Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion Part II

[MyBudJT]

And his ability to translate that over a full 82-game season was never realized until he played with Tavares. The same Tavares who barely surpassed his previous career-high in points, in a season where offense was inflated (at least at the top, among the elite scorers).

Marner's a remarkable young player, but it really shouldn't be some terrible slight to acknowledge that he, like every other winger to play with JT before him, has benefitted offensively from playing with Tavares.

It shouldn't be hard to acknowledge that both players benefited from playing with each other...

For anyone that watched the games this season, how can you not admit that Marner set up Tavares for a LOT of tap-ins.

 

[Sypher04]

Marner camp starts with $9 mil X 8, and Dubas counters with $7.5 mil X 8 and Darren Ferris his agent responds publicly with Leafs are low-balling his client, so see you next summer.

The rumoured Draisaitl contract at $8.5 mil X 8 would be looking real good right about now as middle ground.

I bet if Dubas had a do-over now, he would handle all 3 Amigo's contracts differently and much better contractually.

Dubas is kinda damned if you do, damned if you don't here imo.

Last summer, given his 2 elc years there would have been no justification to give Marner 9M yet. That's 500k less than Kucherov, who is the best winger in the league.

And this is if you just take the single and completely unsubtatianted report from one "insider" with a pretty bad track record at face value.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Horton isn't that much of a problem this year since they aren't enough attainable performance bonuses for the Leafs to have to avoid using LTIR like they had to last year.

Several of the prospects that are the most likely to make the leap this year to the big club have performance bonuses in their contracts. e.g., Liljegren, Bracco.

 

[Nithoniniel]

And his ability to translate that over a full 82-game season was never realized until he played with Tavares. The same Tavares who barely surpassed his previous career-high in points, in a season where offense was inflated (at least at the top, among the elite scorers).

Marner's a remarkable young player, but it really shouldn't be some terrible slight to acknowledge that he, like every other winger to play with JT before him, has benefitted offensively from playing with Tavares.

Anything except full blown credit for everything seem to be a slight to some.

Tavares has been a superstar in this league for 10 years, yet suddenly it's Marner who helps him be that.

 

[MyBudJT]

Anything except full blown credit for everything seem to be a slight to some.

Tavares has been a superstar in this league for 10 years, yet suddenly it's Marner who helps him be that.

Well, its clear they benefited from playing with each other, really. You can't say that Marner only produced because of Tavares or that Tavares only produced because of Marner. Both have proven to produce at >P/GP paces on other lines. Marner hasn't had the sample of games yet to extract a full season, but Marner produced at a 95ish point pace over a 40ish game sample size with Kadri and Marleau.

 

[DarkKnight]

Anything except full blown credit for everything seem to be a slight to some.

Tavares has been a superstar in this league for 10 years, yet suddenly it's Marner who helps him be that.

Actually, the fact Tavares has been in this league for 10 years, and only this year did he destroy his 5 v 5 production is a testament to Marner. He scored a eye popping 12 more goals even strength than he has in his elite career, his points equally impressive.

Its really amusing to me the full time Nylander tire pumpers always seem to be the Marner detractors. Its just so transparent.

Marner has benefitted Tavares, period. Tavares has benefitted Marner period. The fact a 10 year pro just obliterated his career highs even strength wasn't an accident.

 

[IBeL34f]

It shouldn't be hard to acknowledge that both players benefited from playing with each other...

For anyone that watched the games this season, how can you not admit that Marner set up Tavares for a LOT of tap-ins.

Who said they couldn't?

Here's the thing, though: Marner didn't put up his elite points until he had someone who could convert on the chances that he created; Tavares, on the other hand, put up his elite points pretty much regardless of who he played with. As Nithoniniel mentioned, JT's been a superstar in the NHL for a decade - His production this year was really nothing new, with the exception of the distribution of Goals and Assists.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

I concur... dreger will back track any day now
he made it up
marner has 0 leverage .his agent could piss off the wealthiest team in the league and just because dubas gave nylander a lily bit more marner will get brayden point money
the leafs may surprise us all and hold the line
not many sports today u can command outrageous salaries at 22 years old
let's hope marners parents are not involved

Marner has a ton of leverage. He is not going to. Sign an contract based on his comparables, he is going to sign a contract based on internal cap structure and his GM gave him lots of leverage. We can and we will and we have to get Marner signed before July 1st. Add in the chance of an offer sheet and the leverage is very high. The leafs would match the offer sheet as they know the draft picks would in no way be as high a value as Marner is. As well you simply do not allow another team to bully you.

RFAs have no leverage, yet Nylander and Matthews got the contracts that they did. Not sure how much of an impact the "RFAs have no leverage" theory had.

Marner drives offense along the same lines as other very talented wingers like Kane. Any forward playing with him will benefit. This seems like a pretty obvious and simple fact, so I'm not understanding the downplaying of Marner's talent level and worth.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

Man it's been tiring jumping from contract discussions from Nylander to Matthews to Marner. Regardless of the outcome, I think it's very important that it doesn't drag as we need to make several other decisions that will be held up.

 

[Brown Dog]

This all originated from you or some other poster calling Matthews/Marner/Nylander selfish.

Crosby/Malkin signed for 17.3% and 15.5% of the cap each after their ELC. Guess what? They won the cup during that contract period. You can't win with 50 players signed to big contracts. The Leafs fan base needs to suck it up and realize you can't sign Johnsson/Kapanen/Kadri/Hyman/Brown/Marleau/Zaitsev/etc at whatever they make, while keeping an incredible core of Matthews/Tavares/Marner/Nylander/Rielly/Muzzin/Andersen.


xxx - Matthews - Nylander
xxx - Tavares - Marner

Rielly - xxx (Need this =Dermott/Sandin/Lilijegren)
Muzzin - xxx

Andersen

That's literally all you need to win the cup and that fits amazingly easily with whatever they realistically sign for. Makes zero sense to call a player selfish for not taking less than what they're worth lol. Would it be nice? Obviously. But be realistic. You wouldn't sign less money at your job so you can see your company succeed. This is the NHL, but it's the same concept.

I would.

 

[MyBudJT]

Who said they couldn't?

Here's the thing, though: Marner didn't put up his elite points until he had someone who could convert on the chances that he created; Tavares, on the other hand, put up his elite points pretty much regardless of who he played with. As Nithoniniel mentioned, JT's been a superstar in the NHL for a decade - His production this year was really nothing new, with the exception of the distribution of Goals and Assists.

But he DID.

Marner has been producing approximately at a 95 point pace since January 24th 2018. Prior to being on Tavares' line, he did it on Kadri's line.

Its not fair to use the "Tavares has done it for a decade" take, because Marner hasn't had the opportunity to play in the league for a decade. Just because he is new to the league, and took 1.5 years to figure it out, doesn't mean he's any less of a player.

 

[MyBudJT]

Actually, the fact Tavares has been in this league for 10 years, and only this year did he destroy his 5 v 5 production is a testament to Marner. He scored a eye popping 12 more goals even strength than he has in his elite career, his points equally impressive.

Its really amusing to me the full time Nylander tire pumpers always seem to be the Marner detractors. Its just so transparent.

Marner has benefitted Tavares, period. Tavares has benefitted Marner period. The fact a 10 year pro just obliterated his career highs even strength wasn't an accident.

Even strength production only matters when Nylander does it, I guess .

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Actually, the fact Tavares has been in this league for 10 years, and only this year did he destroy his 5 v 5 production is a testament to Marner. He scored a eye popping 12 more goals even strength than he has in his elite career, his points equally impressive.

Its really amusing to me the full time Nylander tire pumpers always seem to be the Marner detractors. Its just so transparent.

Marner has benefitted Tavares, period. Tavares has benefitted Marner period. The fact a 10 year pro just obliterated his career highs even strength wasn't an accident.

They both helped each other for sure and neither has ever played with a linemate as good as each other so it is no wonder they exploded in ES production.

 

[IBeL34f]

Actually, the fact Tavares has been in this league for 10 years, and only this year did he destroy his 5 v 5 production is a testament to Marner. He scored a eye popping 12 more goals even strength than he has in his elite career, his points equally impressive.

Its really amusing to me the full time Nylander tire pumpers always seem to be the Marner detractors. Its just so transparent.

Marner has benefitted Tavares, period. Tavares has benefitted Marner period. The fact a 10 year pro just obliterated his career highs even strength wasn't an accident.

What's amusing and transparent is that someone is labeled a 'Marner detractor' for acknowledging that Marner improved more by playing with Tavares - a 10-year superstar in the NHL - than vice versa.

Why is JT's jump of 14 EVP (56-70) a testament to playing with Marner, but Marner's jump of 28 EVP (42-70) not a testament to playing with Tavares?

We already new that Marner was the most talented winger Tavares has ever played with. In every possible metric that I can see, though, with the exception of simple Goals, Marner showed more drastic increases in production than Tavares did. That's not to detract from anyone, it's just a statement of fact.

 

[biotk]

So let me get this right. Gretzky always was the highest point player on his line but he was never the best player.

Huh? Even if the person you were responded to said "always" which he didn't, Gretzky led the league in goals 5 times and led the Oilers in goals his first 6 seasons often by a very large margin. Crosby who you mention next was generally the highest goal scoring player on his line, especially during his early years.

Now that Marner has more points then his high scoring center it is the center who is the one creating the offence despite having more points then ever he also had his highest goal totals and for the first time had more goals then assist. He was already a high scoring center and Marner made him into a top goal scoring. If the PP was good both would have exceeded 100 points.

I have said before then when you account for the increased scoring by looking at adjusted points, Tavares season was just slightly above average over the course of his career well behind 2012/13 in terms of goals, and well behind 2013/14 and 2014/15 in terms of points.

 

[biotk]

We already new that Marner was the most talented winger Tavares has ever played with.

True - and if you go back to last summer in the thread about how many points Tavares would get during his first season with the Leafs, playing with Marner on his wing, how many posters expected Tavares' point production to go up by less than 5?

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Actually, the fact Tavares has been in this league for 10 years, and only this year did he destroy his 5 v 5 production is a testament to Marner. He scored a eye popping 12 more goals even strength than he has in his elite career, his points equally impressive.

Its really amusing to me the full time Nylander tire pumpers always seem to be the Marner detractors. Its just so transparent.

Marner has benefitted Tavares, period. Tavares has benefitted Marner period. The fact a 10 year pro just obliterated his career highs even strength wasn't an accident.

Tavares did not "destroy" his 5v5 production. in 2014/15, he was 5th in 5v5 points and 3rd in 5v5 primary points with Okposo and Bailey as his most common linemates. This year Tavares was 4th in 5v5 points and 3rd in 5v5 primary points. Scoring is way up, so his totals look better than they actually are

Meanwhile, Marner went from 65th and 75th to 7th and 1st. Now that's a massive improvement courtesy of a guy who's elevated his wingers for his whole career. It's definitely a mutually beneficial relationship, but I think Marner benefits more than people will admit

 

[LastWordArmy]

The options on Marner

Toronto Maple Leafs and the Possibilities On A Mitch Marner Contract

 

[Bomber0104]

Tavares did not "destroy" his 5v5 production. in 2014/15, he was 5th in 5v5 points and 3rd in 5v5 primary points with Okposo and Bailey as his most common linemates. This year Tavares was 4th in 5v5 points and 3rd in 5v5 primary points. Scoring is way up, so his totals look better than they actually are

Meanwhile, Marner went from 65th and 75th to 7th and 1st. Now that's a massive improvement courtesy of a guy who's elevated his wingers for his whole career. It's definitely a mutually beneficial relationship, but I think Marner benefits more than people will admit

Have we considered the fact that maybe Marner's game is improving each year?

Or are you suggesting that he's the same player now as he was his rookie/sophomore seasons?

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Have we considered the fact that maybe Marner's improving individually each year?

I'm sure he is. It's still not accurate to say he helped Tavares destroy career totals

 

[IPS]

Tavares did not "destroy" his 5v5 production. in 2014/15, he was 5th in 5v5 points and 3rd in 5v5 primary points with Okposo and Bailey as his most common linemates. This year Tavares was 4th in 5v5 points and 3rd in 5v5 primary points. Scoring is way up, so his totals look better than they actually are

Meanwhile, Marner went from 65th and 75th to 7th and 1st. Now that's a massive improvement courtesy of a guy who's elevated his wingers for his whole career. It's definitely a mutually beneficial relationship, but I think Marner benefits more than people will admit

Thank you!

It's akin to these dimwits who constantly compare Matthews' and Nylander's points straight across with other players (completely ignoring the difference of offensive usage) to proclaim how horrible their contracts are.

It's mutually beneficial no doubt. but there's no need to be dishonest.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Even strength production only matters when Nylander does it, I guess .

"And the Nylander detractors seem to be full-time Marner tire pumpers, it's just so transparent"

Why can't all of you just like both skilled players and not compare/roast

 

[LeafingTheWay]

They both helped each other for sure and neither has ever played with a linemate as good as each other so it is no wonder they exploded in ES production.

Agreed with this.

 

[MyBudJT]

"And the Nylander detractors seem to be full-time Marner tire pumpers, it's just so transparent"

Why can't all of you just like both skilled players and not compare/roast

It was a joke. Nith (and a few others) have been using ES production to claim that Nylander is so good.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

I would.

No you wouldn't, unless your family owns the company