Prospect Info: Marlies/Prospects Thread - 2021/22 PART III

[kerk]

red jersey but he's alive

 

[Morgs]

The Kokkonen and Kral placement are at worst justifiable (I don't agree with it), and Miettinen being that high despite him not improving this season is obviously due to his obsession with him and it was obvious he'd be ranked a little high.

But the Holmberg placement seems.... awful. He talks about him like he's a big fan, quotes essentially how he's looking like one of the best players in the 3rd best league in the world and then goes "but his age". Uh dude, you have Abruzzese, who's .25 years younger, playing in a significantly worse league ranked 5th and his skills have a far less chance of translating to a pro game. I don't get it (not Abruzzese's placement, Holmberg's)

 

[Byron Bitz]

Wheeler’s 2022 NHL prospect pool rankings: No. 15 Toronto Maple Leafs

RANK	PLAYER	POS.	AGE	TEAM
1	Nick Robertson	LW	20	Marlies
2	Matthew Knies	LW	19	U. of Minnesota
3	Topi Niemela	RHD	19	Karpat
4	Rodion Amirov	LW/RW	20	Ufa
5	Nick Abruzzese	C/LW	22	Harvard
6	Roni Hirvonen	C/LW	20	HIFK
7	Veeti Miettinen	RW/LW	20	St. Cloud State
8	Mikhail Abramov	C/RW	20	Marlies
9	Alex Steeves	C/LW	21	Marlies
10	Ryan Tverberg	RW	19	UConn
11	Ty Voit	RW	18	Sarnia
12	William Villeneuve	RHD	19	Saint John
13	Semyon Der-Arguchintsev	C/RW	21	Marlies
14	Pontus Holmberg	C/LW	22	Vaxjo
15	Dmitri Ovchinnikov	LW	19	Novosibirsk
16	Joseph Woll	G	23	Marlies
17	Filip Kral	LHD	22	Marlies
18	Mikko Kokkonen	LHD	20	Pelicans
19	Artur Akhtyamov	G	20	Kazan
20	Vyacheslav Peksa	G	19	Kazan
HM	Axel Rindell	RHD	21	Karpat/Jukurit
HM	Joe Miller	C/W	19	Chicago

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The top 4 are interchangeable to me, I think they are all A level prospects, also, Maybe we should just trade for a good goalie prospect since we can’t seem to draft one

 

[diehardleafsfan9878]

The top 4 are interchangeable to me, I think they are all A level prospects, also, Maybe we should just trade for a good goalie prospect since we can’t seem to draft one

Trading for a goalie prospect wouldn't change anything. Unless you can provide a list of prospects who are better than the guys we have, who would actually be available.

 

[Fogelhund]

Trading for a goalie prospect wouldn't change anything. Unless you can provide a list of prospects who are better than the guys we have, who would actually be available.

I'd trade for Nico Daws... not sure if NJD would... Would probably cost too much anyway.

They need a goalie right now... I'd send them Mrazek, if we could find a suitable, lower cost adequate backup today. Maybe MAF at 50% for the rest of the year?

 

[uncleben]

I'd trade for Nico Daws... not sure if NJD would... Would probably cost too much anyway.

They need a goalie right now... I'd send them Mrazek, if we could find a suitable, lower cost adequate backup today. Maybe MAF at 50% for the rest of the year?

I've got nothing against Mrazek so far, but Mrazek out @3.8 and Fleury in @3.5 would be entertaining...

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

I'd trade for Nico Daws... not sure if NJD would... Would probably cost too much anyway.

They need a goalie right now... I'd send them Mrazek, if we could find a suitable, lower cost adequate backup today. Maybe MAF at 50% for the rest of the year?

2 goalie prospects I like are Devon Levi and Dylan Garand.

Levi was a stud for Team Canada. Currently is 16-7-1 with a .948 sv% for Northeastern U

Garand is 20-6 with a .927 sv% for Kamloops. I wanted him in the draft and he went a few spots ahead of us before we selected Ahktyamov.

Neither guy is an Askarov, Wallstedt calibre prospect and I wouldn't exactly say they are any more likely to be better than what we have. They are goalies that I like though if were to trade for one.

 

[diehardleafsfan9878]

I'd trade for Nico Daws... not sure if NJD would... Would probably cost too much anyway.

They need a goalie right now... I'd send them Mrazek, if we could find a suitable, lower cost adequate backup today. Maybe MAF at 50% for the rest of the year?

Daws is awful. And even if he's not, he is not an upgrade on Woll, Kallgren, etc.

 

[VanW27]

Why would you ever trade for a goalie prospect, outside needing one to fill a specific spot in your organization? Even established NHL goalies are voodoo, let alone prospects.

 

[diehardleafsfan9878]

2 goalie prospects I like are Devon Levi and Dylan Garand.

Levi was a stud for Team Canada. Currently is 16-7-1 with a .948 sv% for Northeastern U

Garand is 20-6 with a .927 sv% for Kamloops. I wanted him in the draft and he went a few spots ahead of us before we selected Ahktyamov.

Neither guy is an Askarov, Wallstedt calibre prospect and I wouldn't exactly say they are any more likely to be better than what we have. They are goalies that I like though if were to trade for one.

No chance Levi would be available, NY would probably trade Garand, but I don't see him as an improvement over what we already have.

 

[Leafs1991]

Has anyone watched Miettinen this year? Haven't seen him get talked about much and he has a slightly better year so far with a .8ppg compared to .77 last season.

It's crazy how good the prospects from the most recent draft are performing that I forgot all about this guy.

I think Toronto is ranked so low because their prospects don't have draft pedigree. I could easily see them closer to 10th overall in the league but thats just me.

 

[Twine Tickler]

It's crazy how good the prospects from the most recent draft are performing that I forgot all about this guy.

I think Toronto is ranked so low because their prospects don't have draft pedigree. I could easily see them closer to 10th overall in the league but thats just me.

I completely agree man.

For example, Is there really that much of a difference between Cole Perfetti and a healthy Nick Robertson??

If there is it is marginally IMO. Yet I can almost guarantee you that Wheeler has Perfetti as an A-Grade prospect vs. (A-)-Grade like he did for Robertson.

There 100% is an element of this guy can't possibly be a top prospect, he was selected in the 2nd round, meanwhile Knies, Robertson, and Neimela are easily 1st rounders in a redraft of their draft classes.

I completely understand I have a bias to all of this as well, I guess it is just encouraging to see Florida, Boston, and TB all behind the Leafs in his rankings. Even the Sens, which is nice to see lol. I know most of their prospects have "graduated" but that's not overly encouraging for them given how they are still dogshit.

future is bright Leafs Nation!!!

 

[Morgs]

I completely agree man.

For example, Is there really that much of a difference between Cole Perfetti and a healthy Nick Robertson??

If there is it is marginally IMO. Yet I can almost guarantee you that Wheeler has Perfetti as an A-Grade prospect vs. (A-)-Grade like he did for Robertson.

There 100% is an element of this guy can't possibly be a top prospect, he was selected in the 2nd round, meanwhile Knies, Robertson, and Neimela are easily 1st rounders in a redraft of their draft classes.

I completely understand I have a bias to all of this as well, I guess it is just encouraging to see Florida, Boston, and TB all behind the Leafs in his rankings. Even the Sens, which is nice to see lol. I know most of their prospects have "graduated" but that's not overly encouraging for them given how they are still dogshit.

future is bright Leafs Nation!!!

Yes. Cole Perfetti is arguably the best forward outside the NHL right now in any capacity. Wouldn't have Robby anywhere near that group, but he's obviously underrated due to injury, draft position, size, etc. The 2020 draft was so damn stacked at the top man. I love Amirov, but he was the 1st guy in my 4th tier. We JUST missed out on some elite guys like Perfetti, Rossi, Jarvis, Lundell, etc. So sad.

 

[francis246]

Yes. Cole Perfetti is arguably the best forward outside the NHL right now in any capacity. Wouldn't have Robby anywhere near that group, but he's obviously underrated due to injury, draft position, size, etc. The 2020 draft was so damn stacked at the top man. I love Amirov, but he was the 1st guy in my 4th tier. We JUST missed out on some elite guys like Perfetti, Rossi, Jarvis, Lundell, etc. So sad.

agreed perfetti is one of the best players not playing the nhl. He has an elite shot. Seth Jarvis has surprised me, he’s so good

 

[TML1967]

Yes. Cole Perfetti is arguably the best forward outside the NHL right now in any capacity. Wouldn't have Robby anywhere near that group, but he's obviously underrated due to injury, draft position, size, etc. The 2020 draft was so damn stacked at the top man. I love Amirov, but he was the 1st guy in my 4th tier. We JUST missed out on some elite guys like Perfetti, Rossi, Jarvis, Lundell, etc. So sad.

You mean drafted forward prospect right?
He had 3 points in 9 games in the NHL, and was under a ppg in the AHL. Lets not make him the next McJesus.

Once we get into undrafted prospects, there are a few I think could outplay him today.
From pure talent, Bedard Michkov Wright etc.

If we get into guys just playing in the KHL/SHL at the higher levels, they can easily be better than he is right now.

Kuzmenko is not a prospect (but technically a rookie) by any means, but his 53 points in 45 KHL games has to mean something. At minimum its much more impressive.
Rashevsk is having a statistically better season and hes on the same team as Perfetti.

Perfetti is good and will probably have a long and productive career, but he by no means is the best forward outside the NHL.

 

[supermann_98]

Again, I'm crazy confused as to why we're comparing him to Caufield though. The fact is Caufield was elite in the NCAA despite his defensive inability. He was drafted to be a Phil Kessel type player, and he has the ability to be that at the NHL level. If Miettinen had the same raw ability as him we're talking about one of the best prospects in hockey. Comparing their production is asinine as a measure for whether or not Miettinen will be successful in pro.

The fact he's been less offensively proficient (or at least similar, I thought his PPG was above last seasons?) is showing that we might not have the "steal" we thought we did last year. He still has plenty of time to develop, but the fact he's not improved a measurable amount after a dominant freshman season is bad news for his future prospects. It could be due to him not getting an increase in minutes, and really not playing with anyone special, but the fact is he was already decently old for a freshman last year, and he needs to establish himself as an elite player in the NCAA for the Leafs to want to give him a pro contract. He has the skill and ability to be a NHL player, guy just needs to prove it.

Agreed, if anyone should be compared to Caufield its Robertson, not our 6th round pick.

If we compare most 1st/2nd round picks to the 6th rounders in their respective classes I'm pretty sure after a season or two we'll find the 6th rounders have some ground to make up on the high draft picks in terms of production ... just going out on a limb here

 

[Twine Tickler]

Yes. Cole Perfetti is arguably the best forward outside the NHL right now in any capacity. Wouldn't have Robby anywhere near that group, but he's obviously underrated due to injury, draft position, size, etc. The 2020 draft was so damn stacked at the top man. I love Amirov, but he was the 1st guy in my 4th tier. We JUST missed out on some elite guys like Perfetti, Rossi, Jarvis, Lundell, etc. So sad.

Ya that's kind of what I am getting at though, Pre-draft we would all agree that Perfetti, Rossi, Jarvis and Lundell were phenomenal players. And they continue to look that way as well. Whereas a Nick Robertson did not come with that same praise/reputation. Instead of maintaining the hype, Nick had to create the hype that surrounds him today. Which is exactly why some, including all of us view him as a lesser prospect than some of the aforementioned players. Unless the high draft picks regress post draft, we will always give the nod to the incumbent in most cases. Wherein, no matter how well Nick performs, even if it was historic, he will always place second behind these higher drafted prospects.

I fully recognize Nick was 2019 selection, whereas Cole is a 2020 selection, so choosing to compare those 2 prospects may not be the best example. But from 2018-19 their developmental paths were the exact same. 2 years OHL, followed by 1 year AHL. And I do agree, I think Cole is the better of the 2 players, but what I am saying is that it is far closer than some may suggest.

Even though Cole is technically a full hockey year behind Nick, he is only less than 4 months younger in age.

Statistically speaking, they are almost a spitting image of one another, all the way down to their WJC participations. Again, there will always be the argument of well Nick's numbers don't align to Cole's as we'd always technically be comparing Cole's production to Nick's +1 year of "development"

But that is the exact reason Nick fell to where he did. People were comparing his D -1 year to his peers in the 2019 class, all the while completely disregarding the fact that Nick was one of the youngest players in the draft. Truthfully Nick more appropriately compared to Late 01's and Early 02's than he did early 01's. And early birthdates make up a lot of those first 2 rounds.

I am not trying to argue with you on whether Cole is the better player or not, I think we can all agree he is. But my point has always been that:
A) Nick is really not that far behind.
B) From a production standpoint, they are almost identical (disregarding Draft year, just basing on season)
C) Regardless of Draft year or not, they both appear to have a very similar ceiling IMO.

So why would we view Cole as a A-grade prospect vs. Nick as a (A-)-Grade prospect? To me their impacts in the NHL will likely be very similar IMO.

the only real differentiator for me is that Cole is a center, and has far more value as a result.

 

[zeke]

It's funny how down people can get on a player due to injury.

Cole and Nick are both short. They're pretty much the exact same age.

This year

Cole: AHL 0.35gpg/0.88ppg ----- NHL 0.10gpg/0.30ppg --- WJC .50gpg/3.00ppg
Nick: AHL 0.00gpg/1.00ppg ----- NHL ---

20-21

Cole: AHL 0.28gpg/0.81ppg --- WJC 0.29gpg/0.86ppg --- NHL ---
Nick: AHL 0.24gpg/0.76ppg --- WJC ----------------------------- NHL 0.00gpg/0.17ppg

19-20

Cole: OHL 0.61gpg/1.82ppg --- WJC ---------------------------- NHL ---
Nick: OHL 1.20gpg/1.87ppg --- WJC 0.40gpg/1.00ppg ---NHL .25gpg/.25ppg

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Ya that's kind of what I am getting at though, Pre-draft we would all agree that Perfetti, Rossi, Jarvis and Lundell were phenomenal players. And they continue to look that way as well. Whereas a Nick Robertson did not come with that same praise/reputation. Instead of maintaining the hype, Nick had to create the hype that surrounds him today. Which is exactly why some, including all of us view him as a lesser prospect than some of the aforementioned players. Unless the high draft picks regress post draft, we will always give the nod to the incumbent in most cases. Wherein, no matter how well Nick performs, even if it was historic, he will always place second behind these higher drafted prospects.

I fully recognize Nick was 2019 selection, whereas Cole is a 2020 selection, so choosing to compare those 2 prospects may not be the best example. But from 2018-19 their developmental paths were the exact same. 2 years OHL, followed by 1 year AHL. And I do agree, I think Cole is the better of the 2 players, but what I am saying is that it is far closer than some may suggest.

Even though Cole is technically a full hockey year behind Nick, he is only less than 4 months younger in age.

Statistically speaking, they are almost a spitting image of one another, all the way down to their WJC participations. Again, there will always be the argument of well Nick's numbers don't align to Cole's as we'd always technically be comparing Cole's production to Nick's +1 year of "development"

But that is the exact reason Nick fell to where he did. People were comparing his D -1 year to his peers in the 2019 class, all the while completely disregarding the fact that Nick was one of the youngest players in the draft. Truthfully Nick more appropriately compared to Late 01's and Early 02's than he did early 01's. And early birthdates make up a lot of those first 2 rounds.

I am not trying to argue with you on whether Cole is the better player or not, I think we can all agree he is. But my point has always been that:
A) Nick is really not that far behind.
B) From a production standpoint, they are almost identical (disregarding Draft year, just basing on season)
C) Regardless of Draft year or not, they both appear to have a very similar ceiling IMO.

So why would we view Cole as a A-grade prospect vs. Nick as a (A-)-Grade prospect? To me their impacts in the NHL will likely be very similar IMO.

the only real differentiator for me is that Cole is a center, and has far more value as a result.

If I'm not mistaken, Robertson also fell because he had a broken hand at the beginning of his draft year and I think I remember him saying he even played some games with some sort of brace on which restricted his mobility a little bit. It's possible he could've been a 1st rounder that year.

 

[Morgs]

Ya that's kind of what I am getting at though, Pre-draft we would all agree that Perfetti, Rossi, Jarvis and Lundell were phenomenal players. And they continue to look that way as well. Whereas a Nick Robertson did not come with that same praise/reputation. Instead of maintaining the hype, Nick had to create the hype that surrounds him today. Which is exactly why some, including all of us view him as a lesser prospect than some of the aforementioned players. Unless the high draft picks regress post draft, we will always give the nod to the incumbent in most cases. Wherein, no matter how well Nick performs, even if it was historic, he will always place second behind these higher drafted prospects.

I fully recognize Nick was 2019 selection, whereas Cole is a 2020 selection, so choosing to compare those 2 prospects may not be the best example. But from 2018-19 their developmental paths were the exact same. 2 years OHL, followed by 1 year AHL. And I do agree, I think Cole is the better of the 2 players, but what I am saying is that it is far closer than some may suggest.

Even though Cole is technically a full hockey year behind Nick, he is only less than 4 months younger in age.

Statistically speaking, they are almost a spitting image of one another, all the way down to their WJC participations. Again, there will always be the argument of well Nick's numbers don't align to Cole's as we'd always technically be comparing Cole's production to Nick's +1 year of "development"

But that is the exact reason Nick fell to where he did. People were comparing his D -1 year to his peers in the 2019 class, all the while completely disregarding the fact that Nick was one of the youngest players in the draft. Truthfully Nick more appropriately compared to Late 01's and Early 02's than he did early 01's. And early birthdates make up a lot of those first 2 rounds.

I am not trying to argue with you on whether Cole is the better player or not, I think we can all agree he is. But my point has always been that:
A) Nick is really not that far behind.
B) From a production standpoint, they are almost identical (disregarding Draft year, just basing on season)
C) Regardless of Draft year or not, they both appear to have a very similar ceiling IMO.

So why would we view Cole as a A-grade prospect vs. Nick as a (A-)-Grade prospect? To me their impacts in the NHL will likely be very similar IMO.

the only real differentiator for me is that Cole is a center, and has far more value as a result.

I mean it's really besides the point as they're both excellent prospects and *should* have futures in the top-6. But for me the main difference is translatability. I see Perfetti having a similar impact/style to Nylander where I see Robby having an impact/style more similar to Konecny. One is a star, one is very good. One despite size won't have issues in the NHL, the other's playstyle is usually played by much bigger guys and there are legitimate questions about whether their body can handle what makes them effective.

Again, it's my personal opinion though and I'm realllllly high on Perfetti.

 

[zeke]

I mean it's really besides the point as they're both excellent prospects and *should* have futures in the top-6. But for me the main difference is translatability. I see Perfetti having a similar impact/style to Nylander where I see Robby having an impact/style more similar to Konecny. One is a star, one is very good. One despite size won't have issues in the NHL, the other's playstyle is usually played by much bigger guys and there are legitimate questions about whether their body can handle what makes them effective.

Again, it's my personal opinion though and I'm realllllly high on Perfetti.

Age 19

Cole: AHL 29gl/72pt pace ---- NHL 8gl/25pt pace
Willy: AHL 39gl/97pt pace ---- NHL 22gl/50pt pace

 

[Twine Tickler]

I mean it's really besides the point as they're both excellent prospects and *should* have futures in the top-6. But for me the main difference is translatability. I see Perfetti having a similar impact/style to Nylander where I see Robby having an impact/style more similar to Konecny. One is a star, one is very good. One despite size won't have issues in the NHL, the other's playstyle is usually played by much bigger guys and there are legitimate questions about whether their body can handle what makes them effective.

Again, it's my personal opinion though and I'm realllllly high on Perfetti.

Fair enough

It's not that I am not high on Perfetti, I think he is a great player and was a great selection for the Jets, I just think there is a general lack of respect towards our top 4 prospects in comparison to some of these other "Top Prospects". Especially when it comes to Wheelers article.

I mean the way I see it is Wheeler values WPG's pool more which consists of Perfetti, Lucious, and Heinola over our top 4.

I won't pretend to know a great deal beyond those 3 prospects for WPG, but if that is their top end prospects, I really don't see how our 4 are not better. Because again, why we ranked 15th was because of our lack of top end talent. So in this example, I am comparing the top end talent from our team at 15th position vs a team that has yet to be ranked.

I know for myself, I would take our 4 over those 3 any day of the week, and I am fairly confident I would not be alone.

I totally understand that these things are completely objective, and wheeler still does a really good job at writing up each teams prospects, so I am not trying to insinuate he doesn't know what he is talking about. Just more or less think our top prospects don't get the respect they deserve almost exclusively because of where they were selected. I mean, of Wheelers latest top 50 prospects article, 43 of them were first rounders. Of course they were 1st rounders for a reason, and you'd expect that top 50 to have a heavy dose of 1st rounders. But only 7 outside of the first round make that list???

I am not too sure TBH

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Yeah I like Perfetti but I can't say I have ever seen future star potential when I watch him and he absolutely is not the best player outside the NHL right now.

 

[aingefan]

Are the Marlies on TV anywhere tonight?

If not, anyone have a link?

 

[diehardleafsfan9878]

Is there a starting lineup or starting goalies for tonight?