- Dec 12, 2017
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One legged Hedman?
Despite Vasi’s implosion, TB probably wins that series if the two D aren’t hurting.
Tribute Marner Appreciation Thread
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Despite Vasi’s implosion, TB probably wins that series if the two D aren’t hurting.
Hedman wasn't very good even when he wasn't injured last year.
It's pretty rich to be making injury excuses for Tampa when we had injured/missing players too, and Tampa got handed every other advantage in that series. Not to mention the garbage injury luck we've had throughout the years. Unsurprisingly, the best players in the series were on the Leafs.
"LEAFS SHOULD HAVE BLOWN IT UP AFTER THE MONTREAL SERIES!!!!! WHO CARES IF YOU LOST ONE OF YOUR BEST PLAYERS!!!"
"Tampa would have won if they weren't so injured"
Ok sure Tampa's injuries aren't an excuse. What was the excuse for us getting notably outplayed in 5 out of 6 games?
From the way the play went we got VERY lucky to win that series.
From the way the play went we got VERY lucky to win that series.
therealkoho
Him/Leaf/fan
there were a lot of guys vying for that title in that game
it doesn't excuse any of them nor does it excuse Marner, it's hard to give it all you got if you're the only one giving
Don't forget what sub you're under. The title is right there. Take your tampa conversation to the tampa series sub if you can't stick to topic
He was not. I've provided a lot of comparisons, including one that you just responded to, but the problem with saying show me a direct comparable with a similar pre-signing period and X contract with X term is that that doesn't really exist, especially recently among wingers. Not because Marner is overpaid, but because Marner as a player is quite unique even within the rare group of high-end young forwards in the cap era, and both Marner's pre-signing period and contract fall in a bit of a dead zone - not quite at the top top tier of a handful of generational players, but pretty easily a clear step above pretty much everybody else, with Rantanen being the only winger even remotely close to come along in a decade.
The closest contracts to Marner are Vanek and Heatley, but I assume you don't want me doing that comparison, because it would just make Marner look good, and I'm sure you'll argue that Vanek was an offer sheet and Heatley was so long ago. We could look at Kovalchuk and Nash, who got bigger contracts than Marner too, but same thing, right? Just makes Marner look good. So we step down a tier and look at the likes of Rantanen/Kane, which I've shown a number of times, but people refuse to accept the clear and obvious gap that existed between them and Marner that's consistent with their contracts, because they don't think Marner's lead in P/GP over their ELCs is enough, and they refuse to acknowledge the impacts of PP time (which those players got pumped full of) on that raw production, that's inflating the perception of their relative quality.
So I'm open to looking at whatever comparisons you want, but it's got to come with an acceptance that raw points don't always tell the full story of offensive impact, and like anybody else in his position, Marner was never going to and should not be expected to not get compensated appropriately relative to his offensive impact just because he came up in an era of low special teams time, on a team that got abnormally low special teams time, under a coach that intentionally tried to neuter his production as he mentally abused him.
i just did this with Matthews in the matthews thread - but regarding Marner's post ELC contract when compared to other notable names such as shown below. The AVERAGE between all these players for primary point production per game (based on their real 5on5 ice time per game stats) was 0.34 primary points per game (including marner). Marner's was 23% higher than the average at .44/game. This put him at 3rd amonst all these players at production over the mean (only behind robertson and eberle). in terms of capt hit % per primary point, Marner's post ELC put him tied for 11th cheapest out of 30 at 0.37% Cap Hit per primary point. so in the middle of pay / top 3 in production.
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Did you include quality of linemates? For instance with Keller... Is Schmaltz and Garland comparable to Matthews/Bunting and Tavares/Hyman and sometimes Tavares/Matthews?
In 2019 Matthews produced 37 goals and 73 points with Kapanen, Marleau and Johnsson as his primary wingers. Which happens to still be the most productive seasons by Kapanen and Johnsson, in what was basically their rookie seasons. Matthews had a 45 goal, 88 point pace with Marleau, Kapanen and Johnsson.
Kessel played many years with Jvr and Bozak as his primary linemates.
Rick nash? He played on very bad team's in Columbus.
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no i didn't use that and that is why i went with averages first - i only have so much time to work on these personal interest things hehe.. but i mean for every keller that suffers due to linemates/team quality you have Brady Tkachuk who 8th in production above average in this group, or taylor hall in those dumpster edmonton years was 5th, eberle 2nd...
Notsince67
Papi and the Lamplighters
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What is the correlation coefficient of QoT for primary points production... exactly or are u just blowing farts into everyone's face
i'm not really trying to be on either side of this argument, but jesus that made me laugh - first time i've seen that one good stuff. that and the 'jousting with a windmill' i saw yesterday over on the nucks board couple solid days haha
Arzak
Registered User
- Mar 27, 2019
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You can always go with your linemates' combined cap hit.
Otherwise, it will be hard to give you an EXACT correlation coefficient,
which by your logic proves the linemates don't matter and the op was indeed blowing farts in your face?
That would likely only help Marner. I think you're underestimating the kind of linemates that top end young players often get, and overestimating the relative line quality of a player who was irrationally kept away from the team's best producers for most of their sample, even on the PP, and who's most common linemate was Bozak.
Notsince67
Papi and the Lamplighters
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Linemates matter but I dislike someone's nonchalant challenge to others to show data that reflects it without offering it up themselves. It's lazy and dumb.
The real answer is that there isn't a measureable correlation because it varies based on style. Crosby always had great numbers with everyone but the lift was marginal because he is the line driver. This can easily be verified by watching him over the years. I suspect the correlation is driven up on goal scorers over primary assist guys.
Sure...make the argument but don't demand data from others to prove your own hypothesis when u have no clue how it would be done. Source out or derrive your own work if you have the chops. At the end of the day, what is meaningful anyways...5%? ...10%?
An argument of the margins and the likelihood of a small impact driven by QoT effecting a conclusion is an improvement to such lofty requests.
At the end of the day, if a player has a history of lifting players to career years, you don't have much to work with.
Your comment is full of hypocrisy.
First I said... "did you include quality of linemates"...it wasn't a challenge at all, it was a question. As you have now admitted, quality of linemates matter. And I was merely pointing it out. Lazy?
I them explained with stats that I researched, that Matthews primarily played with Johnsson, Kapanen and Marleau. While Marner the same year played primarily with human and Tavares. Despite the large difference in skill level of linemates, Matthews still paced 46 goals and 88.
Now let's address your non chalant lazy comments:
"At the end of the day, what is meaningful anyways...5%? ...10%?"
Are these lazy challenges? Maybe you should figure it out?
"At the end of the day, if a player has a history of lifting players to career years, you don't have much to work with."
Where is your evidence that Marner lifted players to career years? This seems very "lazy" to me. Tavares had a history of lifting players to career years himself. If you put two players with histories of lifting players to career years on a line together.... Who gets credit for lifting the other to a career year? Are you prepared to do the research for your statement? Or are you the only one allowed to blow smoke up others asses?
Looks like you got some work to do, your comments don't meet your own expectations.
Gary Nylund
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There a were a number of players who played poorly that game but Marner was the worst of them all.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here but IMHO, there is no excuse for a supposedly elite player playing as poorly as Marner did in that game. No excuse, none whatsoever.
saffronleaf
Registered User
Notsince67
Papi and the Lamplighters
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well now....a bit crusty I see.
Remamber this?
No. Matthews > Tavares > Nylander > Marner.
Is Marner the best player on the Leafs?
Marner was amazing, but he wasn’t better than Matthews for the bulk of last season. Matthews scored at a higher pace, in tougher minutes, a tougher position, and scored more goals despite playing less games. Matthews is awesome. His talent is huge. In my experience, talent isn't what anyone...
Gary Nylund
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You forgot to mention that this post you quoted was from 2018 and at the time, this was a completely reasonable POV.well now....a bit crusty I see.
Remamber this?
No. Matthews > Tavares > Nylander > Marner.
Is Marner the best player on the Leafs?
Marner was amazing, but he wasn’t better than Matthews for the bulk of last season. Matthews scored at a higher pace, in tougher minutes, a tougher position, and scored more goals despite playing less games. Matthews is awesome. His talent is huge. In my experience, talent isn't what anyone...forums.hfboards.com
Digging up posts from 5 years ago smacks of desperation and quoting them without that "5 years ago" context is just pathetic.
I think it’s a hard argument to try to make that Marner has ever been the only guy trying to make a difference. I don’t think that’s true for any of our guys.
With that said, I’m sick and tired of people around here choosing their personal core 4 whipping boy. We have camps for all 4 and they are all annoying as hell
Gary Nylund
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Just as annoying are the ones with their own personal superheroes, usually Marner or Matthews. Makes sense I guess that they'd be the ones singled out (for both the good and the bad), easily the most polarizing players on the team. IMHO they deserve the most blame because they make the most money and neither has played up their cap hit in the playoffs but maybe that's just me.
To be fair, they're both really good in the regular season and that's when they play closer to their cap hits so maybe it's fair to say they deserve the most credit for our regular season successes, but also the most blame for our playoff failures.
ULF_55
Moderator
marner is in a good position.
He has another 2 years to prove he's a winner before he needs a new contract.
The fact he'll be 3 years removed from Tkachuk's deal will likely stop people from pointing at that Tkachuk deal and saying why does he deserve more than someone who helped carry his team to the Finals.
He has another 2 years to prove he's a winner before he needs a new contract.
The fact he'll be 3 years removed from Tkachuk's deal will likely stop people from pointing at that Tkachuk deal and saying why does he deserve more than someone who helped carry his team to the Finals.
Notsince67
Papi and the Lamplighters
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Uh huh. Funny stuff. Being wrong is reasonable. Maybe you should look up some of us who were right and call us unreasonable then.
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