Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion - Less than 2 weeks to camp

[WTFMAN99]

You can thank Tavares for some of that. On his own without a finisher, he gets nowhere near 94 points. Don't pay him based on being propped up by an elite C. Plus he's a 22 goals, 87 point player if you take away the empty net scoring.

Scoring was up league wide this year as well, forget the % but it's up.

 

[Matthews34]

Just who had more points. JT or Marner. Marner right so who inflated who’s stats. JT had more goals then assists for the first time ever as he had a superior talent then himself playing with him.

Marner was 3rd on the team in scoring. He was 1st in points and assists. Funny thing about assists is you can't get them with a goal being scored which the opposite isn't true about goals.

 

[supermann_98]

I'm not very impressed that all of our young star players seem to be money first, team second kind of guys, many here will argue that this is the norm but I don't see it like that. Its getting harder and harder to be attached to players in this league when they blatantly care more about a few million more $$ than a shot at becoming a god and winning a cup. Because Mitch Marner's life will be so much different with 12 million in his pocket every year vs 9 million.

These are the kind of athletes we want our children to look up to? time to tell the kids their favourite players don't give a crap about them or their support as fans. BARF.

Agreed, and as excited I was about drafting all these future superstars at the time I’m equally disappointed that they all care more about money than they do about ensuring the team around them can be competitive for multiple Stanley Cup runs.

I really don’t like any of these guys to be honest, not in any way close to the way I felt about Wendel and Dougie and even Sundin. Money hungry mercenaries who haven’t proven they can even get out of the first round. Very disappointing

 

[Cleetus]

He got 94 points playing predominantly with Tavares. So let's pump the brakes on Marner's production and give credit to someone who has inflated the stats of his linemates since he entered the NHL. Switch Marner and Matthews' linemates, and see who does better.

that goes both ways, the amount of time that Marner set up tap in's for his linemates, but I guess you don't see that you only see what you want to see I suppose, but you reasoning that empty net points do not count had me laughing lol.

 

[PromisedLand]

JT produced the same amount of points he usually does, while Marner's point totals went up significantly.

people use that as if tavares spoonfed marner

marner outproduced tavares; tavares and marner's pp production was pathetic; if they had scored even their career average on PP production both would have cracked 100 points.

Name the last winger that Tavares played with that out produced Tavares.

You guys are selling Marner short. I am not calling you out but your argument takes the same line as the arguments presented by the dubas cult that nylander's so called underlying stats were so good that one should overlook the abysmal 27 pt production because he was a lot better than that - apparently he was like a top5 something in some fairy-tale stat

with marner you have concrete production. And it is not like Marner has peeked already.... He is going to crack the 100 pts barrier sooner or later.

If I had to bet among all the Leafs who cracks the 100 points barrier first it would be Marner easily. That kind of potential is not easy to find in the NHL; we got something special here lets not discount marner so fast.

Cassidy always talks about how Bruins plan to play against Marner

hell Cooper called him one of the smartest players ever in NHL



Unlike lazy willy who is pretty good with the puck but is pretty lazy without the puck; marner plays 200 foot game, competes, is always on the puck (with or without the puck) and puts up huge points.

Do you know how much Marner would have scored last season if he didn't have to play against oppositions' top lines? He probably would be top 5 in scoring if he only focused on offense and forgot about defense.

 

[jrgtml67]

Scoring was up league wide this year as well, forget the % but it's up.

So funny..Marner was held up by JT? Anyone watch the damn games. Marner drives that line, JT doesnt score that many without him, same as Marner gets less without JT. Marner still got over 60pts with friggin Boz and JVR..give me a break.

This is why Marners had enough. His whole career it was other guys apparently and his game wouldn't ever translate to the next level. Each time he proved people wrong. Especially many saying after junior no way he would pull his moves in the NHL because he'd be hammered, etc..yet to ever see that. Everyone's just upset he isn't signed. Well there's 5 to 7 other RFAs that haven't and 2 are very close to Marner and what he brings..Raatenen and Connor. He will get done and I believe itll be between Sept 12 and the season. If he misses a couple weeks of stupid pre season oh well. Most vets say it's too long they need about a week to get going, maybe a bit more..so for me if hes back for 2 weeks perfect.

 

[Fogelhund]

You can thank Tavares for some of that. On his own without a finisher, he gets nowhere near 94 points. Don't pay him based on being propped up by an elite C. Plus he's a 22 goals, 87 point player if you take away the empty net scoring.

Is there going to be any real different in paying a 87 vs. 94 point player?

Having said that, there are a ton of players that scored with an Empty net, and against an empty net. Should they be discounted too, though really, it looks like it all balances out.

 

[WTFMAN99]

So funny..Marner was held up by JT? Anyone watch the damn games. Marner drives that line, JT doesnt score that many without him, same as Marner gets less without JT. Marner still got over 60pts with friggin Boz and JVR..give me a break.

This is why Marners had enough. His whole career it was other guys apparently and his game wouldn't ever translate to the next level. Each time he proved people wrong. Especially many saying after junior no way he would pull his moves in the NHL because he'd be hammered, etc..yet to ever see that. Everyone's just upset he isn't signed. Well there's 5 to 7 other RFAs that haven't and 2 are very close to Marner and what he brings..Raatenen and Connor. He will get done and I believe itll be between Sept 12 and the season. If he misses a couple weeks of stupid pre season oh well. Most vets say it's too long they need about a week to get going, maybe a bit more..so for me if hes back for 2 weeks perfect.

Look at it this way, JT carried scrubs and only increased his career high by 2 pts. Marner's point totals jumped by 25 pts. Tavares has hit 80ish points before, Marner hasn't sniffed 90 pts without Tavares.

 

[PromisedLand]

Marner was 3rd on the team in scoring. He was 1st in points and assists. Funny thing about assists is you can't get them with a goal being scored which the opposite isn't true about goals.

if tavares or hyman can make plays like mitch and set up marner everyshift like he does the others then that would not be an issue.

may be you should write to babcock and ask tavares and hyman to carry the puck and make plays because apparently that is too easy....

 

[supermann_98]

the hypocrisy in your posts never ceases to amaze me

your continuous rants on looking at marner and nylander points for two seasons averaging about 60ish points

but when it comes to kerfoot and kadri comparison you only want to look at "one" year? LOL

Kadri>>Kerfoot based on Kadri's career totals

It sickens me the lengths Dubas cult will go to defend dubas' moves

Toronto is a great city; except it has its own crazys and cultists like any other sports cities. example: we have a dubas cult who thinks dubas can do no wrong and one should not critic dubas at all

Your act is getting really old really fast

 

[PromisedLand]

Your act is getting really old really fast

well a cult is a cult; and there is a dubas cult on this board; may be you are part of it and point fingers at people who call it out

 

[Kiwi]

So funny..Marner was held up by JT? Anyone watch the damn games. Marner drives that line, JT doesnt score that many without him, same as Marner gets less without JT. Marner still got over 60pts with friggin Boz and JVR..give me a break.

This is why Marners had enough. His whole career it was other guys apparently and his game wouldn't ever translate to the next level. Each time he proved people wrong. Especially many saying after junior no way he would pull his moves in the NHL because he'd be hammered, etc..yet to ever see that. Everyone's just upset he isn't signed. Well there's 5 to 7 other RFAs that haven't and 2 are very close to Marner and what he brings..Raatenen and Connor. He will get done and I believe itll be between Sept 12 and the season. If he misses a couple weeks of stupid pre season oh well. Most vets say it's too long they need about a week to get going, maybe a bit more..so for me if hes back for 2 weeks perfect.

You'd save a lot of time if you just put Marner's awesome and there is no way you can cap his awesomeness because he oozes awesome

How anybody can write about Marner driving the line for Tavares with a straight face boggles the mind, Tavares was a point scoring franchise level 1C long before he got here and when you look back over both players scoring history Tavares wasn't the one with a massive scoring spike last season

If you want to say they made each other better I'm on board but give me a break

 

[thewave]

Every time team accomplishments (or lack thereof) are brought up when discussing contracts for individual players, I just roll my eyes. Can you figure out why that is?

He did nothing in the PO to deserve 10m+ just like Matthews as a RFA has not met the performance to make 11.6m. If the Nylander contract ends up being the best we have, good luck forming an internal cap structure that makes winning mid to long term even possible. The CBA miracle is our only shot, if the recession I have been talking about for two years equals a decline in cap, we are offloading and buying out players.

BTW, individuals making 10m+ better be game breakers or else they don't deserve the money, my point.

 

[Suntouchable13]

people use that as if tavares spoonfed marner

marner outproduced tavares; tavares and marner's pp production was pathetic; if they had scored even their career average on PP production both would have cracked 100 points.

Name the last winger that Tavares played with that out produced Tavares.

You guys are selling Marner short. I am not calling you out but your argument takes the same line as the arguments presented by the dubas cult that nylander's so called underlying stats were so good that one should overlook the abysmal 27 pt production because he was a lot better than that - apparently he was like a top5 something in some fairy-tale stat

with marner you have concrete production. And it is not like Marner has peeked already.... He is going to crack the 100 pts barrier sooner or later.

If I had to bet among all the Leafs who cracks the 100 points barrier first it would be Marner easily. That kind of potential is not easy to find in the NHL; we got something special here lets not discount marner so fast.

Cassidy always talks about how Bruins plan to play against Marner

hell Cooper called him one of the smartest players ever in NHL



Unlike lazy willy who is pretty good with the puck but is pretty lazy without the puck; marner plays 200 foot game, competes, is always on the puck (with or without the puck) and puts up huge points.

Do you know how much Marner would have scored last season if he didn't have to play against oppositions' top lines? He probably would be top 5 in scoring if he only focused on offense and forgot about defense.

My point is still this: Matthews, JT, and Willy are all signed to big money contracts already. There is not much cap left. If there was no cap, I wouldn't care if they payed him 20 million a year, but there is a cap. If he doesn't want to fit within our current structure, he can go. He can argue whatever he wants, but 5 years does not work for the Leafs either. Sorry for him he had to go last, them are the breaks.

 

[FMichael]

thats pretty cool story man.....

Yeah - I'll never forget the smell - like a musty old place with a fresh coat of paint...Looking at the bolts that held the railing to the concrete steps - was painted over a dozen plus times...No wonder the doors were wide open in the front off Carlton ST.

 

[Kiwi]

well a cult is a cult; and there is a dubas cult on this board; may be you are part of it and point fingers at people who call it out

That's a big call in the Marner thread, let's no go down the cult route with how he's being defied by certain people around here

 

[Fogelhund]

Scoring was up league wide this year as well, forget the % but it's up.

Scoring was up league wide this year as well, forget the % but it's up.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

	2018-19	NHL	1271	3.01

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

	2017-18	NHL	1271	2.97
	2016-17	NHL	1230	2.77
	2015-16	NHL	1230	2.71

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Year, Total Games played, Goals per game.

 

[kb]

Is there going to be any real different in paying a 87 vs. 94 point player?

Having said that, there are a ton of players that scored with an Empty net, and against an empty net. Should they be discounted too, though really, it looks like it all balances out.

That was only a small part of my point. The biggest point was that he played with an elite C and his totals were already inflated before taking into consideration who he played with.

 

[supermann_98]

well a cult is a cult; and there is a dubas cult on this board; may be you are part of it and point fingers at people who call it out

Lol I’m part of a cult now? Geez man you’re Marner love and Dubas hate is off the charts.

I’m not putting you on my ignore list but whenever I see Skeletor as the user AV I just move onto the next post. It feels like every one of your posts are the same, why should I continue to read the same thing only written 50 different ways?

 

[Fogelhund]

That's a big call in the Marner thread, let's no go down the cult route with how he's being defied by certain people around here

You could make an equal argument, that there is a cult of people, who argue that management could do no right, even if they won the cup.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Nylander scored at the same rate, only ended up a +1 in the playoffs rather then a -4.
Of course, one had weaker linemates and probably weaker Quality of Opposition as well.
But they were on the same team, so why should Marner be handed a contract based on playing
pond hockey during the regular season alone. Marner looked entertaining, I know that counts
for something. Look at Kapanen speeding along with his two career assists being put on
the first line last season. It's not always about the numbers.

He did nothing in the PO to deserve 10m+ just like Matthews as a RFA has not met the performance to make 11.6m. If the Nylander contract ends up being the best we have, good luck forming an internal cap structure that makes winning mid to long term even possible. The CBA miracle is our only shot, if the recession I have been talking about for two years equals a decline in cap, we are offloading and buying out players.

BTW, individuals making 10m+ better be game breakers or else they don't deserve the money, my point.

What I said was that quoting team accomplishments (or lack thereof) in contract discussions for individual players is dumb. None of what you guys posted here contradicts this (or even addresses this for that matter).

If you're going to quote me, at least address what I said or you're just wasting time, thanks.

 

[thewave]

My point is still this: Matthews, JT, and Willy are all signed to big money contracts already. There is not much cap left. If there was no cap, I wouldn't care if they payed him 20 million a year, but there is a cap. If he doesn't want to fit within our current structure, he can go. He can argue whatever he wants, but 5 years does not work for the Leafs either. Sorry for him he had to go last, them are the breaks.

On 6 years..
6.5 WN
8.5 MM
9.5 AM

You want to +/- that 500k, fine. Then only Nylander fits in the reasonable category. AM got way to much and MM looks to want the same.

Can't build a team with the current numbers. Not one that can win without rentals using 1sts on good contracts.

 

[DarkKnight]

Because some believe the big season may have been a mirage. And those people are entitled to their opinion just like anyone else.
Take away the Marner empty net production, and it's 22 goals and 87 points, or less than Matthews pace where he had to do it mostly on his own without a Tavares calibre player.

Wow, empty net production? So you mean the coach has him out on the ice to protect leads? Exactly.

 

[jrgtml67]

Look at it this way, JT carried scrubs and only increased his career high by 2 pts. Marner's point totals jumped by 25 pts. Tavares has hit 80ish points before, Marner hasn't sniffed 90 pts without Tavares.

Ya because Boz and JVR couldn't finish. It doesnt mean Marner was held afloat by JT. It means his precision passing was being put in the net. How many times did Boz especially miss wide open nets when Marner found him wide open..a lot. JT is a finisher..hence why Marners assists went way up

 

[Kiwi]

You could make an equal argument, that there is a cult of people, who argue that management could do no right, even if they won the cup.

Things have gotten polarized, Management has done a decent job but the high end RFA negotiations haven't gone well which is a serious problem

If this contract sucks I'm going to be hard pressed not to call for heads to roll, they need to show their learning from their mistakes