Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XVIII (continued)

[18leafsfan18]

Pasta didn't sign his deal until September, you really think he didn't care about the money? And Marchand signed that contract when he was a 50/60 point player, not a ppg one.

Why is it difficult for people to put things into context.

Both outperform their contract, pretty simple.

There are a ton of examples all over the league and some Leafs contracts have the same opportunity as well.

 

[Damisoph]

They have an amazing team, worse case with Marner they get him or 4 1st round picks.

Leafs fans don't have the worst luck, they just complain the most.

counterpoint - most fans just makes it seem like we complain the most. I nominate Buffalo or NYI fans for that.

 

[biotk]

Do you not find it odd that none of the other RFA's have signed?

Not really. I think that all of the major unsigned RFAs and their teams are not close right now.

 

[Walshy7]

Not really. I think that all of the major unsigned RFAs and their teams are not close right now.

so many unsigned, I think we see a full season sit out..

edit: please not marner, please not marner

 

[Nineteen67]

I’m sure Marner wants a signing bonus as part of his contract, but that doesn’t change the summer cap math. There’s no incentive to delay a Marner signing for cap reasons.

Right. I should have clarified and said he’d want it now

 

[57 Years No Cup]

What cap space did Dubas clear out?

He essentially has the exact same amount of money to pay Marner as he did at the start of the summer (which is a good thing - as they decided how much Marner was worth and have stuck to it):

Traded Kadri, Rosen, Marleau, Zaitsev and Brown (18.1M)
Signed or traded for: Kerfoot, Barrie, Ceci, Harpur, Johnsson and Kapanen (18.1M)

You forgot Hainsey and Gardiner's cap space.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

What cap space did Dubas clear out?

He essentially has the exact same amount of money to pay Marner as he did at the start of the summer (which is a good thing - as they decided how much Marner was worth and have stuck to it):

Traded Kadri, Rosen, Marleau, Zaitsev and Brown (18.1M)
Signed or traded for: Kerfoot, Barrie, Ceci, Harpur, Johnsson and Kapanen (18.1M)

Are you leaving out Hainsey and Gardiner on purpose?

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Exact same amount of money is available to sign Marner. If the Leafs pay him more a player like Johnsson or Kapanen would have to be moved out. So no, they didn't clear up a cent to sign Marner no matter how you want to spin it.

Someone's spinning it and it ain't them.

 

[ShaneFalco]

so many unsigned, I think we see a full season sit out..

edit: please not marner, please not marner

I don't think the Leafs let that happen

 

[biotk]

You forgot Hainsey and Gardiner's cap space.

Why would anyone include them? They were not on the cap this year.

Ok. Dubas also didn't resign Hainsey and Gardiner clearing up another $0.00 for Marner.

You can look at the cap situation at the start of the summer. A reasonable lineup with what the Leafs had was 70.58M with Marner to sign and Kapanen and Johnsson getting shipped out. After the trades and signings the lineup looks like it is about 71.18M with Marner to sign. That is zero dollars freed up for Marner, period.

Marleau was traded to free up dollars for Johnsson and Kapanen. If he was not traded they would have been.

 

[Cor]

Dubas didn’t clear physical dollars, but he put it to FAR better use, filling our top 4 RD hole, while maintaining our Center depth and keeping Kapanen and Johnsson.

Allowing us to dedicate the 10.4Mish of space after Horton on LTIR and demotions, all on Marner.

It’s really not all that hard of a situation to grasp, and how tremendous the cap turn around this summer has been.

 

[biotk]

Dubas didn’t clear physical dollars, but he put it to FAR better use, filling our top 4 RD hole, while maintaining our Center depth and keeping Kapanen and Johnsson.

Allowing us to dedicate the 10.4Mish of space after Horton on LTIR and demotions, all on Marner.

It’s really not all that hard of a situation to grasp, and how tremendous the cap turn around this summer has been.

Dubas put together a better team and it is extremely impressive that he managed to do so without it costing much additional cap space - but he cleared up zero dollars for Marner.

Before his moves:

C: Tavares, Matthews, Kadri, Gauthier (27.8M)
LW: Marleau, Hyman, Petan (or some equivalent), Mikheyev (10.2M)
RW: Marner's spot, Nylander, Moore, some random 4th liner (8.48M)
D: Rielly, Muzzin, Zaitsev, Dermott, 2 3rd pairers paid around what Marincin and Holl get (15.8M)
G: Freddie, Hutch (5.7M)
Two spares, plus Kessel retention (2.6M)
Total 70.58M with Marner still to sign.

After his moves:
C: Tavares, Matthews, Kefoot, Spezza (26.8M)

LW: Johnsson, Hyman, Petan (or some equivalent), Mikheyev (7.35M)
RW: Marner's spot, Nylander, Kapanen, Moore (10.94M)
D: Rielly, Muzzin, Barrie, Ceci, Dermott, 1 3rd pairing guy paid around what Marincin and Holl get (17.81M)
G: Freddie, Hutch (5.7M)
Two spares, plus Kessel retention (2.6M)
Total 71.2M with Marner still to sign.

Despite the fetishization around here that every move was made to free up money for Marner, the moves were made to build a better team around their core. It had nothing to do with freeing up money for Marner, and indeed no money was freed up for that.​

 

[Suntouchable13]

Dubas put together a better team and it is extremely impressive that he managed to do so without it costing much additional cap space - but he cleared up zero dollars for Marner.

Before his moves:

C: Tavares, Matthews, Kadri, Gauthier (27.8M)
LW: Marleau, Hyman, Petan (or some equivalent), Mikheyev (10.2M)
RW: Marner's spot, Nylander, Moore, some random 4th liner (8.48M)
D: Rielly, Muzzin, Zaitsev, Dermott, 2 3rd pairers paid around what Marincin and Holl get (15.8M)
G: Freddie, Hutch (5.7M)
Two spares, plus Kessel retention (2.6M)
Total 70.58M with Marner still to sign.

After his moves:
C: Tavares, Matthews, Kefoot, Spezza (26.8M)

LW: Johnsson, Hyman, Petan (or some equivalent), Mikheyev (7.35M)
RW: Marner's spot, Nylander, Kapanen, Moore (10.94M)
D: Rielly, Muzzin, Barrie, Ceci, Dermott, 1 3rd pairing guy paid around what Marincin and Holl get (17.81M)
G: Freddie, Hutch (5.7M)
Two spares, plus Kessel retention (2.6M)
Total 71.2M with Marner still to sign.

Despite the fetishization around here that every move was made to free up money for Marner, the moves were made to build a better team around their core. It had nothing to do with freeing up money for Marner, and indeed no money was freed up for that.​

I would tell him: this is the cap space we have, I am not trading anyone to make more cap space for you. Sorry.

 

[ACC1224]

so many unsigned, I think we see a full season sit out..

edit: please not marner, please not marner

I'd say not a chance by any of the top end guys.

 

[biotk]

I would tell him: this is the cap space we have, I am not trading anyone to make more cap space for you. Sorry.

I agree, and I think that is what they did tell him at the start of the summer - that moves were going to be made to improve the rest of the roster but those moves were not going to increase or decrease the amount of cap space they have set aside for him.

People knew that they only had around 10M for Marner
Then Marleau was traded and many people on here said "look now they can pay Marner more" but that money went to re-signing Kapanen and Johnsson (as it should have)
Then Zaitsev and Brown were traded and many people on here said "look now they can pay Marner more" because they are going to walk away from Ceci, but they didn't (nor should they have), but there was still the money from Brown.
Then Kadri was traded and many people on here said "look now they can pay Marner more" but they signed Kerfoot for 3.5 and between Kerfoot and Barrie it cancelled out the savings from Brown.

No move has been made to free up money for Marner. From the start of the summer they had an amount that they thought was fair value, and then they made transactions to work the rest of the roster.

 

[Walshy7]

I'd say not a chance by any of the top end guys.

maybe, just a feeling for me I think someone does. Perhaps Laine, top pedigree goal scorer had a really down year. Could lead to him sitting a year out if he wants big bucks and the jets don't want to do it AND also Connor to pay

 

[Walshy7]

I would tell him: this is the cap space we have, I am not trading anyone to make more cap space for you. Sorry.

I agree, and even then its not like what we have left is offensive to him in reality. I guess in his agent/dads reality it could be offensive.

 

[ShaneFalco]

They really need to make an earlier deadline for these contracts so the team isn't held up all summer long

 

[ACC1224]

maybe, just a feeling for me I think someone does. Perhaps Laine, top pedigree goal scorer had a really down year. Could lead to him sitting a year out if he wants big bucks and the jets don't want to do it AND also Connor to pay

A lockout the following year could mean sitting out two seasons.
Can't see anyone throwing away that amount, be very tough to recoup.

 

[ToDavid]

This is one of the sillier arguments I’ve seen on HF. Cap space is fungible. A particular dollar saved is not allocated to any particular player. The cap space at the beginning of the summer didn’t belong to Marner anymore or any less than the cap space freed up belongs to him.

The moves that have saved cap space this summer allowed us to sign the RFAs we have signed/will sign (including Marner) and make the trades we’ve made. There’s no such thing as this move freeing space for that player or that move freeing space for this player.

 

[Randy Randerson]

I agree, and I think that is what they did tell him at the start of the summer - that moves were going to be made to improve the rest of the roster but those moves were not going to increase or decrease the amount of cap space they have set aside for him.

People knew that they only had around 10M for Marner
Then Marleau was traded and many people on here said "look now they can pay Marner more" but that money went to re-signing Kapanen and Johnsson (as it should have)
Then Zaitsev and Brown were traded and many people on here said "look now they can pay Marner more" because they are going to walk away from Ceci, but they didn't (nor should they have), but there was still the money from Brown.
Then Kadri was traded and many people on here said "look now they can pay Marner more" but they signed Kerfoot for 3.5 and between Kerfoot and Barrie it cancelled out the savings from Brown.

No move has been made to free up money for Marner. From the start of the summer they had an amount that they thought was fair value, and then they made transactions to work the rest of the roster.

I think maybe Dubas has decided what Marner is worth and left enough space for that. Not having more is an easy way to disarm the "I want more" arguments from Marner's camp, sends a clear message of where he's valued

 

[Nithoniniel]

They really need to make an earlier deadline for these contracts so the team isn't held up all summer long

Whether they have contracts over the summer or not is largely inconsequential.

 

[Mess]

Both will lose.

Short term deal for 9M

I think the only resolution also based on where both sides sit presently dug in that a shorter term 3 years of less deal might be the outcome.

It wouldn't even surprise me if its a 1 year deal during training camp just to get Mitch on the ice next year and we're not going through another of those Nylander extended dramas.

I think your # is a little high though if where talking 1-3 years. IMO

 

[ACC1224]

I think the only resolution also based on where both sides sit presently dug in that a shorter term 3 years of less deal might be the outcome.

It wouldn't even surprise me if its a 1 year deal during training camp just to get Mitch on the ice next year and we're not going through another of those Nylander extended dramas.

I think your # is a little high though if where talking 1-3 years. IMO

Wouldn't 1 year leave him potentially without money coming in should a lockout occur?

 

[Walshy7]

A lockout the following year could mean sitting out two seasons.
Can't see anyone throwing away that amount, be very tough to recoup.

yep good point. Although with Seattle due to start around that time would the league like to have a black stain in the face of that? not sure they will, perhaps the PA see that and push hard for ridiculous concessions and the leagues only choice is lockout though.