Salary Cap: Marner contract signing watch discussion.

[ImpartialNHLfan]

Exactly. There are multiple cases of players signing for less in no tax states.

There are NO cases of front loaded contracts lowering taxes.

It’s nice to see a poster with a level head who actually tries to understand what’s going on in the league

Matthews is one

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Front loading a contract benefits the team as much as a player (makes them easier to trade to budget teams later on). And theres really no history of it lowering aavs.

It's just an extra incentive to get the player to sign what's offered

If that were the case, then quite literally every player would have a contract structured the way nylanders is.
But they don’t. In fact, very very VERY few contracts are any where near as front-loaded as Nylanders, with FAR less in signing bonuses.

These are perks that PLAYERS fight for, with the payoff being lower cap hits.

In theory, no state tax is a benefit for the PLAYER, but Tampa has twisted it into a perk for the TEAM. Their players, at the aav’s they’re signing for, are getting literally no benefit from it.

 

[Notsince67]

Never playing a minute of center in his entire pro career? Getting moved out of centre in junior?

This is without doubt the dumbest argument I've been involved in on here

Marner is a fantastic RW, he's not a center and Babcock has used Marleau and Nylander (who he doesn't trust) at center instead of Marner

How is that hard to understand? Marner has enough positives without needing to manufacture stuff

He was not moved out in junior because of skill. Perhaps you should educate yourself a little more before you run your mouth.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Exactly. There are multiple cases of players signing for less in no tax states.

There are NO cases of front loaded contracts lowering taxes.

It’s nice to see a poster with a level head who actually tries to understand what’s going on in the league

So the things that provide financial advantages for the players done by the leafs don’t count. And the things that provide financial advantages for the players done by other teams DO count.

Fascinating.

 

[Menzinger]

If that were the case, then quite literally every player would have a contract structured the way nylanders is.
But they don’t. In fact, very very VERY few contracts are any where near as front-loaded as Nylanders, with FAR less in signing bonuses.

These are perks that PLAYERS fight for, with the payoff being lower cap hits.

In theory, no state tax is a benefit for the PLAYER, but Tampa has twisted it into a perk for the TEAM. Their players, at the aav’s they’re signing for, are getting literally no benefit from it.

Lots of teams cant afford to front load contracts. It's only the wealthy ones who can and do. It's just the Leafs using their financial assets to their advantage to up the players trade value to budget teams. That's all.

 

[Legion34]

Lots of teams cant afford to front load contracts. It's only the wealthy ones who can and do. It's just the Leafs using their financial assets to their advantage to up the players trade value to budget teams. That's all.

Every team can do it. Most do.

The leafs cannot offer tax breaks

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Lots of teams cant afford to front load contracts. It's only the wealthy ones who can and do. It's just the Leafs using their financial assets to their advantage to up the players trade value to budget teams. That's all.

Hahahaha.
You're saying the players don't want their money front loaded and with signing bonsues? You're saying it's a concession the players make?

You're not really saying that, are you?

 

[Jeypic]

Under that same line of reasoning, different tax rates shouldn’t affect total dollars signed for.
If I work for a company under a contract, and they offer to transfer me to another state/province, they don’t pay me more/less to offset the tax differences.

The fact is if you play in tampa, they get them for lower aav’s due to the tax advantage. And if you play in Toronto, they should get them for lower aav’s based on all the additional money you can make as a maple leaf.

And what about the front loading/signing bonus argument?

Nobody in tampa is expected to take less then the league comparables. Nobody in toronto is expected to take less then the league comparables. These are both desirable places to play though, so some players might if they have to. It could be argued that the tax advantage and palm trees are alot more desirable then the opportunity to pick up a bit more work though.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

The lengths people will go here to spin the truth.

Get this.

Apparently Tavares, who has a RIDICULOUSlY front loaded contract paid NINETY PERCENT in signing bonuses... get this... he didn't even really want it... and get this... it was the LEAFS that insisted on it. Why? So his contract is more tradable later.
Oh... but know what else they gave him? A FULL NO MOVEMENT CLAUSE EACH AND EVERY SEASON!!!!
How does that make any f***ing sense?

This is too much dishonesty and spin at this point.

It's a PERK to the player that comes at the trade off of LOWERING THE AAV!!!!

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Nobody in tampa is expected to take less then the league comparables. Nobody in toronto is expected to take less then the league comparables. These are both desirable places to play though, so some players might if they have to. It could be argued that the tax advantage and palm trees are alot more desirable then the opportunity to pick up a bit more work though.

Yeah, and you don't think the GM has anything at all to do with any of this? You don't think some gm's are better negotiators than others? You're saying every gm is 100% equally good as every other gm? It's just that some players are "more willing" to sign fair contracts than others?
Why are these gm's paid then?

 

[Jeypic]

Yeah, and you don't think the GM has anything at all to do with any of this? You don't think some gm's are better negotiators than others? You're saying every gm is 100% equally good as every other gm? It's just that some players are "more willing" to sign fair contracts than others?
Why are these gm's paid then?

1)yes
2)yes
3)no
4)yes
5)make the best team they can with the cards they’re dealt.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

1)yes
2)yes
3)no
4)yes
5)make the best team they can with the cards they’re dealt.

So some gm's are good and some suck?

Ok. Our gm only gives out dramatic overpayments. I'd say he sucks.

 

[Jeypic]

So some gm's are good and some suck?

Ok. Our gm only gives out dramatic overpayments. I'd say he sucks.

yes.
What does that have to do with tampas tax savings and palm trees being more desirable then torontos opportunity to pick up extra work on the side?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Lots of teams cant afford to front load contracts. It's only the wealthy ones who can and do. It's just the Leafs using their financial assets to their advantage to up the players trade value to budget teams. That's all.

Front-loading has no benefit for the player, and only helps rich teams trade players later?

Care to explain why Tavares has a full NMC every season while having one of the most front-loaded/signing bonus-laden contracts in nhl history?

I can't wait to see the spin you use to get out of this one.

I literally can't wait.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

yes.
What does that have to do with tampas tax savings and palm trees being more desirable then torontos opportunity to pick up extra work on the side?

The tax savings should be a perk for the player, not the team. As it is, Tampa has somehow gotten their players to buy into the tax benefits as being a perk for the TEAM and not the individual player. The TEAM is paying far less than the other teams, while the players are "taking home" the same as other players. I'd say their gm did an absolutely fantastic job convincing their players to buy into this.

I wish we had a gm that was able to get leaf players to buy into things...
You know... front loading contracts more than anyone else. Giving more signing bonuses than anyone else. Having more endorsements than anyone else if you play for Toronto.
Sure wish we had a gm that could get players to buy into this team...

 

[Kiwi]

He was not moved out in junior because of skill. Perhaps you should educate yourself a little more before you run your mouth.

Good God, I can feel brain cells dying

He was moved out of center because he's not suited to playing there, even in junior he was moved back to the wing because it suits his game better

He's a world class, playmaking RW not a center and the fact that even when we have significant injuries and/or suspensions to our centers he's not shifted there should tell you something

HE. IS. NOT. A. CENTER.

 

[Jeypic]

The tax savings should be a perk for the player, not the team. As it is, Tampa has somehow gotten their players to buy into the tax benefits as being a perk for the TEAM and not the individual player. The TEAM is paying far less than the other teams, while the players are "taking home" the same as other players. I'd say their gm did an absolutely fantastic job convincing their players to buy into this.

I wish we had a gm that was able to get leaf players to buy into things...
You know... front loading contracts more than anyone else. Giving more signing bonuses than anyone else. Having more endorsements than anyone else.
Sure wish we had a gm that could get players to buy into this team...

The tax savings are a perk for the player and the team.

We werent having a conversation on whether Kyle Dubas is a good gm or not.

I will say that every gm has a unique situation though. So if you expect Dubas to be able to play tampas cards, you are wrong. They arent as good.

 

[Legion34]

Good God, I can feel brain cells dying

He was moved out of center because he's not suited to playing there, even in junior he was moved back to the wing because it suits his game better

He's a world class, playmaking RW not a center and the fact that even when we have significant injuries and/or suspensions to our centers he's not shifted there should tell you something

HE. IS. NOT. A. CENTER.

Exactly. If he was a C. Babcock would be playing him with rookies and Matthews with Tavares.

I think some people are related to him. Im pretty sure they will argue he could be the best goalie on the team

 

[Gary Nylund]

They are not equal as much as you are trying to make them out to be.

I literally said I agree it to be a factor in why players chose the destinations they do, but as far as being a negotiating factor available to the club to get lower AAVs it's just not a sensible argument.

In either case, I truly dislike circular arguments so I'll happily exit our debate here.

I'm not saying they're equal, merely analogous.

I'm not advocating the Leafs take the position that you'll make 5 million in endorsements here so take 5 million in salary instead of 10 million, I agree that wouldn't be fair (for a number of reasons). However, I see no problem with for example pegging Marner's range at whatever, say 9.5 to 10.5 for arguments sake and holding firm at the bottom end of that range knowing full well that he will make that up several times over in endorsements. And I think that is quite similar to what Stevie Y did in TB, and very successfully I might add.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

The tax savings are a perk for the player and the team.

We werent having a conversation on whether Kyle Dubas is a good gm or not.

I will say that every gm has a unique situation though. So if you expect Dubas to be able to play tampas cards, you are wrong. They arent as good.

No. Tampa has spun it to their players that the tax benefits are now JUST a perk for the team.

After tax deductions, Tampa players (who sign lower aav's) make fair market value. But the TEAM pays less total money to them than other teams do for comparable players (look at Stamkos vs Tavares). Tampa has spun it as JUST a perk for the team. That's because they have a good gm. As opposed to a bad gm.

Toronto is the richest team who can give more front-loaded signing bonus-laden contracts in a city that gives more endorsments than anyone else.
Our gm SHOULD be able to spin that into lower aav's, like Tampa can. But our gm sucks.

 

[Notsince67]

Good God, I can feel brain cells dying

He was moved out of center because he's not suited to playing there, even in junior he was moved back to the wing because it suits his game better

He's a world class, playmaking RW not a center and the fact that even when we have significant injuries and/or suspensions to our centers he's not shifted there should tell you something

HE. IS. NOT. A. CENTER.

Again...not answering with the skill deficiency. Good on you. Stop replying to me. You are wasting my time. You have nothing

 

[Kiwi]

Again...not answering with the skill deficiency. Good on you. Stop replying to me. You are wasting my time. You have nothing

So because he has skill he magically becomes a center even though he's never played a pro game there? Does that apply to every position?

He's very highly skilled so is he a defenseman and goalie as well?

Do you think about this stuff or just start writing and **** happens?

 

[Notsince67]

So because he has skill he magically becomes a center even though he's never played a pro game there? Does that apply to every position?

He's very highly skilled so is he a defenseman and goalie as well?

Do you think about this stuff or just start writing and **** happens?

I didnt say he was. Stop trolling

 

[Kiwi]

I didnt say he was. Stop trolling

This seems a tad aggressive, all I wanted to know was how writing "skill" meant Marner is transformed from a RW into someone that can play Center when he's never played a pro game there

I'm keen to learn the thinking behind this theory

 

[Notsince67]

This seems a tad aggressive, all I wanted to know was how writing "skill" meant Marner is transformed from a RW into someone that can play Center when he's never played a pro game there

I'm keen to learn the thinking behind this theory

Oh are you. Ok lets start again genius. I said that Marner only lacks one skill at center. You have yet to list any deficiencies. If you are so blithely ignorant that you cant list even one of any importance then I suggest you find something better to do. Your childish harrassment is laughable. Go away little man.