Tribute Marner Appreciation Thread

[Notsince67]

weird take but okay

Is it really that difficult to understand that he's currently living up to his contract? Quick tip. The key word here is currently.

Quick tip...if he is living up to his contract then there aren't any gatekeepers...just trolls

 

[Aashir]

How is the dude on a 18 game point streak and still being hated on for past playoff woes. Those two things aren’t related…

You can find faults in his playoff antics and can also appreciate his success. Those aren’t mutually exclusive. Makes no sense to bring playoffs up now

 

[Gary Nylund]

I‘m just glad to have not boxed myself into a corner so much that I can’t just enjoy the moments. The guy is probably going to be bronzed one day and people here act like he’s just figuring it out, it’s hilarious. Look, listen to the former players and coaches, they see what a rare, all around talent he, the ankle biters here are frankly clueless. It’s social media, we all jammer, but it isn’t serious and I find the Marner haters the most confirming of that view. Again, his number is likely raised and we still have these bored guys stuck in a dead end job who can’t even see what he is, it’s ignorant really.

Every guy on this team has something to prove, Marner isn’t different. Also true, he‘s perhaps the best player at his position in the game, literally 200 ft of impact, even strength, power play and penalty kill, the total package. I couldn’t be happier to be his fan boy, I’ve been it since he started and love watching him.

Figuring it out perhaps isn't the best term, but people are noticing that he's taken his game up a notch, he's growing up, whatever term you want to use. He seems to be a much better player than he was say 2 years ago and there's nothing wrong with saying so.

Every guy on the team has something to prove - absolutely true. Strange that some people get so angry when people say Marner has something to prove - he does, just like the rest of them, like you just said.

Best player at his position, maybe. I think Marner, Kuch, Pasta and Ranta are all pretty close, I'm just happy to have a player on our team that belongs in the conversation. The others have shown a lot more than Marner in the playoffs and playoffs are pretty darn important so that's a thing. I can be over the moon happy that Marner is on our team, I just don't feel the need to brag about how he's "the best". Maybe when all those guys are done with their careers it will be an interesting discussion (and hopefully Marner will have a better playoff resume by then) but it's way too early ATM. JMHO. Hope I haven't said anything to upset you.

Mitch is a helluva player, like another poster said he might be a top 20 player all-time when he's done so would be a shame if people didn't enjoy watching him (and Matthews) when they have the chance. 6 1st round exits sucks, but I try to shake off the depression by the time the season starts and enjoy. And hopefully 6 is where the streak ends, you never know, this could be the year. And I don't mean just the year we win a round, I mean we finally win multiple rounds.

 

[Gabriel426]

Figuring it out perhaps isn't the best term, but people are noticing that he's taken his game up a notch, he's growing up, whatever term you want to use. He seems to be a much better player than he was say 2 years ago and there's nothing wrong with saying so.

Every guy on the team has something to prove - absolutely true. Strange that some people get so angry when people say Marner has something to prove - he does, just like the rest of them, like you just said.

Best player at his position, maybe. I think Marner, Kuch, Pasta and Ranta are all pretty close, I'm just happy to have a player on our team that belongs in the conversation. The others have shown a lot more than Marner in the playoffs and playoffs are pretty darn important so that's a thing. I can be over the moon happy that Marner is on our team, I just don't feel the need to brag about how he's "the best". Maybe when all those guys are done with their careers it will be an interesting discussion (and hopefully Marner will have a better playoff resume by then) but it's way too early ATM. JMHO. Hope I haven't said anything to upset you.

Mitch is a helluva player, like another poster said he might be a top 20 player all-time when he's done so would be a shame if people didn't enjoy watching him (and Matthews) when they have the chance. 6 1st round exits sucks, but I try to shake off the depression by the time the season starts and enjoy. And hopefully 6 is where the streak ends, you never know, this could be the year. And I don't mean just the year we win a round, I mean we finally win multiple rounds.

MM is better than Ranta, to me, Ranta is just a bigger and less creative version of MM.
Pasta is a scorer and is one of the few in the league who can score like AM.
Kuch is scary bc he seems quite quiet but when you look up the stats, he is top in the league. Kind of like Robertson, who could win the Rocket and Hart without people noticing.

 

[Altair]

I have to admit. I'm ashamed. I was hoping for a shake-up of the core with a Marner trade. But he's been insane lately! I hope he keeps it up and brings this game to the playoffs!!

 

[Antropovsky]

Yes, that is the play. That isn't a hail mary pass. That's a flip to clear the zone, and it happens all the time. Matthews likely would have received it if he didn't trip backwards.

I noticed that Marner pushed him to the outside and slowed him down, and unfortunately his stick whipped out of his hands. I then noticed a whole bunch of other things go wrong to lead to the eventual goal, and yet you're here pinning it all on Marner.

You're missing the point. Even the "best of the best" see production fluctuate, and even they go through these exact same kind of stretches in the playoffs. It doesn't mean he's not the player he's proven to be. It doesn't mean he's not going to produce in future playoff series. It doesn't even mean he's playing badly in those games. We don't define Marner by his production in some cherry picked playoff sample, just as we don't define Crosby by his production in some cherry-picked playoff sample.

He had an injury years prior, was fully back before that sample, and had no trouble pacing for 128 and 107 point seasons in the regular season.

....so it wasn't a pass, it was a clearing attempt? But a clearing attempt that Matthews missed receiving because he fell? So are you saying if Matthews receives this, then it was a pass and not a clearing play?

What?

Marner looks up before flipping the puck right at Matthews.. except its short and a perfect pass to the opponent who was able to pick it up at full speed and come the other way while Toronto's defense was not set.

 

[Antropovsky]

Here is a blogger who examines Marners advanced stats during his hot streak last year and explains Marner's stats generally are not elite level:

Mitch Marner’s scoring-filled 2022 is not really backed up by the underlying numbers

The Maple Leafs got a pretty nice present for Christmas. No, not just...

theleafsnation.com

Here's Sportsnet Andrew Berkshire explaining in 2019 why Marner wasn't at the same level as Tavares./Matthews:

Sportsnet.ca NHL author Andrew Berkshire joined Starting Lineup to explain why he doesn’t think Mitch Marner is worth Auston Matthews or Tavares'svares money.



Based on advanced stats, it appears the evidence supports a debate on whether Marner at 11 million is worthwhile.... and has done so for years.

Yet ... There are certain posters who attack people who doubt Marner's pay relative to his on-ice contributions.... (and they have done this for going on 4 years now). BUT strangely, they won't respond to advanced stats bloggers and sportswriters have posted that say he isn't among the elite (but is paid like one).

 

[Doublerum1975]

Here is a blogger who examines Marners advanced stats during his hot streak last year and explains Marner's stats generally are not elite level:

Mitch Marner’s scoring-filled 2022 is not really backed up by the underlying numbers

The Maple Leafs got a pretty nice present for Christmas. No, not just...

theleafsnation.com

Here's Sportsnet Andrew Berkshire explaining in 2019 why Marner wasn't at the same level as Tavares./Matthews:

Sportsnet.ca NHL author Andrew Berkshire joined Starting Lineup to explain why he doesn’t think Mitch Marner is worth Auston Matthews or Tavares'svares money.



Based on advanced stats, it appears the evidence supports a debate on whether Marner at 11 million is worthwhile.... and has done so for years.

Yet ... There are certain posters who attack people who doubt Marner's pay relative to his on-ice contributions.... (and they have done this for going on 4 years now). BUT strangely, they won't respond to advanced stats bloggers and sportswriters have posted that say he isn't among the elite (but is paid like one).

Why don't you just leave this thread maybe you can't read it says appreciation we don't care what you think or some blogger

 

[meefer]

Here is a blogger who examines Marners advanced stats during his hot streak last year and explains Marner's stats generally are not elite level:

Mitch Marner’s scoring-filled 2022 is not really backed up by the underlying numbers

The Maple Leafs got a pretty nice present for Christmas. No, not just...

theleafsnation.com

Here's Sportsnet Andrew Berkshire explaining in 2019 why Marner wasn't at the same level as Tavares./Matthews:

Sportsnet.ca NHL author Andrew Berkshire joined Starting Lineup to explain why he doesn’t think Mitch Marner is worth Auston Matthews or Tavares'svares money.



Based on advanced stats, it appears the evidence supports a debate on whether Marner at 11 million is worthwhile.... and has done so for years.

Yet ... There are certain posters who attack people who doubt Marner's pay relative to his on-ice contributions.... (and they have done this for going on 4 years now). BUT strangely, they won't respond to advanced stats bloggers and sportswriters have posted that say he isn't among the elite (but is paid like one).

While using Hobart's analysis from 9 months ago may have some merit when discussing Marner's play, I'd argue going back to a Berkshire spot (who I like) from what I suspect is the 2018/9 season, is silly unless you're supporting it with more current info from the same analyst. This is the 22/23 season, not 4 years ago.

 

[Antropovsky]

While using Hobart's analysis from 9 months ago may have some merit when discussing Marner's play, I'd argue going back to a Berkshire spot (who I like) from what I suspect is the 2018/9 season, is silly unless you're supporting it with more current info from the same analyst. This is the 22/23 season, not 4 years ago.

It's more a showing that historically Marner hadn't actually been elite. Dating back to 2019. Also certain posters point to that season when Marner played with Tavares and indicate Marner was propping Tavares up... Who is unfair to Tavares. The stats actually said Tavares had the elite numbers, and despite having great offensive number his underlying numbers weren't elite.

 

[Notsince67]

Here is a blogger who examines Marners advanced stats during his hot streak last year and explains Marner's stats generally are not elite level:

Mitch Marner’s scoring-filled 2022 is not really backed up by the underlying numbers

The Maple Leafs got a pretty nice present for Christmas. No, not just...

theleafsnation.com

Here's Sportsnet Andrew Berkshire explaining in 2019 why Marner wasn't at the same level as Tavares./Matthews:

Sportsnet.ca NHL author Andrew Berkshire joined Starting Lineup to explain why he doesn’t think Mitch Marner is worth Auston Matthews or Tavares'svares money.



Based on advanced stats, it appears the evidence supports a debate on whether Marner at 11 million is worthwhile.... and has done so for years.

Yet ... There are certain posters who attack people who doubt Marner's pay relative to his on-ice contributions.... (and they have done this for going on 4 years now). BUT strangely, they won't respond to advanced stats bloggers and sportswriters have posted that say he isn't among the elite (but is paid like one).

I did a post long ago describing the problem with berkshire's definition of high danger passes. You should look it up and educate yourself instead of spouting bullshit from a random Google query that you spend zero time investigating. Basically its crap and is why he is no longer doing the advanced analytics circuit.

 

[notdoneyet]

None of them took "team friendly deals". They just weren't as good when they signed. The argument basically equates to being upset at Marner for being so good at such a young age and preventing us from drastically underpaying him.

We did under pay him. The first three years Lou screwed him with bonuses. Why wouldn’t he get everything he deserved.

 

[Teeder Keon]

God I can’t stand talking about Salaries and money when it comes to sports
I’m so glad I come from an era when nobody cared and it wasn’t discussed
Just enjoy your team and the crest .

 

[Gabriel426]

God I can’t stand talking about Salaries and money when it comes to sports
I’m so glad I come from an era when nobody cared and it wasn’t discussed
Just enjoy your team and the crest .

I don’t think people care if there is no cap. Kind of like Baseball where teams will frequently paid half or more of the players salaries to let him play elsewhere or not play at all.

 

[Antropovsky]

I did a post long ago describing the problem with berkshire's definition of high danger passes. You should look it up and educate yourself instead of spouting bullshit from a random Google query that you spend zero time investigating. Basically its crap and is why he is no longer doing the advanced analytics circuit.

Appreciate the insight... why don't you do a one-sentence summary of the problem with his review. Or do you not recall what you said?

Also, what about the other blogger's post? You seemed to have missed posting your thoughts on it. The blogger's post was from last year and is more relevant. Do you disagree with his methods too? Does your research show otherwise? Do you have research to cite?

 

[Notsince67]

Appreciate the insight... why don't you do a one-sentence summary of the problem with his review. Or do you not recall what you said?

Also, what about the other blogger's post? You seemed to have missed posting your thoughts on it. The blogger's post was from last year and is more relevant. Do you disagree with his methods too? Does your research show otherwise? Do you have research to cite?

One sentence? He fails to include the most dangerous passes in hockey called royal road passes...a pass that marner uses extensively. I have no argument over a Matthews comparison other than the comparative impact of two such elite players have a bigger error bar than the differential. Certainly not definintive from a statistical perspective though people would likely argue the eye test likely proves it in most cases, if not this year

 

[DarkKnight]

I love how people are so obtuse they don’t realize the nitpicking while he’s tearing it up really says more about them than their target. Embarrassed for you.

 

[WTFMAN99]

He has a point in the season where things change.

Last year, he got injured and came back and went on a massive heater.

This year, once he got separated from Matthews, he looks much better.

 

[DarkKnight]

Really good article on how they support each other and their mutual assaults on the Leaf record books.



“The first two tries, I was like, ‘What are you doing? Just put it in the net and let’s go home.” Matthews on the empty netter, too funny.

 

[ACC1224]

Really good article on how they support each other and their mutual assaults on the Leaf record books.



“The first two tries, I was like, ‘What are you doing? Just put it in the net and let’s go home.” Matthews on the empty netter, too funny.

Yeah there doesn't seem like there is any resentment between the two. Here's to hoping they both retire as Leafs!

 

[Dekes For Days]

....so it wasn't a pass, it was a clearing attempt? But a clearing attempt that Matthews missed receiving because he fell? So are you saying if Matthews receives this, then it was a pass and not a clearing play?

It's a clearing play either way. He flipped the puck out to center ice to clear the zone and ease the pressure. Directing your clear towards where your teammate is going is pretty normal.

Here is a blogger who examines Marners advanced stats during his hot streak last year and explains Marner's stats generally are not elite level:

Mitch Marner’s scoring-filled 2022 is not really backed up by the underlying numbers

The Maple Leafs got a pretty nice present for Christmas. No, not just...

theleafsnation.com

Here's Sportsnet Andrew Berkshire explaining in 2019 why Marner wasn't at the same level as Tavares./Matthews:
Sportsnet.ca NHL author Andrew Berkshire joined Starting Lineup to explain why he doesn’t think Mitch Marner is worth Auston Matthews or Tavares'svares money.

This is a great example of how not to use and interpret advanced analytics.

I don't know why anybody would listen to anything Berkshire has to say in the first place, especially in regards to Marner. He has an insane anti-Marner bias, and is the guy who argued that, among other things, Meier was a better player than him. He got laughed out of the analytics space for a reason. His entire argument is citing one cherry picked 5v5 microstat that conveniently can't be verified from one season 4 years ago that still had Marner as elite anyway, and then spouting a bunch of unsupported, opinion-based nonsense.

As for the article, not only is it from the middle of the season (and as such, conveniently ignores his blazing hot second half of the season), but it also looks at really arbitrary things. I don't know why they would attempt to evaluate Marner by the number of goals he's individually expected to score per 60. That's such a random thing to look at, especially for a player who is primarily a playmaker. By this same logic, we would conclude that Mangiapane is better than Gaudreau, Taylor Raddysh is better than Patrick Kane, Nichuskin is better than Mackinnon, Reinhart is better than Barkov, Acciari is better than Huberdeau, Hunt is better than Panarin, Beauvillier is better than Barzal, Guentzel/Rust are better than Crosby and Malkin, Perry is the best Tampa player, etc. That's not how you utilize that stat...

Then it moves into GAR/WAR, and issues with GAR/WAR aside, and the fact that it's all paywall-blocked aside, and the fact that it excludes Marner's best portion of the season aside, and the fact that it still has him as an elite player anyway aside, it also seems to ignore the impact of Marner playing ~20% less games than his peers at that point. Funny enough, Evolving Hockey projected Marner at the 5th highest GAR for this season.

Over the past 3 years, Marner is #3 in the league in 5v5 points, #2 in the league in 5v5 points per game, and #1 in the league in 5v5 points per 60. At the top of the league in scoring chances for, high danger chances for, and expected goals for. At the top of the league with a ridiculously elite 59.33 xGF%. Elite offensively. Elite defensively. Elite on the PP. Elite on the PK. One would really have to grasp at straws to try and ignore how incredible this player is.

 

[IPS]

I'm triggered at how well Marner is doing.

 

[Notsince67]

I'm triggered at how well Marner is doing.

Today's hero, tomorrow's bum. That's how it works in Leafland. No worries. The season is young.

 

[Mess]

I'm triggered at how well Marner is doing.

Fun fact:

With Marner's impressive consecutive game points streak he is on pace and projected for 26 goals 69 assists and 95 points in 82 games with a +13 +/-.

Interestingly last year Marner missed 10 games to injury and only played 72 ..

He finished with 35 goals 62 assists 97 points & +23 +/- in only 72 games. (in 10 less games).

Marner statistically is actually underperforming last year points pace, despite his consecutive points streak.

Curious to know which season Leaf fans believe is better for Marner his current one or his previous one? More consistent or more productive?

 

[IPS]

Fun fact:

View attachment 616045

With Marner's impressive consecutive game points streak he is on pace and projected for 26 goals 69 assists and 95 points in 82 games with a +13 +/-.

Interestingly last year Marner missed 10 games to injury and only played 72 ..

View attachment 616047

He finished with 35 goals 62 assists 97 points & +23 +/- in only 72 games. (in 10 less games).

Marner statistically is actually underperforming last year points pace, despite his consecutive points streak.

Curious to know which season Leaf fans believe is better for Marner his current one or his previous one? More consistent or more productive?

I think he's better this year in terms of dominating the ice while he's on.