineteen67]

Why is McAvoy not eligible for an OS?

I think it’s because he doesn’t have the 3 full season. He started right after his college season ended. I remember someone saying that when the Bruins brought him up that there was an exception.

 

[Walshy7]

It’ll be interesting to see what Boston does with Krug and McAvoy this summer.
Will Krug sign an extension or test the UFA waters
McAvoy isn’t eligible for an OS so the Bruins have that in their favour.

how is he not OS eligible?

nvm so your reply to a different post

 

[JEI]

I find it weird there was no resistance to whatever contract was needed to be signed for Matthews, and now there is this urge to hunker down and draw a line with Marner, who I think is the team's most talented and arguably best player.

That's the difference. They don't think the same way as you.

 

[Stephen]

Thing I find to be frustrating with the Marner camp is how status driven they seem to be in comparison to Matthews, Nylander, McDavid and they love the celebrity endorsements but seem intent on extracting every last penny in a hostile manner from the organization that best facilitates all of that celebrity flash. I mean, go to the Island. I’m not sure how many Red Bull cans you’ll be on or how many Apple commercials you’ll star in in the Metro NYC area.

 

[biotk]

I find it weird there was no resistance to whatever contract was needed to be signed for Matthews, and now there is this urge to hunker down and draw a line with Marner, who I think is the team's most talented and arguably best player.

Assuming you are referring to there being no resistance from organization to signing Matthews to that contract, I would suggest that the organization completely disagrees with you over who is the team's most talented and best player. Matthews is a big center who has put up big numbers with poor linemates. Marner isn't and hasn't.

I don't care about Marner's 94 points while playing with Tavares. Tavares has always boosted his linemates' numbers. Everyone knows this, and everyone said that the Leafs should have signed Marner last summer because everyone knows his numbers were going to go way up playing with Tavares. But at the same time, many of those same people think that the Leafs should not take into account that Marner's numbers are inflated when it comes to contract negotiations. I don't expect Marner to top 94 points again any time soon. Kane didn't top his year 3 numbers until his 9th season. Eric Staal and Renberg never came close to matching their numbers from when they were 21.

 

[ACC1224]

Thing I find to be frustrating with the Marner camp is how status driven they seem to be in comparison to Matthews, Nylander, McDavid and they love the celebrity endorsements but seem intent on extracting every last penny in a hostile manner from the organization that best facilitates all of that celebrity flash. I mean, go to the Island. I’m not sure how many Red Bull cans you’ll be on or how many Apple commercials you’ll star in in the Metro NYC area.

Things are 'hostile'?

 

[Notsince67]

Take the 4 1sts and we could possibly oversheet a different rfa with our 4 1sts if they available (big if) ie rantanen, point etc.

That way yes we give up our 4 firsts but we will still have 4 firsts. If marner wants to get to that point of course

So you effectively pay the same thing for worse players. I get it. We can offersheet someone else just so we can get Marner off the team.

 

[ACC1224]

So you effectively pay the same thing for worse players. I get it. We can offersheet someone else just so we can get Marner off the team.

Yeah that line of thinking never made any sense.

 

[The CyNick]

The people thrown over the bus? Like marleau, z and brown?

The leafs can fit him without losing a core peice. They could use the assets and the space

I'm not disputing they can fit in marner. You just have to lose a bunch of depth. I would rather keep the skilled guy, but would have been nice if the cap was managed properly by the young gm.

But that's not the point. The point was people saying IF we lose Marner, we're going to have tons of cap space. I'm saying that cap space will be eaten up quickly by pieces already on the roster.

 

[thewave]

So you effectively pay the same thing for worse players. I get it. We can offersheet someone else just so we can get Marner off the team.

That stuff doesn't make sense. What does make sense is front loading and bonus up the first years of whatever deal, run two years of this lineup and see who wants in and who gets traded.

 

[Mess]

Obviously players will use whatever benefits them, but you act like this is a 1 sided negotiation. Teams will use the opposite..

However, the teams comparables will be actual comparables (Top line, playmaking wingers), not just use the highest contract on their own team.

How can Marner's side argue that Matthews and Tavares are comparables, absolutely nowhere close to comparable.

So when its a player on the Leafs they only care about getting the highest amount possible, but all other RFAs will base it on what their team can afford.

In this case RFA and UFA contracts are the same, but with any other team or any other conversation it matters.

You contradict yourself within a single post, it's crazy.

Kucherov put up 128 points finished 2nd in NHL scoring and plays wing and resigned for 8 years @ $9.5 mil as a UFA ..

UFAs generally make more than RFA, because the market supply and demand dictate salary as UFAs, where RFAs are cost controllable without the market setting their price, their own team sets their value.

If what you say is true than Marner should make < Kucherov based on points and based on RFA vs UFA contract. If Marner were in TB he couldn't demand more than Kucherov, and in fact it would be hard to argue he would make more than Stamkos 8 X $8.5 mil who put up 45 goals and 98 points.

So try and explain why Marner is seeking > $10 mil on a shorter term deal and you will soon realize that its his teammates Matthews @$11.634 and Tavares @ $11 mil that are his comparables because he lead the Leafs in scoring and so statistically he is just as valuable to the Leafs team as his own teammates and puts himself at their level so he feels he also deserves to be rewarded financially similar.

In Marner's case his agent Darren Ferris will claim not only is Mitch as valuable but in fact he helped validate JT contract, because he is directly responsible for many of the JT goals and his setting new personal best marks. Tavares put up 47 goals and 88 points for $11 mil and Marner put up 94 points.

There is no contradiction here at all.

 

[Stephen]

Things are 'hostile'?

Yeah, re: diatribe over the Matthews contract, publicly mentioning getting slighted in negotiations, no home town discounts, commentary about Patrick Kane money, leaking offer sheet news.