Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion - Less than 2 weeks to camp

[jrgtml67]

You'd save a lot of time if you just put Marner's awesome and there is no way you can cap his awesomeness because he oozes awesome

How anybody can write about Marner driving the line for Tavares with a straight face boggles the mind, Tavares was a point scoring franchise level 1C long before he got here and when you look back over both players scoring history Tavares wasn't the one with a massive scoring spike last season

If you want to say they made each other better I'm on board but give me a break

Umm ya because JT is a finisher and Bozak and JVR missed a ton of open nets. You watch the games if Marner is off that line pretty much didn't score. Someone has to be the playmaker, and that's Marner. Those games he wheels around and creates space, draws the defenders in leaving JT open? Ya but he doesn't drive the line.

 

[PromisedLand]

Lol I’m part of a cult now? Geez man you’re Marner love and Dubas hate is off the charts.

I’m not putting you on my ignore list but whenever I see Skeletor as the user AV I just move onto the next post. It feels like every one of your posts are the same, why should I continue to read the same thing only written 50 different ways?

Ohh high and might poster

All hail this guy because his thought process is the only right one everyone else is garbage.

Be careful he is going to put people on ignore; how am I gonna live now.....

 

[kb]

Ya because Boz and JVR couldn't finish. It doesnt mean Marner was held afloat by JT. It means his precision passing was being put in the net. How many times did Boz especially miss wide open nets when Marner found him wide open..a lot. JT is a finisher..hence why Marners assists went way up

You mean perennial 30 goal scorer JVR?

 

[PromisedLand]

My point is still this: Matthews, JT, and Willy are all signed to big money contracts already. There is not much cap left. If there was no cap, I wouldn't care if they payed him 20 million a year, but there is a cap. If he doesn't want to fit within our current structure, he can go. He can argue whatever he wants, but 5 years does not work for the Leafs either. Sorry for him he had to go last, them are the breaks.

Am not disagreeing with what you are saying; I have been saying that Marner's contract has to be 6 years so that he is up for renegotiations right when JT is off the books

This should have been the thought process and plan from Dubas as well but he goofed up big time.

Did you get a chance to watch teh Bobby Mac and Dubas interview today? Dubas sidestepped the Matthews contract completely when prompted by McKenzie; Dubas knows he effed up; of course he is not going to admit it but it is very clear from his body language that he did not want to address the question head on

 

[thewave]

Between Dubas Marner and Matthews, the 2019/20 season is going to cost us 3x 1st round picks +++

1 for Cap space
1 for Muzzin
1 for Barrie

This was all done so we can have about 10m ready to go for MM. How does next season go if nobody stays? More 1sts for cheap contracts? We can't afford UFAs.

Nobody wants to address this stuff the way it deserves. Just like some of you refused to accept scoring went up because of goalie equipment changes. Critical thinking skills people, smarten up

 

[kb]

Ya because Boz and JVR couldn't finish. It doesnt mean Marner was held afloat by JT. It means his precision passing was being put in the net. How many times did Boz especially miss wide open nets when Marner found him wide open..a lot. JT is a finisher..hence why Marners assists went way up

So he needs elite players so he can score at an elite rate. Thank you, that has been my point all along. He doesn't get elite point totals without playing with elite players.

Matthews doesn't need elite players. Which is why he gets paid more and deservedly so.

It's not that hard to understand. The Leafs would be paying top dollar for a player who is overly dependent on his linemates for his own point production.

 

[Matthews34]

if tavares or hyman can make plays like mitch and set up marner everyshift like he does the others then that would not be an issue.

may be you should write to babcock and ask tavares and hyman to carry the puck and make plays because apparently that is too easy....

Zach Hyman 40 points best season without Marner
Zach Hyman 41 points with Marner
John Tavares 86 points best season without Marner
John Tavares 88 points with Marner

Yes they both owe a huge debt to Marner for last years career seasons of 3 plus points combined. The pro Marner camp needs ease off anointing him the second coming of Wayne Gretzky!!!

 

[PromisedLand]

That's a big call in the Marner thread, let's no go down the cult route with how he's being defied by certain people around here

Nobody is calling Marner McDavid level player. But discounting what Marner brings to the team compared to Nylander; and the same posters praising nylander based on some fairy tale stat and saying 27 points is not a problem; while in the same breath say that Marner scoring 90+ points is nothing special because of tavares is short sighted and hypocritical.

Marner is a special talent and we need to lock him for at least 6 years. If he wants a 3 year bridge it has to be between 7 and 8 AAV; given Aho just signed for 8.5 AAV for 5 years;

All that said, the current situation leafs are facing is because of lack of foresight from Dubas; why is it that Dubas' moves cannot be questioned? Everytime someone critics Dubas; his supporters go on a rant; call the other posters troll or insinuate that they are not leafs fans. Why is Dubas' lack of foresight treated as "hands-off"? and there is continuous marner bashing by those posters in this thread; meanwhile these are same posters that vehemently defended both dubas and nylander till december 1st last year; and are still defending both of them even after the abysmal season from nylander.

Hypocrisy 101 from their posts right there

 

[thewave]

Zach Hyman 40 points best season without Marner
Zach Hyman 41 points with Marner
John Tavares 86 points best season without Marner
John Tavares 88 points with Marner

Yes they both owe a huge debt to Marner for last years career seasons of 3 plus points combined. The pro Marner camp needs ease off anointing him the second coming of Wayne Gretzky!!!

Deduct 10-15% of point totals for top tier players, because every good players totals went up when they gave them more net to shoot at with tender pad reductions. Do that and its all so much more unremarkable. Marner and Matthews are good players, not greats, not yet. Matthews could be a great goal scorer though, thats legit.

 

[PromisedLand]

Zach Hyman 40 points best season without Marner
Zach Hyman 41 points with Marner
John Tavares 86 points best season without Marner
John Tavares 88 points with Marner

Yes they both owe a huge debt to Marner for last years career seasons of 3 plus points combined. The pro Marner camp needs ease off anointing him the second coming of Wayne Gretzky!!!

Both Marner and Tavares had a terrible PP production last season thanks to the ridiculous coaching tactics from Hiller and Babcock.

If you isolate even strength production both Marner and Tavares had a monster year. Tavares had the best year ever in even strength production

5x5

Player	Season	Team	Position	GP	TOI	G	A	P	P1	P/60	P1/60
JOHN.TAVARES	2009-2010	NYI	C	81	1044.3	11	12	23	21	1.32	1.21
JOHN.TAVARES	2010-2011	NYI	C	79	1157.87	16	22	38	27	1.97	1.4
JOHN.TAVARES	2011-2012	NYI	C	82	1329.5	19	29	48	40	2.17	1.81
JOHN.TAVARES	2012-2013	NYI	C	48	775.28	17	10	27	26	2.09	2.01
JOHN.TAVARES	2013-2014	NYI	C	59	927.74	15	21	36	30	2.33	1.94
JOHN.TAVARES	2014-2015	NYI	C	82	1283.34	21	25	46	40	2.15	1.87
JOHN.TAVARES	2015-2016	NYI	C	78	1209.05	22	23	45	42	2.23	2.08
JOHN.TAVARES	2016-2017	NYI	C	77	1175.95	15	21	36	25	1.84	1.28
JOHN.TAVARES	2017-2018	NYI	C	82	1151.92	18	21	39	31	2.03	1.61
JOHN.TAVARES	2018-2019	TOR	C	82	1248.63	33	27	60	50	2.88	2.4

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Matthews34]

Nobody is calling Marner McDavid level player. But discounting what Marner brings to the team compared to Nylander; and the same posters praising nylander based on some fairy tale stat and saying 27 points is not a problem; while in the same breath say that Marner scoring 90+ points is nothing special because of tavares is short sighted and hypocritical.

Marner is a special talent and we need to lock him for at least 6 years. If he wants a 3 year bridge it has to be between 7 and 8 AAV; given Aho just signed for 8.5 AAV for 5 years;

All that said, the current situation leafs are facing is because of lack of foresight from Dubas; why is it that Dubas' moves cannot be questioned? Everytime someone critics Dubas; his supporters go on a rant; call the other posters troll or insinuate that they are not leafs fans. Why is Dubas' lack of foresight treated as "hands-off"? and there is continuous marner bashing by those posters in this thread; meanwhile these are same posters that vehemently defended both dubas and nylander till december 1st last year; and are still defending both of them even after the abysmal season from nylander.

Hypocrisy 101 from their posts right there

The logic in here is astonishing. Dubas screwed up the Matthews and Nylander contracts so the solution to the two contract screw ups is add a 3rd contract screw up in Marner???

 

[kb]

The logic in her is astonishing. Dubas screwed up the Matthews and Nylander contracts so the solution to the two contract screw ups is add a 3rd contract screw up in Marner???

Nope. It's only to hate on Dubas. Period. Even after this summer's moves.

I was fully expecting a down year heading into the summer. Now it's the best Leafs roster seen in the cap era.

 

[jrgtml67]

You mean perennial 30 goal scorer JVR?

Ya many of his were deflections on the PP

 

[Menzinger]

The logic in here is astonishing. Dubas screwed up the Matthews and Nylander contracts so the solution to the two contract screw ups is add a 3rd contract screw up in Marner???

It's a case of people trying to rationalize, however warped, that their favorite player needs to get whatever they want regardless of the consequences.

 

[jrgtml67]

So he needs elite players so he can score at an elite rate. Thank you, that has been my point all along. He doesn't get elite point totals without playing with elite players.

Matthews doesn't need elite players. Which is why he gets paid more and deservedly so.

It's not that hard to understand. The Leafs would be paying top dollar for a player who is overly dependent on his linemates for his own point production.

Wow. Hes a playmaker ...so the better the scorer/shooter is the more assists he will have. It's like if he and AM were on a line for an entire year, and AMs goals went up...maybe if that happened people would say see Marner is the gem. Jt set a career high in goals last season hmm wonder why

 

[thewave]

Both Marner and Tavares had a terrible PP production last season thanks to the ridiculous coaching tactics from Hiller and Babcock.

If you isolate even strength production both Marner and Tavares had a monster year. Tavares had the best year ever in even strength production

5x5

Player	Season	Team	Position	GP	TOI	G	A	P	P1	P/60	P1/60
JOHN.TAVARES	2009-2010	NYI	C	81	1044.3	11	12	23	21	1.32	1.21
JOHN.TAVARES	2010-2011	NYI	C	79	1157.87	16	22	38	27	1.97	1.4
JOHN.TAVARES	2011-2012	NYI	C	82	1329.5	19	29	48	40	2.17	1.81
JOHN.TAVARES	2012-2013	NYI	C	48	775.28	17	10	27	26	2.09	2.01
JOHN.TAVARES	2013-2014	NYI	C	59	927.74	15	21	36	30	2.33	1.94
JOHN.TAVARES	2014-2015	NYI	C	82	1283.34	21	25	46	40	2.15	1.87
JOHN.TAVARES	2015-2016	NYI	C	78	1209.05	22	23	45	42	2.23	2.08
JOHN.TAVARES	2016-2017	NYI	C	77	1175.95	15	21	36	25	1.84	1.28
JOHN.TAVARES	2017-2018	NYI	C	82	1151.92	18	21	39	31	2.03	1.61
JOHN.TAVARES	2018-2019	TOR	C	82	1248.63	33	27	60	50	2.88	2.4

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

He had a great year but adjust that 10-15% of 60pts and its more like 51pts, not so drastic compared to his 2012 2016 and 2017 seasons. There were no miracles, more net was open to shooters. The world didn't change, its all easy peasy to explain... Ultimately.. MM is not worth a damn penny more than Aho.

 

[PromisedLand]

The logic in here is astonishing. Dubas screwed up the Matthews and Nylander contracts so the solution to the two contract screw ups is add a 3rd contract screw up in Marner???

Nope; if you have to you trade Nylander to make Marner's cap work. You don't dump on players like Marner. Dubas screwed up and he has to own up his mistakes and make the right moves that benefits the team.

What about a deal between 7 and 8 AAV on a 3 year or a 6 year deal is apparently screwing up the 3rd contract? Basically you want Marner to get bent over while both nylander and matthews get the preferential treatment from the management? for what? 27 pt seasons and not being able to play full 82 games last couple seasons?

 

[thewave]

Wow. Hes a playmaker ...so the better the scorer/shooter is the more assists he will have. It's like if he and AM were on a line for an entire year, and AMs goals went up...maybe if that happened people would say see Marner is the gem. Jt set a career high in goals last season hmm wonder why

One reason is he had like 10% more net to shoot at with padding reductions. Like that happened over the past couple years eh.

 

[PromisedLand]

He had a great year but adjust that 10-15% of 60pts and its more like 51pts, not so drastic compared to his 2012 2016 and 2017 seasons. There were no miracles, more net was open to shooters. The world didn't change, its all easy peasy to explain... Ultimately.. MM is not worth a damn penny more than Aho.

I see your thought process; that is what I had initially said like months ago. Scoring has been up significantly in the league because of NHL rules change

- smaller goalie equipment
- icing rules change
- more space behind the net
- stricter penalties on slashing
etc...

paying matthews 11.6 for 5 years from Dubas was the begning of the mess the leafs are currently in and will be in the foreseeable future when both muzzin and barrie are gone as UFAs; Dermott is up for a new contract; and then Freddie and Rielly are up for other contracts.

There is going to be a cap casualty that would result in roster move. Leafs are already down two first round picks in Dubas' regime and they have a first round exit to show for results.

Dubas should have signed the guys last summer and he didn't. Blame Dubas for lack of foresight

 

[Menzinger]

Give Marner 9.6x6 and he becomes the 3rd highest winger aav in the world.

The amount of mental gymnastics in this thread trying to spin this as anything other than overwhelmingly fair to Marner is madness

 

[JT AM da real deal]

No need to scrap it out. Mitch fits in behind Matty and Tavares and he is well ahead of Willy. Whatever the AAV and term is who really cares. Too many people worried about nothing here. My guess was from day 1 and I stick to it is 10.5M for 6 years although I believe it should be 10.5M for 8 years. I think all of them have been overpaid but you can't put the screws to Mitch after everyone else got theirs.

 

[Matthews34]

Nope; if you have to you trade Nylander to make Marner's cap work. You don't dump on players like Marner. Dubas screwed up and he has to own up his mistakes and make the right moves that benefits the team.

What about a deal between 7 and 8 AAV on a 3 year or a 6 year deal is apparently screwing up the 3rd contract? Basically you want Marner to get bent over while both nylander and matthews get the preferential treatment from the management? for what? 27 pt seasons and not being able to play full 82 games last couple seasons?

The 3rd screw up would be caving into insane Marner's 11.5 million demands. The somewhere between Aho and Kucherov contacts is where Marner should fall anything more is a screw up. If Nylander's contract is deemed an over pay he should be traded but not so you can over pay market value on Marner. Matthews is a hope and pray situation that he lives up to the money and doesn't walk at the end of his contract. You don't trade franchise centres even if they are over paid. High scoring wingers are dime a dozen you can survive trading then ie. Kessel.

 

[glue]

Man the amount of bias or lack of objectivity in 90% of these posts here is hilarious. It’s either Marner is a greedy a-hole! Dubas is incompetent! Matthews is going to leave! All Babcocks fault! Nylander is garbage!! OR the exact opposite were those individuals don’t shoulder any/enough blame and are near perfect! Lol

There’s definitely a combination of all those aspects, but not nearly as one sided as is argued between a lot of folks here. I will also say this, As a fan of the ‘Team’ it is definitely easy to get frustrated with players when they’re holding out or asking for what we think is too much -especially when we see other good teams signing their players to seemingly more reasonable deals. But we simply don’t know the full story, 95% of the time it’s pure speculation and the math and projections behind some of the stuff we really don’t know. Eg. Even I At a glance, seeing Matthews on a 5 year term when someone like Mcdavid got 8 for just slightly more, looks bad to me. Makes both Matthews seem greedy and Dubas look like he doesn’t know what he’s doing. But I also am not arrogant enough to conclude that Dubas is an idiot and shitty GM! And Matthews wants to leave in 5 years!! Haha. Dubas has also done a bunch of good things as well- trades he’s made, clearing cap space, some good signings (cap efficiency) etc.
Matthews May want to get paid and not take any discount whatsoever, but he also wanted to sign for 8 years and wants to be this teams Captain. He’s literally only ever said how much playing for this franchise means. I have no reason to think this is some ploy for him to leave Toronto in 5 years. I would bet more money on him signing an 8 year extension to stay with Toronto in 5 years then leave.

 

[jrgtml67]

One reason is he had like 10% more net to shoot at with padding reductions. Like that happened over the past couple years eh.

So did everyone else. I'm not going to keep arguing. Jt is elite, Marner is elite, they have good chemistry. The whole point of the thread is to debate when, and how much his next contract will be.

Ranked with the forwards we have hes top 3. Hes missed only a couple games in his career. AM has missed over 20 twice..and to that notion I'm sure his point totals rise if he were healthy for 82 games. But this about what Marner is worth.

So between he and Nylander who would you pick if we had to trade one? Nylander is the easy answer. Marner brings too much talent and intangibles to the room as said by our GM and rival coaches, players and GMs. He deserves a big $ deal. While I agree centers are worth more because of pure position and their responsibilities on the ice, Marner still deserves a big pay day. Also the landscape is changing, which is why there are what 5 to 7 high profile Rfas that haven't signed. Sports are ever changing.

Baseball for example, was a gentleman's game. Now there are many boisterous players that are very enthusiastic and the games different, even with there contracts its different

 

[IPS]

Deduct 10-15% of point totals for top tier players, because every good players totals went up when they gave them more net to shoot at with tender pad reductions. Do that and its all so much more unremarkable. Marner and Matthews are good players, not greats, not yet. Matthews could be a great goal scorer though, thats legit.

Yup, the inflation of league scoring that apparently can't be adjusted for by our management team.

Scoring at ES hasn't been this easy in a very long time. Goalie changes, icing change and 3 on 3 OT has gone a tremendously long way towards inflating a bunch of grade B superstars' point totals. Who woulda thought in a million freaking years that a player like Johnathon Huberdeau could achieve 90+ points?

Never would have imagined those changes to league scoring would end up f***ing our cap situation so badly.